moxxey:

Razlaw:

I want the player to fit in a BS1 cabinet. I did not think the PS 3 would fit.

The PS3 is about the same size as a DVD player and can stand horizontally or vertically.

 

Can the PS3 be controlled by the Beo 4?

This is certainly an epic post with vigorous and passionate arguments. Not sure it has helped me though but I don't really care.... you see...

 I have just ordered a new BV4, BS3, Beolab 10, Samsung SPA800B (the one recommended by B&O and developed with Joe Kane Productions), the Projector LIft (for in ceiling concealment) the Stewart Filmscreen in ceiling electriscreen. All of this for the B&O Beoliving concept. When I sat there at my dealership watching "kingdom of heaven" blu Ray output from a PS3 to a BV4  and then changed from the palsma to being projected on the wall (!!!) I was sold. (NOte: I also have a pair of Lab 5s and lab 3s. The dealership used Lab 5s and Lab 9s.

 It did not and does not in the slightest bother me whether its Dolby True didgeridoos or HD Master Audio whatchamacallit , nor did I worry about pulse code modulation or bitstream doo da..s. The picture was glorious, the sound was out of this world and in 5 weeks (as my mate George the barrow boy from the UK would put it) I will be walking around like a dog with two d***s (sorry Mr Moderator).

I of course researched all about this and quite franlkly it made my head spin. As a jazz musician I trust my ears far more than what any damn menu says and I liked what I heard. LIfe is truly too short, although I enjoy reading and feeling the pashion beinhd the arguments in this thread.

Now I have to decide on whether ito buy a Playstation 3 that connects to the BS 3 (and let the kids hog the BV 4) or whether its the new Panasonic BD50 (that apparently decodes HD MA and all that Jazz).

 What say you all ?

I must admit, the Olympics on BBC HD look magnificent on the BV4. I thought they were spectacular on the BV7-40 (and they are), but the BV4 is another level above the BV7-40 MKIII, in terms of picture quality. I've never seen anything on TV that looked so good.

I have the PS3 and have never looked back. It's the size of a slimline DVD player, is very quiet, supports the latest Blu-ray standards and, even for a non-gamer like myself, I can't help playing the odd game of Burnout Paradise or GTA IV. It's always good to have the ability to wheel out the PS3 on a rainy day when you're stuck indoors.

You can control the PS3 through the Beo4 remote with an infr-red device for the PS3. Someone posted the link on this site.

Peter, with the BL5's, whatever sound you process through those speakers...it will sound superb. Basic Dolby Digital on the lab 5's is going to sound way better than True HD through cheap speakers.

peterjacobs:

This is certainly an epic post with vigorous and passionate arguments. Not sure it has helped me though but I don't really care.... you see...

 I have just ordered a new BV4, BS3, Beolab 10, Samsung SPA800B (the one recommended by B&O and developed with Joe Kane Productions), the Projector LIft (for in ceiling concealment) the Stewart Filmscreen in ceiling electriscreen. All of this for the B&O Beoliving concept. When I sat there at my dealership watching "kingdom of heaven" blu Ray output from a PS3 to a BV4  and then changed from the palsma to being projected on the wall (!!!) I was sold. (NOte: I also have a pair of Lab 5s and lab 3s. The dealership used Lab 5s and Lab 9s.

 It did not and does not in the slightest bother me whether its Dolby True didgeridoos or HD Master Audio whatchamacallit , nor did I worry about pulse code modulation or bitstream doo da..s. The picture was glorious, the sound was out of this world and in 5 weeks (as my mate George the barrow boy from the UK would put it) I will be walking around like a dog with two d***s (sorry Mr Moderator).

I of course researched all about this and quite franlkly it made my head spin. As a jazz musician I trust my ears far more than what any damn menu says and I liked what I heard. LIfe is truly too short, although I enjoy reading and feeling the pashion beinhd the arguments in this thread.

Now I have to decide on whether ito buy a Playstation 3 that connects to the BS 3 (and let the kids hog the BV 4) or whether its the new Panasonic BD50 (that apparently decodes HD MA and all that Jazz).

