Wow!!! What a piece of kit. Perhaps B&O should re-badge it.

It should come with a government health warning!!

perhaps trip should stop looking at the face value of a product and look at what matters in the av world

performance and connections

plus most installers would put it in a cupboard anyway so who cares what it looks like ?  

i'm guessing the rear of that denon amp would wipe the floor with anything bno have on the market - as has been mentioned bno are wonderful with bno kit , but venture outside and glaring incompatibilities arise - i know - my avant looks like a branch of dixons thanks to bno's short-sightedness and tbh lies - i was told there'd be an internal hd recorder for my tv - did it ever come out ? of course not - they found the magnetism at the rear of the tube interfered with recordings

if they knew the basics of tv technology they would have figured that out before making promises they can't deliver 

bno don't need a new designer , they need a competent and up to date r&d set up

some of their present gear is quite frankly pathetic 

 

Flappo The Grate:

perhaps trip should stop looking at the face value of a product and look at what matters in the av world

performance and connections

plus most installers would put it in a cupboard anyway so who cares what it looks like ?  

i'm guessing the rear of that denon amp would wipe the floor with anything bno have on the market - as has been mentioned bno are wonderful with bno kit , but venture outside and glaring incompatibilities arise - i know - my avant looks like a branch of dixons thanks to bno's short-sightedness and tbh lies - i was told there'd be an internal hd recorder for my tv - did it ever come out ? of course not - they found the magnetism at the rear of the tube interfered with recordings

if they knew the basics of tv technology they would have figured that out before making promises they can't deliver 

bno don't need a new designer , they need a competent and up to date r&d set up

some of their present gear is quite frankly pathetic 

Flappo is a [cartoon] rabbit with too floppy ears over which he often trips because he can't see in front of him, so the name suits fine....

what matters in AV world is something very personal and yes performance counts, but connections only for those who needs them and looks are not important to those who stash their Kinokio AV stuff in a cupboard, but for others it is ; you don't buy yourself a fiat instead of a ferrari because you put it in your garage do you ? and I guess the fiat will have more "connection[possibilities]" as wel..........

I trie to avoid looking under the hood, just as much as looking at the rear of my AV................

Owning an avant should make you happy [the best picture and sound on the CRT market] if your dealer promisses you something he can't deliver, don't blame it on the brand itself....

If you need something other than B&O can deliver, buy something pathetic elsewhere instead I would suggest.....................idea?....

Yep.. But fact remains that Sales dropped significantly.. Although I know dealers who are not complaining at all !

flappo the floppy eared bunny

hahaha , good one :) 

Now the sales dropped significantly and other manufacturers make better looking televisions every month, the only way for B&O to survive is to lower the prices dramaticly. I am very worried. The overpriced fairly tail does not work anymore.

TripEnglish:

 What on earth would possess someone to buy a Denon? I've seen a few in my day, but I went to the website to explore and I threw up in my mouth. How could any specification or feature in the world be worth having something that dreary and complex polluting your home? Seriously? I'm not being glib here. 

Time after time people throw bricks at Bang & Olufsen and I have to wonder to myself, "then what are they buying?" When I look at things like a Denon receiver, I don't even know what to think. It would be like wearing sandals with a suit. I just don't understand the perspective.

I can only imagine that you'll come back with "BUT IT DOES THIS AND THIS AND SUPPORTS 24FPS!!! AND IT HAS 32 HDMI INPUTS AND THEY'RE ALL HDMI 1.3 AND AND AND AND." But I'll just glaze over and wonder, "who gives a sh**?" It's ugly. It's complex. It's cheap. It has a remote that cost 12 cents to design and 2 minutes to design. Now I'll need to program some idiotic handheld pontoon of a universal remote control and people will come to visit me and whisper behind my back about how they're "worried."

 

Quite frankly its the original posting that makes me realise why Bang & Olufsen is in the situation its in and it really defies belief that iindividuals can still think this way. Still if your a dealer you have to stick with the ship - even when its sinking!

 

Well im not here to defend Denon products and yes its not that pretty to look at but i can tell you in engineering terms they are LIGHT years away from BnO- ok the remote is crappy to but i use mine with a touch screen crestron which is far better than the pretty poor beo 5- by the way is that product the very best in quality terms?? the one i have is pretty crappy!

If one wants to pursue the route of style over substance thats fair enough but you cant charge 10 times the price for that - not anymore!

Harmonic distortion in some products (aka bl8000) that would almost fail an alba bush technical test- the list goes on.

