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This is the first Archived Forum which was active between 17th April 2007 and 1st March February 2012

 

Latest post 01-20-2010 8:55 AM by Flappo The Grate. 181 replies.
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  • 12-23-2008 3:59 AM In reply to

    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    This is a very interesting topic. I've always been fascinated by B&O as a kid and recently bought a Beocenter 9000 off an auction site, it was like a dream come true. Somehow, I don't think today's B&O products are still so appealing. However, there is still a LOT of potential in the brand:

    • B&O have a rock solid reputation in design. When people see the Beocenter 9000, they can't believe the design is 20 years old. The words 'B&O' are enough to get 'ooohs' and 'aaahs' as a reaction. The brand name is very very strong.
    • B&O were pioneers in touch technology. Today, touch technology is hotter than ever thanks to Apple. Why not further develop the idea of touch interfaces?
    • B&O are also pioneers in movement detection technology. A lot of people associate B&O with 'the sliding doors when your hand comes near'. Why not elaborate that idea? Say you move your hand in front of the screen and can flip through your digital albums?
    • B&O are the masters of linking audio and video. This idea is very much actual, but nowadays the solutions B&O offers seem to become less flexible in an opensource world. B&O should make the linking wireless (in uncompressed quality!) and as easy as Apple's airport technology, and open to other brands.
    • B&O has perfect control over its sales channels.

    To me personally, I would really like to see B&O cooperate with Apple. Apple has a lot of experience in user software and interface and can take B&O to the next level in the digital era. A lot of existing B&O customers already use Apple products with B&O's ...

    Digital and software based stuff is one way to go, but why not reissue some of the classic designs?
    • Turntables are super popular among young people right now. Reissue the tangential Beograms in white with a USB connection and they'll sell like hot cakes.
    • Same for around-ear headphones: every hipster is wearing these nowadays. Where is the U70?
    • Imagine the Beocenter 9x00s or beosystem 2500-3000-... and Beosound 9000 with a built-in iPod dock, USB connections, touch interface that works with software and can be adapted to new technologies, ...
    • the classic Danish-design-look of wood and veneers in combination with aluminium fits perfectly with the vintage design trend. Brands like tivoli audio sell for shameful prices. B&O can take the upper part of that market very easily...
    Like Armani has Emporio Armani, B&O could as such add a 'diffusion line'. Say 'Bang & Olufsen Collection' ...

    In terms of pricing, the bottom line should be quality, and then the pricing should be in steps, starting from a decent, realistic level (so a twentysomething with an above average pay can afford it by saving a few months to half a year) to the level of top notch products like Beolab 5.

    I truly advise B&O's marketers to look into the lifestyles of their clients... they may be more varied than you think. I feel that B&O today is a brand for billionaires that want to buy slightly outdated products, whereas I remember B&O in the 80s to be ahead of its time, to have technologies that no other brand had. It's that 'magic touch' that needs to return. Think of Customer Lifetime Value, grab young people with exciting products and you can be their A/V brand of preference for the rest of their lives.
  • 12-23-2008 5:06 AM In reply to

    • moxxey
    • Top 25 Contributor
    • Joined on 04-14-2007
    • South West, UK
    • Posts 2,360
    • Bronze Member

    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    TWG:

    Armani-Jacket made in China says clearly: "Customer, thank you for beeing so dumb to give us your money for this!"

    Would you buy one of those pieces anymore? NO!!! I NEVER would!

    Two points here:

    1) You may have no choice, I'm afraid. Although Armani have always produced the majority for the clothes in Italy (suits will always be made in Italy), they are making more and more in China and will reduce their prices in 2009 as a result. More people will be bothered about the price reduction than a 'made in China' badge which you can only see if you look on the back of the label inside the clothes. It's not easy to see or find.

    2) I don't think it's fair to say that a customer is 'dumb' as they bought a product that was made in China. Most products are made in China - including Apple Mac Pro's, which cost nearly £2000. What is the alternative? Buy a Dell? Fair enough - but the 'made in China' isn't affecting Apple's sales. Manufacturers aren't stupid. They know people will buy from a brand as long as the price is fair and quality remains high. Whether they get home and see 'made in China' or not is another matter. Most people won't put that high on their priority list.