 What say you all ?

 

It is certainly true that B&O need more individuals who wish to distance themsleves from the realities of  technolgical development  - as B&O have of course embraced this philosophy themselves - at least in recent times . With my set up BV4, 4xbl9, 7.1 individuals who know this business, quite like it but not over-impressed - and there was a time when B&O arguably were the best of what could be offered but alas now....................... can fully understand your perspective and if your happy with what youve got by walking into a store thats fine- B&O have relied upon this type of customer to keep the business moving.

As for sound, well HD audio is the future, personally I would not spend the sums of money I did one year ago for a solution thats so expensive and behind in technology and doesnt support it.

Its rather intersting though that you mention about the PS3 and panasonic BD50- ( that apparently decodes HDMA and all that jazz) - it doesnt matter which one you choose as neither will be of any use other than a blue ray player with the BS3.

May as well get the cheapest PS3 rather than pay a lot more for the panasonic which is expensive because of analogue out- and you cant use that either with BS3

355F, can you answer this question?

.....if I do the following:

Razlaw:

355F, can you answer this question?

.....if I do the following:

1. Set the Blu-Ray player to output uncompressed PCM in the Blue-Ray player.

2. Set a Blu-Ray disc to select the uncompresed PCM track in the Disc set-up menu, not Dolby or DTS and not Dolby TrueHD or DTS Master HD  and play it

here is what I get

1. The onscreen menu for the Blu-Ray player advises me that it is in fact putting out multi-channel PCM at 48kHz, just as it is set to do

2. The on screen menu for the BV7, under "Sound System" indicates that it is receiving as the input "Multichannel PCM" and that the output is exactly the same, "Multichannel PCM."

So, the Blu-Ray player, the BV7 input and output all say the same thing, multichannel PCM, so the question is,                                  

what exactly am I hearing?

 

I cant answer what your hearing. Ive listened to HD audio suitably mastered and its way beyond what the BS3 is outputting- and thats not just me- its individuals that know this business- the ex head of sales for Dolby europe for one.I know , i know, its another unnoficial source- therefore of no value!

All I can say- which is how this debate started is that one is not getting true HD audio. Not by a long way.

Recently, ive spend more time on HD audio and the BS3.

There is a 'difference' and the very best explanation came from  user 'soundproof' as to why that might be.

Actually, the previous  post above is very relevant in some ways- the poster is saying 'I dont care if it has HD audio and all that jazz!

And in the same way I dont care if , with bs3, I am getting a very little bit of HD audio, a perceptive amount of HD audio, or 10% of HD audio, or minimal HD audio -if indeed thats what it is!

I dont have HD audio proper- you know the one that every other decent brand is offering now- but in seems in the world of B&O we have  new techno buz words-  ' unrecognisable partial HD.' herinafter called UP HD

So the specs for BS3 are

DTS

5.1

UP  HD- for B&O converts only

To paraphrase Sherlock Holmes, when all alternatives are eliminated, whatever remains, no matter how unlikely, must be true.

The only explanation for the displays, connections, and settings is that the BS3 does in fact output HD sound, just as my dealer says, just as somebody in this thread says a B and O engineer says it does, and just as every single article on how HD audio works that has been posted in this thread says.

 

Razlaw:

To paraphrase Sherlock Holmes, when all alternatives are eliminated, whatever remains, no matter how unlikely, must be true.

The only explanation for the displays, connections, and settings is that the BS3 does in fact output HD sound, just as my dealer says, just as somebody in this thread says a B and O engineer says it does, and just as every single article on how HD audio works that has been posted in this thread says.

 

Correction. Two sources from B&O confirm it doesnt, you are in denial!- black is blue, ignore any information contrary to what one wants to believe. what connections?

Its very interesting to note that you believe you are getting HD audio

 

Enjoy the system

 

There is no direct connection between the designation "uncompressed PCM" and your assumption that this is HD-audio.