Fact is the business model for BnO has been to develop a good product, do nothing with it to develop it and every year charge more and more. In the end the busienss is so far behind the game its not true................ A large dealer network that cant be sustained ect ect and we aint seen nothing yet!

The day when bango lower there price, thy are done for. and the brand name ruined... Never...

Wow that Denon has so many features, that even Denon don't now whats it can. Under the picture were all the logo's are, there is a logo for DDSC-D, look in the SPECIFICATIONS and it's not in it!!! 7000$ and it don't even come with a remote where have I head that before??? 300$ for a Pre-programmed (10 Devices) Glow Key Remote Control with Punch Through Commands, it's shines compared to beo4 wish cost less, but it's only because it has back-light Oh granny you just have to turn 25 rounds on the source select wheel, then you have sound from your TV...

TripEnglish agree with you all the way.

The Stig - ver. 1.7:

The day when bango lower there price, thy are done for. and the brand name ruined... Never...

Wow that Denon has so many features, that even Denon don't now whats it can. Under the picture were all the logo's are, there is a logo for DDSC-D, look in the SPECIFICATIONS and it's not in it!!! 7000$ and it don't even come with a remote where have I head that before??? 300$ for a Pre-programmed (10 Devices) Glow Key Remote Control with Punch Through Commands, it's shines compared to beo4 wish cost less, but it's only because it has back-light Oh granny you just have to turn 25 rounds on the source select wheel, then you have sound from your TV...

TripEnglish agree with you all the way.

 

I think the only thing one can do at the moment if your a BnO customer - is to look at other manufactueres remotes and be critical- just dont do the same with the actual product!!  you know- the thing that matters!

Bingo:

Now the sales dropped significantly and other manufacturers make better looking televisions every month, the only way for B&O to survive is to lower the prices dramaticly. I am very worried. The overpriced fairly tail does not work anymore.

That is not an option. With the B&O being so small in global terms they cannot hope to compete on price/performance against the large Chinese and South Korean manufacturers, and to do so would lead B&O to go bust.. They can only compete by being different, and making the prospect of owning and living with B&O a compelling one.

Simon

If that is not an option, they better stop. I really don't believe it still works aksing 17000 euro for a 50 inch plasma. All the prices around B&O has been changed so dramaticly.

I don't want to buy a Denon....I already have one... it is a AVC 1-SE. Great machine but by far to complecated for the day to day operation. That is the  reason why I bought the BS3 as my "stage manager". It is a cool concept and has some nice little extras which the Denon or others do not offer out of the box. For me it is cinema trigger with the two different settings and the possibity to connect two different displays (and not only a splitter which almost all receiver offer). Also the concept with PUC list is great!

As good as the concept is as bad is the current software and how B&O deals with the PUC list for 3rd party products. That is really a shame! Or do I ask for to much?

If the BS3 would work as the concept does allow - the price is OK and I would buy it again without any doubt.

Karsten 

Maintaining the STB list is a pretty humungous job, there are new products popping up all the time which people want to control.

355f I don't think B&O is the way to go for you, because what you want form your AV equipment, is the opposite of what B&O want. You want more and more feature option that you can control, B&O want it to work with out your knowledges and all the way automatic. when you say BS3 STB-controller only works on basic commands, hue wants a DVD player that needs more then basic commands to control in daily use?

B&O use technologies that thy think make a difference, not just because it has a nice logo to put on the front. The way you want B&O to go thy stop in the late 80'th, because if thy staid on that rout thy had to close within a year. So thy went there own way and thats where thy are now and makes a profit... 

make a profit ?

haha , what are you drinking , stiggy old bean ?

http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/news/calgarybusiness/story.html?id=7bc4f09b-9742-473e-b50c-f906f346b05c 

Flappo The Grate:

make a profit ?

haha , what are you drinking , stiggy old bean ?

http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/news/calgarybusiness/story.html?id=7bc4f09b-9742-473e-b50c-f906f346b05c 

 

??? 200.000.000 kr instead of 400.000.000 kr is still a profit in my book.

TripEnglish:

Not to take us too far off topic, but this "incompatibility" myth should be put to bed. Exactly what is not compatible with what? BeoSystem 3s can run other manufacturer's panels, projectors, screens, lighting, drapery, DVD players, set top boxes, game consoles, media servers, etc. Their audio systems can accept any stereo source as auxiliary. Their speakers can be plugged into any system out there from amp to pre-amp, to headphone jack with the right cables. I fail to see what additional compatibility is required?

 

My requirement for the Beosystem 3 was,I thought in my innocence,quite simple,viz to use it in conjunction with a Pioneer LX608.

According to B & O UK-not recommended!