    I don't think you can go on a one-man crusade against where products are manufactured. It won't work. Why? As the majority of consumers are far more price conscious than you believe and will become more price conscious through 2009/2010.

  • 12-23-2008 8:16 AM In reply to

    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    @ apopboy

    very well put! i agree w/ everything you said!

    p.s. welcome to beoworld! 

    • B&o bottle opener
  • 12-23-2008 10:06 AM In reply to

    • Beobird
    • Top 150 Contributor
      Male
    • Joined on 04-19-2007
    • Netherlands
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    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    Never saw this topic, but I really like the ideas from the TS Smile. Just let the wind blow through the whole company and give it a new fresh start...

    We Can't Get Enough B&O Stuff...

  • 12-23-2008 10:08 AM In reply to

    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    Very well stated  apopboy.  However why would Apple have anything to do with B&O?  Apple may want B&O to use their software for a fee but Apple is really a mass market company.  Also I would like to point out that to the best of my knowledge, B&O have never gone retro and reissued a product.  Use of wood however would be an interesting design change.

    One of the things I like about B&O is not only the modernist designs but the surprise when a new product is released.  The design is usually unlike any other such as Beolab 5. 

    B&O has survived worse recessions and amazingly enough built their business during the great depression in the 1930's.

    B&O will have to do what many companies are doing during this situation  They are trying to conserve cash, close underperforming stores, and unfortunately some workers become redundant.  However it is also important to have a recovery strategy and a plan for the future.  Many of the suggestions in this thread reveal what real customers want.  I also think digital is the way to go for music and video.  The age of the spinning disk is coming to a close.  Lets hope Bang and Olufsen rises to the challenge! 

    Beosound 5 BL9 BC2 BL8000 Beovision 7 BL6002  BL11 

     

  • 12-23-2008 11:43 AM In reply to

    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    I think it would surprise people just how close we've come to re-releasing products. Turn tables are probably a little far-fetched, but there are several form factors which lend themselves to current technology that have made it further than I would have thought!

    I agree that the reintroduction of wood would be really something. I would guess we would see it on audio masters & television products, as I think we like the fact that our speakers are not wooden cabinets.

    I also have to say that unless Apple change the way they operate, nothing approaching a collaboration will ever come about. We're lucky to be able to pay them to sell our accessories in their stores!   

    There is scarcely anything in this world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey. - John Ruskin

  • 12-23-2008 11:52 AM In reply to

    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    TripEnglish:

    I agree that the reintroduction of wood would be really something. I would guess we would see it on audio masters & television products, as I think we like the fact that our speakers are not wooden cabinets.

    I can already imagine certain environments with a wooden flat panel TV. It will take a while before anyone else tries that, but glass and metal will be so 00's pretty soon...

    Regarding Apple, I also fail to see where the connection is - except that the same people seem to buy both. When was the last time Apple tried to integrate with anything?

    -mika

  • 12-23-2008 2:23 PM In reply to

    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    It's true that Apple is a mass market company. However, they are also in the high end range (specs and pricing), stretching to the lower end. But the cheapest computer you'll get from them, the Macbook, is still an amazing product of which the design is unlike anything else (especially the latest aluminium unibody). And they have cooperated with Nike for the Nike + product ... Imagine designer Jonathan Ive cooperating with B&O, now that would be amazing.

    Of course B&O can develop its own software and interfaces. But companies like Apple are setting the standard for these, and this very high level is what people will come to expect. It surely won't be easy to keep up! 

    On the re-issues: It's true that B&O should keep its innovative image and not become too 'retro'. However, design companies like Vitra also bring re-issues to the market without losing their leading innovative image. It should be possible ...

  • 12-23-2008 2:42 PM In reply to

    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    Here´s a Christmas contest. Find an official bit of communication from B&O, from the past two-three years, where Jacob Jensen and his contribution to the brand is highlighted ... find stores where the past is highlighted, and where you have working classic products.