I have shelves full of classical concert DVDs with Uncompressed PCM two-channel soundtracks (standard on DG, among others), in addition to the 5.1 variations. The uncompressed PCM you are getting, according to your previous statements, are 48kHz, which is far below the samplerate for HD-audio (which can be up to 4 times the samplerate, and double the wordlength).

Best to leave Sherlock out of this, I think.

soundproof:

There is no direct connection between the designation "uncompressed PCM" and your assumption that this is HD-audio.

I have shelves full of classical concert DVDs with Uncompressed PCM two-channel soundtracks (standard on DG, among others), in addition to the 5.1 variations. The uncompressed PCM you are getting, according to your previous statements, are 48kHz, which is far below the samplerate for HD-audio (which can be up to 4 times the samplerate, and double the wordlength).

Best to leave Sherlock out of this, I think.

Could you direct to me an article, a receiver review, or anything online that supports your assertion? I must be missing it but I can not find anything that speaks of certain receivers being able to accept one form of PCM but not another. I am open minded, however, unlike some people here, and am willing to be shown I am wrong. But as I said I have been unable to find anything that says I am wrong. As for 48kHz, that is the rate that virtually all Blu-Rays use. so, if you are saying that the BV7/BS3 will accept 48kHz, it is receiving HD audio from Blu-Rays. There may be a very few that are 96kHz. 

'The only explanation for the displays, connections, and settings is that the BS3 does in fact output HD sound, just as my dealer says, just as somebody in this thread says a B and O engineer says it does, and just as every single article on how HD audio works that has been posted in this thread says.'

Sounds very ' openminded' to me.!!- what the dealer says- goes!

 

Hello all, its me again.....

 

As I continue to read between 335f, razlaw and sound proof I am starting to get schizophrenic . How's this for open mindedness...

I am paying considerable sum of money for an upgarded B&O. I already know that B&O have not always got the most upto date technology implemented (although I am fairly certain that the boffs at Streur have access to these technologies and continue to play, sorry R&D them for future products). I have been buying B&O for their good build quality, great design statments and wow factors (to my personal taste) and have been quite satisfied with the sound (even though I know that I can get much better sounding kit cheaper). 

 Further the products are well integrated although we are now getting into the realms of PUCs etc. (My brother now has 6, yes Six !! remotes at his home and I have decided to put him out of his misery and buy him one of these universal thingys !!).

Even further, I have a pretty sad life, I think, so B&O takes me into another world after a hard days grind at the office, alll the policitcs in today's corporate world and the cretins I have the joy of dealing with with on a daily basis.

I am sure there may be future firmware upgrades to BS3 which I will no doubt have acess to. So, for now..I am preparing to be blown away (again) with my new kit just purchased.

 Thanks  fro all your input and keep this epic thread going. One benefit to me is taking this "knowledge" and going in to one of the lesser dealerships and watching the eyes when I spout of this stuff...they must dread me going in....sorry dealers, just a bit of harmless fun !!

 

Enjoy your new purchases! 

355f:

'The only explanation for the displays, connections, and settings is that the BS3 does in fact output HD sound, just as my dealer says, just as somebody in this thread says a B and O engineer says it does, and just as every single article on how HD audio works that has been posted in this thread says.'

Sounds very ' openminded' to me.!!- what the dealer says- goes!

 

Yes open minded as I have read countless articles, technical and layman terms that say I am correct. I did not form my opinion until I read articles and researched the matter. Have you read the articles cited in this thread by myself and others? I am open minded and will read anything to the contrary, but despite much effort can not find anything. Coincedentally, you are unable, or unwilling, to cite one authority, one article, one technical explanation, anything to support your position. Please show me something, other than statements you attribute to un-named sources and I will be open minded and consider it. Until then, your opinion is  nothing more than  just your opinion, based on no articulable facts, nothing more.   Yes I know the specs do not list it. The specs list the internal decoding capabilities, not what external  inputs might be usable. 

