Flappo,

Though we may be on different sides of the debate in this thread, I do agree with you.

As I've said before, I have my own riot act to read my beloved B&O.

I think the BeoVision 8 is a great example of a missed opportunity. I don't think that it's an issue of dumbing down the BeoVision 7 so much as making the BeoVision 8 the "iMac" of the lineup. 1 HDMI is almost a slap in the face to sensible people, whether they're spec junkies or not. The problem is B&O is not likely to issue a "redo" on the BeoVision 8, but rather slowly but surely make it what it should have been all along.

See, I'm not just carrying water for B&O! I think that B&O should strive to be more like Apple, and I think that Flappo's argument is fundamentally different than some others. I think that Flappo believes that B&O should work at making its products more Bang & Olufsen, if that makes any sense. If we preach ease of use and great experiences, we should be able to deliver them, and the back of a BeoVision 8 reminds me of a mini patchwork Moog synthesizer. Maybe we can hire Rick Wakemen as an installer!

It amazes me all of the negative comments on this forum about B and O and its products. I always thought forums such as this were for fans of the product or topic, not for people who have nothing but negative comments to make.

It is beginning to seem that those of us who genuinely appreciate, like and enjoy B and O products are in the minority here.

I agree with a number of points here.  Its good to have a contributor here who makes some very valid points about the current line up of products.  I think we have to also remember that there have been some Bang employees who have left the building due to some decisions that have been made on product / marketing etc etc - so bear this in mind.

 I think also for some people - especially when matched to the competition within the marketplace that Bangvisions are very expensive and some dont offer the connectivity of some other manufacturers.  I think this will be addressed.  The reality is the Bangvisions (as an example) utilise some differing technologys, differing levels of materials and a miriad of placement options that other manufacturers dont offer.  To draw a simple comparison - Audi / BMW / Benz do the same - using differing technologys and materials to achieve a similar result to what a Toyota does, simple transport.  But at the end of the day, Audi etc offer higher levels of quality / safety / feel / handling / quietness etc etc to Toyota.  Thats why people buy those products.  The image is nice too.  It coule be argued that VW / Alfa / Renault etc have improved their quality etc and are champing at the bit to the boys at Audi / BMW / Benz etc currently. 

The point here is that even the little guys can catch up very quickly and i think this is something Bang / LV etc etc need to keep in mind as there are real alternatives to these products. This is fact.  The only real way forward for manufacturers is product differentiation and i think this is how Bang has always managed to survive.  I think this has been a bit dusty of late - but have no fear, the dust is disappearing.

I think that some of the audio offerings Bang has are getting old. True, they sell well, but must be continually updated just as technology changes.  You will see a new offering soon that will bring Bang up to date very quickly.

I love the passion here.

Dude1,

 I'm glad you love the passion here, because you're about to get passionately flamed for continuing ot use 'BangVisions' instead of 'BeoVisions'.

 <Nomex suit on>

Russ

>>why don't they have a small museum of bno in every shop - showing off what they've achieved over the years , maybe have a smaller version of the massive book they do - give it away<<

They have or had something like this in Munich if I remember correct. I don't know if this was temporary or not. They had different products lined up that they sold over the years on some sort of timestream.

That didn't do anything to me. That Beoliving Brochure, or the Hotel Book, now this is a complete different story. I keep going back to that, even though I never got the printed brochure or the book itself. 

JK 

Razlaw:

It amazes me all of the negative comments on this forum about B and O and its products. I always thought forums such as this were for fans of the product or topic, not for people who have nothing but negative comments to make.

It is beginning to seem that those of us who genuinely appreciate, like and enjoy B and O products are in the minority here.

Because we are critical about the direction B&O is moving, does not mean we don't appreciate B&O [anymore] I for one really like and love most of the products.[Y]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think the BeoVision 8 is a great example of a missed opportunity. I don't think that it's an issue of dumbing down the BeoVision 7 so much as making the BeoVision 8 the "iMac" of the lineup. 1 HDMI is almost a slap in the face to sensible people, whether they're spec junkies or not. The problem is B&O is not likely to issue a "redo" on the BeoVision 8, but rather slowly but surely make it what it should have been all along.

See, I'm not just carrying water for B&O! I think that B&O should strive to be more like Apple, and I think that Flappo's argument is fundamentally different than some others. I think that Flappo believes that B&O should work at making its products more Bang & Olufsen, if that makes any sense. If we preach ease of use and great experiences, we should be able to deliver them, and the back of a BeoVision 8 reminds me of a mini patchwork Moog synthesizer. Maybe we can hire Rick Wakemen as an installer!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

B&O : let's NOT move in the direction of apple

Apple is for the mass, B&O for a certain group of people who love A/V AND design as well.

Steve has many Jobs on offer at Apple nowadays [times were quite differently in the past for them] despite simularities like : easy to use and being protective about integration with other products, the biggest difference is their goals : growing to be one of the biggest companies and delivering avarage products for the mass is fortunately not the goal for B&O , they should stay more expensive, more beautifull and well performing for the happy few (us......

B&O being a Barcelona Chair by Ludwig Mies van der Rohe and Apple being a FPE [fantastic plastic elastic] chair by Ron Arad; that should clarify the difference and let's not hope B&O is moving in this direction.................imho

BeoLogisch,

     as imperfect as the Apple/B&O analogy is, there isn't a better one anywhere in Consumer Electronics.  For being a 'big' company, Apple is constantly mocked for having a market share of less than 10% of computers sold, mocked for being too expensive, mocked for making seemingly odd choices (original iMac: no removeable magnetic drive/macbook air: no drive at all). 

The point is that both companies appear driven to create products born from singular, precise visions.  Are they controversial?  Yes.  Are they occasionally wrong?  Yes.  Do they occasionally get things right?  Of course.  But it is the purity of vision, in terms of function and cosmetic, of philosophy, yes, design, which polarizes people.  Both for the good and the bad.