    At some point, B&O ceased to remind potential customers of its heritage. To most younger customers, the brand might as well have dropped out of the sky yesterday. "Huh? What´s that?" Well, water under the bridge - several good suggestions in this thread, including rethinking the use of materials and product focus.

    Price isn´t an object, if the products achieve excellence, and the Apple story is proof of that. Most PC-detractors use the price as a point against Apple, while those who have converted can´t understand why they didn´t do so earlier. B&O should quietly step away from arenas where it can´t differentiate itself in a telling way, and stress those where it can. Quite straightforward, if you´re willing to accept where you are weak, and where your behavior and products are actually eroding the brand, not building it.

    Looking forward to the Jacob Jensen citations from recent years ... (it´s peculiar how he´s been disappeared.)

  • 12-23-2008 3:02 PM In reply to

    • Stan
    • Top 150 Contributor
    • Joined on 04-17-2007
    • Posts 593
    • Gold Member

    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    Funny, I was just going to write "with whom has Apple ever cooperated?"... and now I see they have actually cooperated with another company, once - Nike.  Although I'm not familiar with this Nike product, I assume it has something to do with shoes.  Shoes and computers - probably a good bet that they'll not be competing in the future...  But wait!... there's meaningful cooperation with apple selling B&O headphones in their stores Big Smile.  I would not hold my breath for real cooperation/integration, at least as long as King Jobs is running the show.  As many have stated, Apple is mass market, what do *they* get from opening their kimono to the Danes?  B&O probably sells as many systems in a year as Apple manufactures iPods in a day.

    Also, the quality of Apple products has suffered lately (if this is because they moved manufacturing to China or just got more successful is anybody's guess).  Read about the well documented logic board problems with the iBook G4.  I've also had the logic board (2x) and screen replaced (1x) in just over a year on my current Macbook Pro.  So far, the only issue with any of my B&O has been the control panel on the Beosound3... and I didn't have to buy an extended warrenty for 3 yrs of coverage.

    As much as I like my apple computers, I really, really do not want to see B&O try to be "more like apple".  I guess I'm more in agreement with 10%... I like my B&O physical, not virtual (there back on subject).  Niche, not mass market.  Tried and true, not jumping on the latest fad.

    Stan

  • 12-23-2008 3:10 PM In reply to

    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    apopboy:

    On the re-issues: It's true that B&O should keep its innovative image and not become too 'retro'. However, design companies like Vitra also bring re-issues to the market without losing their leading innovative image. It should be possible ...

    Re-issues could be possible.  I was thinking about what I would like re-issued and then I realized I had purchased a mint condition Beocenter 9500 this past year on Ebay.  I agree B&O would not do a turntable but how about a Beocenter 2200 that plays music from Beosound 5.

    This is not retro but I would like a high quality DAC that could be plugged into the SPDIF port on a Beomaster 5 or a Beosound 9000.  This DAC would be part of ML.  You could then use Beo4 and play better sounding music.  Many of us use a separate DACs today but have to use the AUX port on a Beocenter. 

    Many possibilities............ 

    Beosound 5 BL9 BC2 BL8000 Beovision 7 BL6002  BL11 

     

  • 12-23-2008 3:48 PM In reply to

    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    wonderfulelectric:

    You think B&O is like Apple? I bet to differ. I don't see B&O taking bold moves and creating new markets like what Apple did or even offer the level of quality at the price level that Apple is offering. I think B&O is more like Microsoft than anything else. B&O is more of a product of careful marketing and calculation. It is more cerebral than passion. B&O actually thought that it could get away with good branding and marketing alone.

    PS. I happen to own the Beolab 4s and it is kinda of a rip off. At this price you can cheap plastic housings, bad grounding and wiring. Beolab 4 is an original idea that has fallen into the wrong hands. Check out the Harman Kardon's GLA-55 : bulletproof acrylic and quality construction at a lower price.

    At the price level of the Beolab5s, you should be getting carbon fiber enclosures instead of the ABS plastics. Carbon fiber offers similar properties of being easily molded like plastics but of course it is way more inert. B&O has the advantage of manufacturing at the economy of scale unlike many boutique brands so in theory it should be offering way better construction and performance.  