Make your own assumptions, Razlaw. I'm threading my way out of this now:

DTS-HD Master Audio is a lossless audio codec created by Digital Theater System. It was previously known as DTS++ and DTS-HD. It is an extension of DTS which, when played back on devices which do not support the Master Audio extension, degrades to a 1.5 Mbit/s "core" track which is lossy. DTS-HD Master Audio is an optional audio format for both Blu-ray Disc and HD DVD.

One goal of the DTS-HD Master Audio format was to allow a bit-to-bit representation of the original movie's studio master soundtrack. To accomplish this, DTS-HD MA supports variable bit rates up to 24.5 Mbit/s on a Blu-ray Disc and up to 18.0 Mbit/s for HD DVD. The format supports a maximum of 192kHz sampling frequency and 24-bit depth samples in 2 channels stereo mode, and 24bit/96KHz resolution in multichannel mode with up to 8 channels.

According to DTS-HD White Paper, the DTS-HD Master Audio contains 2 data streams, the original DTS core stream and the additional "residual" stream, which contains the "difference" between the original signal and the lossy compression DTS core stream. The audio signal is split into two paths at the input to the encoder. One path goes to the core encoder for backwards compatibility and is then decoded. The other path compares the original audio to the decoded core signal and generates residuals, which are data over and above what the core contains that is needed to restore the original audio as bit-for-bit identical to the original. The residual data is then encoded by a lossless encoder and packed together with the core. The decoding process is simply the reverse. Notice that Lossless audio coding is always variable bit rate.

 

I'd actually like the BeoSystem 3 to have the capabilities you claim for it. That would require it to be able to handle unpacked Linear PCM; and for B&O to have decided to not make this clear to their dealers, customers or tech-spec's writers. 

DTS-HD Master Audio is a lossless audio codec created by Digital Theater System. It was previously known as DTS++ and DTS-HD. It is an extension of DTS which, when played back on devices which do not support the Master Audio extension, degrades to a 1.5 Mbit/s "core" track which is lossy. DTS-HD Master Audio is an optional audio format for both Blu-ray Disc and HD DVD.

One goal of the DTS-HD Master Audio format was to allow a bit-to-bit representation of the original movie's studio master soundtrack. To accomplish this, DTS-HD MA supports variable bit rates up to 24.5 Mbit/s on a Blu-ray Disc and up to 18.0 Mbit/s for HD DVD. The format supports a maximum of 192kHz sampling frequency and 24-bit depth samples in 2 channels stereo mode, and 24bit/96KHz resolution in multichannel mode with up to 8 channels.

According to DTS-HD White Paper, the DTS-HD Master Audio contains 2 data streams, the original DTS core stream and the additional "residual" stream, which contains the "difference" between the original signal and the lossy compression DTS core stream. The audio signal is split into two paths at the input to the encoder. One path goes to the core encoder for backwards compatibility and is then decoded. The other path compares the original audio to the decoded core signal and generates residuals, which are data over and above what the core contains that is needed to restore the original audio as bit-for-bit identical to the original. The residual data is then encoded by a lossless encoder and packed together with the core. The decoding process is simply the reverse. Notice that Lossless audio coding is always variable bit rate.

 

Signing out of this discussion now! Cheers!

 

Razlaw:

Yes open minded as I have read countless articles, technical and layman terms that say I am correct.

Razlaw, note that you are the ONLY person on here who thinks that way though. We've already proved that there is something 'in the middle' between True HD and Dolby Digital. What we're hearing is something above what SD sources offer, but below True HD.

I understand you have a BL9, like me? Bear in mind that these speakers are probably in the top 10 worldwide. Even basic Dolby Digital will sound superb on these speakers, picking up many nuances in the audio you won't hear on cheap speakers. Indeed, stick a Blu-ray on cheap speakers and even with True HD, they won't sound as good as Dolby Digital on your BL9's.

You're sounding like someone who has spent $$$$$ on his B&O kit and refuses to imagine it doesn't possibly support the latest specs. I'll be honest, I was like this a few years ago. Indeed, I think only earlier this year I was busy telling friends how my BV7-40 MKIII supported all the Blu-ray specs etc etc. I'm not going to be quick to admit (to these same friends) that it doesn't.