My local dealer kindly offered to demo the Beosystem 3 with my TV,which,given the Beosystem 3's DVI output,would only be a test of PQ,and any possible "handshake" issues.

Before proceeding with this demo,I enquired if B & O produced a centre speaker that could be used with a TV that was on a pedestal stand placed on a AV cabinet.

Answer--No!

As a result,I did not proceed with a demo.

In general terms,there appears to be,for certain B & O products,a substantial gap between the claimed,and actual,performance capabilities.

Either the claims are greatly exaggerated,or the product is being brought to market prematurely thereby requiring frequent firmware updates.

Either way,the brand image is damaged.

 

 

 

What a shame they did not let you test the Beosystem 3 with your Kuro. They don't want you to have the best picturequality is my only conclusion :-)

And what they should have told you, Terry, is that with acoustic lenses in your front speakers, you do not need a centre channel speaker. Though I'm not entirely certain whether the BeoSystem 3 can process for that option. Anyone know?

Phantom Centre being distributed to the Front L/R speakers with BeoSystem 3?
 

This picture is sort of an illustration for the argument taking place here. This has served as a Rorschach for perspective when it comes to how we make our buying decisions. To me there is no other way to interpret this image other than the iMac's clear multidisciplinary superiority versus the Dell's "everything and the kitchen sink" approach which leaves you with a mess of a machine which is hideous to look at and joyless and frustrating to use.    

However, I've shown this image to some of my PC loving / Mac hating friends, and they literally don't understand the intention of the photo! They ask how I can possibly use this photo in my defense of Apple, when it clearly shows a less capable machine for less serious computer users!

Then we resume drinking.

What I'm saying is that we're all either talking to a wall or preaching to the choir when it comes to this Denon (as a substitute for traditional components) versus Bang & Olufsen. We come from such different backgrounds and have such different needs and demands, that we may as well call it a draw.

I appreciate Apple and Bang & Olufsen precisely because of the solid design ethic that undergirds both companies. No one aspect of the product has much stronger a voice than any other. Though there is a demand for more performance and more features, a grounded designer understands that any decision made in the design of a product carries a consequence. Whether its additional sockets, a material choice, or a bit of software on a chip, these elements must be in harmony in order to remain usable and satisfying.

I can imagine that the satisfaction with many of these products ends when you put down the spec sheet because they are nearly impossible to fully operate, no matter how many so called "advantages" they may hide in their creaky shells.

It's an issue of philosophy here, gents.

P.S., Flappo, a reduced profit is still a profit. For an example of an actual loss, see our brothers over at Pioneer who will be in the red for the fourth straight year and expect to post a $146 million loss. 

http://www.reuters.com/article/technologyNews/idUSTKG00295920080307?feedType=RSS&feedName=technologyNews 

On the plus side, as the Reuters article explains, Pioneer will be adopting Bang & Olufsen's strategy for plasma development so they can stop hemorrhaging money.

God I love it.  

Hi Trip

I agree mostly with your last post but I think the problem is that B&O go in half arsed & apple do not so you cannot draw a comparison, If you are going to be a premium brand then do not just charge a premium price deliver premium quality solutions. This is where they could learn from apple.

Your argument needs more facts. Try again.

 

 

 

Soundproof,

I couldn't agree more.

-Trip 

bno could learn a lot from apple

in the late 80's to early 90's apple were easily the most expensive computers available , they had a kind of rolls royce mentaility , and eventually when the recession ( 1992 onwards ) bit they lost the plot -  not unlike bno's recent strategy - they basically got too cocksure for their small marketshare and alienated their buyers with their arrogance - i used to shop at the old apple stores and they were so off putting it was scary

they reinvented themselves with simple integrated designs that also gave excellent value for money and invited the user with a simple alternative , they also had and continue to have excellent marketing - unlike bno - and don't make the fatal error of talking down to their audience , they also made sure their things worked easily with the standards , in fact they often led the way with usb and no floppies etc ( imac 1997 )

bno don't have any solutions that deliver value for money any more , they used to have in the old days , they used to have affordable seperates and music centres as well as the more esoteric gear , you used to be able to start with affordable kit and then plan in a few years to splash out on some of the more expensive gear

 now it's basically high end ott gear or out of date intentionally crippled equipment and still ridiculously over priced stuff like the bv8 ( no freeview and only one hdmi on a tv costing almost £3k ? ) 

bno really need to get a bit down to earth with their approach and for god sakes do something about their stupid pricing 

oh and PLEASE update their audio gear - what's the point of a stunner like the bl5 being connected to such mediocre cd playback equipment ?