    Just how well can you lay claim to the quality of your construction when you are using materials that all other mainstream brands are using?  

    I must point out that B&O really did make bold moves in the 80s and 90s particularly with the free reign they gave David Lewis their chief designer when it came to product design - the BS9000 being the classic example - 2 years extra they had to wait to produce it mainstream because David insisted he wanted the CD clamping mechanism to work ot his original concepts. In fact, this is a prime example of why I personally do love B&O as a company, they are willing to take risks. I find many of their products to be risky. The BS3 is another good example. At £500 I am sure there would be many other products that could compete with it, but in fact there weren't, at least not for me. From the moment I saw it I bought it minutes later. B&O had that 'magic' that encompasses many things from design - to uniqueness - through to build quality. I honeslty don't know any other companies that offer that.

    Simon.

  • 12-23-2008 4:34 PM In reply to

    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    soundproof:

    Here´s a Christmas contest. Find an official bit of communication from B&O, from the past two-three years, where Jacob Jensen and his contribution to the brand is highlighted ... find stores where the past is highlighted, and where you have working classic products.

    Spot on Soundproof. I switched between watching TV on my RF Avant tonight and listening to music through my Beomaster 8000, and though they were designed by Lewis and Jensen respectively, the design cues between the two make them so obviously B&O (big red LED displays, smoked glass, etc.) We could go on - I'm sure a Beosystem 4500 would look minty in a store next to, say, a BV7 for example.

    The only thing that worries me slightly though is that the stores would probably do a roaring trade in second hand items - after all, that same Beosystem could be hooked up to a pair of Lab 5s and work a treat ;)

    President, Beomaster 8000 Appreciation Society

  • 12-23-2008 4:36 PM In reply to

    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    the bs9000 is very beautiful but with wireless access to your lossless recordings easily available it's a bit outdated imo

    6 cd's when you can have 666 at the merest touch of an ipod touch ? 

    popgear is grate™

  • 12-23-2008 7:46 PM In reply to

    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    Well if Apple was 5-10 times the cost of a PC, as Beovisions are to their competition, I wouldn't buy Macs.

     

    They're good, but not that good. Nothing is worth 5-10 times the competition.

    Apple is about 1,5 to 2 times more expensive than the PC equivalent. If Beovisions where the same, or even 3 times more expensive I wouldn't hesitate. 

    Even if you got money, you don't want to overpay. We had a renaissance in our real estate business in Finland especially in our summer cottage/house sales in Finland the last 5-6 years, prices went up, we (finns) thought that we can sell our estates to rich Russians for a price well over the medium. Well this certainly worked for some, but I've been selling a large estate myself for some time, and it's in the price range that only wealthy people will afford it, and my perception of the so called "newly rich" Russians is that they are very well informed of value for money and worth, and many of them have gotten their money fairly easy, but nonetheless  they don't go spend if on anything and everything just like that... It have to feel right and indeed be right. 

    -Andreas

     

    BLab5, BLab5000, BLab8000, BV10, BS9000, BS3, Beo5, Beo4, BLink1000, BLink5000, BLink7000, A2, A8, Form2

     

     

     

  • 12-23-2008 8:11 PM In reply to

    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    Soundproof you read my mind! North American dealers are particularly sensitive to the brand's unwillingness to discuss its heritage since the company has never really established itself here. Seems to be that a Spark To Icon book on the BeoTheater coffee table is enough. The fact that a modest investment can't be made to establish a few working products, as you've suggested, or that we struggle to produce the most homogenous advertising when nearly 9 decades of unique history are right there for the exploitation is beyond reason.

    Are you listening Struer?