However, I'm also a realist, have listened to what B&O and my dealer have said (and bear in mind my dealer is owned by B&O UK, it's not a franchise), then read what has been posted here. The conclusion? Better support for audio, based on uncompressed PCM. However, although we're hearing improved audio over Dolby Digital (ie. if we switch to Dolby Digital on our BL9's, we can hear a difference), it's still not as good as it could be - True HD.

To reiterate what was mentioned earlier - "Uncompressed PCM" does not imply HD audio - I could give you an audio track sampled at 11KHz using an 8 bit converter - it will be uncompressed and it will be PCM but it certainly won't be HD.

16 bit 48KHz isn't what I would call HD either, it is the "standard" sampling rate for DVD audio (compared to CD audio which is 44.1KHz) - they are different for a host of obscure reasons but, for all intents, the same quality.

For HD audio I would expect a minimum of 24bit 96KHz (the sampling rate can be as high as 192KHz) and, for surround sound, I would expect this, i.e. full bandwidth, on every channel.

The question remains - what maximum sample rate/word length can the BS3 handle and can it distribute full bandwidth, uncompressed data to all surround speakers.

Moxxey: There are alot more people at this forum who agree with Raslaw about this subject. I have also (like Raslaw) read alot of A/V-articles about how the new HD-audio works ALL the way (from the BR-record to the speakers). According to my opinion, all that Raslaw is saying about this subject is correct. In this subject you really CAN talk about right and wrong. The reason why this thread is so looooong, is because some people her just talk and dont really understand how things works. And they dont listen to what other people say. When B&O made the specs for BS3 (november 2006), I dont think they bothered about Multichannel PCM because there were almost no BR-players at the market then. And there were no BR-player which could decode the new HD-sound internally. And we know how often B&O change there information about techical specs(!??). B&O has confirmed to me that BS3 supports Multichannel PCM without ANY downconversion to two-channel or something else. Thats it!

B&O have confirmed to me by e-mail that BS3 support up to 96khz-24bit at all channels. (I dont think of how it would be if it supported just 2 channel at 96khz and the rest of the channels at 48 khz). That would be very odd. Even if BS3 just support 48 khz you will get HD-sound, because almost all BR-titles are recorded in 48 khz and not 96 khz. Some titles are recorded in 96 khz (Celine Dion live in Las Vegas), but 48 vs 96 khz will not be of crucial importance if we ar getting HD-sound through BS3 or not.

martin01:

Moxxey: There are alot more people at this forum who agree

Yes, I forgot about you Martin.

If B&O have replied to you as a general member of the public, you should be able to post this information on here, along with details of the B&O representative. If they have contacted you, give us the details and email information and we can be rest assured and happy with your reply.

However, I do know B&O contacted me as a member of the press and told me that True HD wasn't supported. However, uncompressed PCM is not True HD nor DTS-HD.

Thank you Martin for the comments. Very well spoken by someone who is obviously very well read and understands the topic.  Also, thanking you for pointing out that I am not the only person who takes the view I do. Again, obviously you have read all of the posts in the forum, and read up on the subject, unlike certain people.

Yippeee !. Thanks Martin. Looks like my schizophrenia takes over again. So my new BS3 is not rubbish after all and will support some sort of HD full or not !.

 So should it now be the PS 3 with its new firmware update that outputs and decodes full hd MA or do I go for the Panasonic BD 50 which also does the decoding albeit its more expenses than the PS3 ? That is the quesion ?

peterjacobs:

Yippeee !. Thanks Martin. Looks like my schizophrenia takes over again. So my new BS3 is not rubbish after all and will support some sort of HD full or not !.

 So should it now be the PS 3 with its new firmware update that outputs and decodes full hd MA or do I go for the Panasonic BD 50 which also does the decoding albeit its more expenses than the PS3 ? That is the quesion ?

I'd rather take the advice from 355f and Soundproof..