    There is scarcely anything in this world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey. - John Ruskin

  • 12-24-2008 3:08 AM In reply to

    • pehre
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on 04-16-2007
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    • Bronze Member

    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    I would add a Beosystem 1 with iPod-Dock, SD-card slot, a wifi interface and the possibilty for accu-power
  • 12-24-2008 3:53 AM In reply to

    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    pehre:
    I would add a Beosystem 1 with iPod-Dock, SD-card slot, a wifi interface and the possibilty for accu-power

     

    Adding an iPod dock with the facility to control the iPod via a Beo4 would be a good place to start, and should be technically fairly straightforward. The price would still be very affordable compared to much of the range and would be an ideal entry into the world of B&O for many people.

     

    Simon

  • 12-24-2008 4:02 AM In reply to

    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    Good thread Trip!

    Many very interesting and positive suggestions for developing our beloved brand. While all the technical aspects are a little beyond my expertise I do agree that I think we need to have the products which are more hardware based rather than simply software based. I also agree that the software would need to be more fluid, adaptable and expandable ... to allow customers to grow with the product.

    As many of you know I would also love to see some of the classic masterpieces (timber accents included) reinvented/engineered for the future. But, I am not suggesting however, that this negates the need to design new inventive / cutting edge designs ( like BS 9000/ BL5) which will define our generation of the brand, this MUST continue ....... 

    Obviously I also therefore feel that B&O has to honour their history... Jacob Jensen was a master of his craft and I strongly believe, what he did for the brand from the late 60's onwards created the allure and brand identity that endures and defines B&O today .....If we look to all major luxury brands in many catagories, Louis Vuitton, Hermes, Bentley/ Rolls Royce, Ferrari, Rolex, Cartier, Fritz Hansen, Knoll etc they all use their unique brand heritage as marketing leverage  ... only just recently Mercedes had a campaign where they showed icons from their history such as the gull wing, SL models and s class etc  to show how you can live and grow with the brand ... this creates a sense that you are buying more than just a single product, but buying into a lineage which has longevity, and is part of a lifestyle lived with passion.

    As far as the technology, B&O should define their strengths and focus on them. Where they need to outsource, find the best resources / componants in the world, no matter what the origin. Recognize the market forces that are at work in today's market and not be drawn into the mass market concept of needing to change products so rapidly. B&O should trancend that,  bringing us back to the concept of creating wonderfully designed products of suprerior quality, with enduring longevity, and of course all manufactured in Denmark.

    Merry Christmas! 

    Laurence.

     

     

  • 12-24-2008 8:52 AM In reply to

    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    To me, only B&O can save B&O..

    I think - I hope - the new CEO will do that all, after all that's why he was appointed!

    B&O simply has to be B&O again, that means:

    - great design & not rebadged/rebranded products , but design where form & function are in perfect harmony (some of the latest products do not follow this principle, take Serenata with no numbered keys & an upside down screen covered by your fingers whenever you use the wheel!)

    - products that all speak the same language : why releasing digital TVs and digital sources if you connect them with analog SCART??Some BeoVisions have VGA inputs, others DVI, other HDMI: can we have some sinergy here? Same for the audio & video formats: BeoSound 2,6 & Serenata all play different audio formats, how am I supposed to rip my CDs? And same too for direct & remote control: why is the "menu" key on BeoCenter 2 offering something else than the "menu" key on Beo4? Why is the SD card named "A.MEM" on BeoSound 4, but "SD" on BeoSound3"?Why do I have to press the blue key on Beo4 to access DVD menus, instead of simply pressing, er..."menu"??The list is long..and this is not what B&O has accustomed us to.

     - an update on the BeoLink technology: integration was B&O's strength, Masterlink is more than 10 years old, and NOTHING new has come out yet! No digital Masterlink, a BeoLink Wireless that could do 10 times more than what it does, you still can't play 2 audio sources with one audio master, and still can't show digital pictures on a link TV..wake up!

    - finally, come back to earth in terms of prices, I presently only buy second hand products, the only items I bought new are accessories like BeoPort, telephones like BeoCom 4 & speakers like BeoLab 4 PC.. all the rest is reaching stellar prices..

    I'm not waiting for new products, I'm waiting for the present range to be perfect: is it so hard to fit DVI or HDMI to BeoCenter 2, make all digital players play lossless WMA, and fit all BeoSounds with digital audio outputs for connecting BeoLab 5?Are we asking the impossible?

    Reunion Island is greeting you!

  • 12-24-2008 9:46 AM In reply to

    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    Here's one:

    A single designer or many?

    I can see advantages to both. So far we have had good luck going from JJ to DL, but now it appears we're coming up on the edge of a cliff. DL is winding down and it's not clear that AH is going to be "the guy."

    While a single designer theoretically offers greater cohesion, it could also be said that there is less cohesion than we may think. Chris just listed out some of the major operational differences and when you sit a BeoLab 5 next to a BeoLab 6000, they share only materials. Would even more diversity help or hurt?

    Likewise, if we more freely employ different designers, we would have a more competitive marketplace of ideas. Everything from "guest designers" (I would love to see a Philippe Starck product or two) to a larger voice for the innovative design students who have historically been trampled in Struer.

    If all designers had to design around a universal operating convention and feature set, we could theoretically bring more cohesion to function while diversifying form.

    Just a thought.   

    There is scarcely anything in this world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey. - John Ruskin

  • 12-24-2008 11:44 AM In reply to

    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    I like the idea of a universal operating convention and feature set. Not sure if B&O really needs that many designers. And not sure they need Philippe Starck. Apart from a few nice designs the most overrated designer out there in my opinion, even though his designs have good sales figures in general.

    Beoworld's twenty-eighth ninth prize winner and fifty-first second prize winner. Best £30 I've ever spent!

  • 12-25-2008 6:13 AM In reply to

    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    I'm thrilled by this input from B&O enthusiasts. B&O should be thankful for this priceless advisory service. I hope B&O is capable of realizing at least some of this input.
  • 12-25-2008 6:47 AM In reply to

    • Dave
    • Top 50 Contributor
    • Joined on 04-17-2007
    • Brisbane, Australia
    • Posts 2,328
    • Bronze Member

    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    erg4000:
    I'm thrilled by this input from B&O enthusiasts. B&O should be thankful for this priceless advisory service. I hope B&O is capable of realizing at least some of this input.

    Absolutely. Smile

    “Quality is never an accident; it is always the result of intelligent effort.”

    Your health and well-being comes first and fore-most.

     

     

  • 12-25-2008 12:26 PM In reply to

    • Roger
    • Top 75 Contributor
      Male
    • Joined on 03-28-2007
    • Norway
    • Posts 870
    • Founder

    Re: How to save Bang & Olufsen

    What a refreshing thread!

    1. I think that the story behind the BeoSound 5 indicates that they are willing to look out of the box for design ideas. Again. But David brought iconic design to a new level, and Break Point 1993 showed us that this was the right way for B&O. How to combine iconic looks with fresh thinking?
    2. B&O do need to have "MX" and "AV9000" products on offer. Currently they are a bit short in the MX-section, but I am not sure if the BS 3 "lite" is the way forward - they do offer the complete package in the 7-40 at a competitive price.
    3. Quite shocking, but after reading this a couple of times I tend to agree: Traditional stereo systems are for the hifi crowd. The BeoSound 5 is aimed at that segment. But is this a segment that will save B&O? Sad but true: I listen to more music on my Serenata than on my BeoLab 5's, so Trip is spot on - music lives in your hands or on a screen. Which is why the car audio segment is just right for B&O.
    4. Nothing on my laptop freezes as often as the BeoNet, BeoTray and BeoXXX components of the BeoPlayer S/W. The BeoMedia 1 came with promises of a flow of S/W updates (the last update was released in Nov-06). The BeoPlayer was great for organizing 6-12 CD's for the BeoSound 2 at launch, but it is completely outdated now. I will get the BeoSound 5 / BeoMaster 5 combo, but I do know that B&O will let me down again with S/W less than par. So to Trip's media engine idea: Sorry, but I do not think that B&O have what it takes. They can prove me wrong with the BeoSound 5 / BeoMaster 5, but I doubt it.
    5. B&O have understood this, and the Beo5 is part of their plan-of-attack here. Look at HP's TouchSmart screen - this should have been a B&O link tv.

    Roger

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