I have to disagree with Trip here.  The more I think about it, the BV-8 is NOT the iMac...it is the air.  The concept seems driven by one of B&O's more controversial 'corporate identifiers': essentiality.  Stated from the obverse position :What can we do without in this product, what is there that is NOT needed if this is to serve its real purpose.  Remember that in the US we don't even get a tuner.  The thing is as simple as it could be made while still presenting a world class picture, class leading sound, and the 'Stage Manager' feature so that the, now necessary, STB can be operated, along with one other device from a B&O remote.

The BV-7/MK III is an iMac.

Russ
 

jk1002:

>>why don't they have a small museum of bno in every shop - showing off what they've achieved over the years , maybe have a smaller version of the massive book they do - give it away<<

They have or had something like this in Munich if I remember correct. I don't know if this was temporary or not. They had different products lined up that they sold over the years on some sort of timestream.

That didn't do anything to me. That Beoliving Brochure, or the Hotel Book, now this is a complete different story. I keep going back to that, even though I never got the printed brochure or the book itself. 

 

JK 

Even in the US, you'll notice that the stores all have a dark blue wall section somewhere near the back.  Originally called the 'History Wall' this space was intended as a showcase for exactly that use.  It is now used for general marketing where B&O can tell its on stories, from histories to discussions of its various competences.  Unfortunately in most stores it is so far in the back that most people never get to it.

Russ 

Razlaw:

It amazes me all of the negative comments on this forum about B and O and its products. I always thought forums such as this were for fans of the product or topic, not for people who have nothing but negative comments to make.

It is beginning to seem that those of us who genuinely appreciate, like and enjoy B and O products are in the minority here.

 

It is known as "tough love".

One hopes that constructive criticism will prove to be appreciated by,and more valuable to, B & O.

Complacency does no one any favours(just look what it did to the once mighty German camera industry).

Dude1:

 To draw a simple comparison - Audi / BMW / Benz do the same - using differing technologys and materials to achieve a similar result to what a Toyota does, simple transport.  But at the end of the day, Audi etc offer higher levels of quality / safety / feel / handling / quietness etc etc to Toyota.  Thats why people buy those products.  The image is nice too.  It coule be argued that VW / Alfa / Renault etc have improved their quality etc and are champing at the bit to the boys at Audi / BMW / Benz etc currently.

From my point of view Saab or Jaguar are facing the same problems as B&O. For Saab sales droped dramticly because no innovative products anymore for a high price.

Karsten 

kawo:

From my point of view Saab or Jaguar are facing the same problems as B&O. For Saab sales droped dramticly because no innovative products anymore for a high price.

Karsten 

From my perpective, Karsten, Saab is facing it's problems because General Motors never bothered to understand the 'culture' which the company had cultivated with its clientele.  GM tried to make a profit by converting Saab into another of its 'me too' brands, basing its vehicles on Opels and such.  This stark change in direction squandered the hard won brand loyalty Saab had, in favor of less expensive, more profitable 'designs.'  (I'm looking at Bingo here).

 Jaguar, and Aston-Martin, under Ford's ownership for the past 10-15 years was markedly different.  The executives Ford put in place at those two brands immediately undertook an understanding of what it was that gave the cars their identity.  From that starting point the concept was not to use the Marque to dress up cheaper Fords, but rather to use Fords extensive parts bin and other resources to help those marques build better, genuine, Jaguars and Aston-Martins.  The spin-offs went the other way, Jag's expertise in ride and handling, for instance, was used to build a better Lincoln.  When sold, both A-M and Jag were turning the corner into profitability.

 The lesson here is that a niche manufacturer which depends on it's own unique identity and personality, must in any event struggle to maintain that personality.  Simply lowering its prices will result in lost profits.  Designing 'cheap' products risks throwing away whatever 'magic' the company has in a vain pursuit of higher sales.  Back to the automotive world for a moment.  In the previous decade both BMW, and M-B tried to introduce cheaper hatchbacks in order to have a product at the $20K price-point.  BMW's 318i was based on the previous generation chassis (cheap/high profit) and extensively de-contented.  It failed in the marketplace (as did M-B's C-class hatch), precisely because their actual customer base didn't need or want a cheaper car, and because they had to decontent them so badly that they suffered feature-wise when compared to the Japanese competition.

 If B&O choose to build 'cheaper' products they risk losing their real clientele, with no real promise that they will add new customers at the low end.

Russ

Russ,

Spot F-ing On.

>> If B&O choose to build 'cheaper' products they risk losing their real clientele, with no real promise that they will add new customers at the low end.<<

There is cheap and then there is different price points. BMW has the 1, 3, 5 and 7 Series. Plus X5 and X3. Plus Z4 and friends. Plus the 6 Series. I don't think any of those are perceived cheap.

I think B&O manages OK with BV 7, BC6 and even BV8. They just need to do more frequent facelifts, similiar to what car manufacturers or computer makers do. They are terrible at that.

 Especially in the US, I miss the BC6 and the BV7 32". On a global perspective, why is there no BC6 32 and 40. I would think once you nailed the design it is not too difficult to increase size. 

I think Loewe nailed this ...... I still wouldn't buy it though.

Excellent reading!

B&O will re-focus on their audio and video products. That was the main message sent when the CEO had to leave in January. B&O and their limited workforce of approx 3.000 people can not spread out to thin: The designers and engineers used on the car audio and the mobile phone projects could have been given other tasks, such as improving the BeoCenter 6 range (adding HDMI), introducing the 7-40 mkIII earlier, improving the user interface of the Beo5 and, above all, launchin a spot-on BeoSound 5 this Spring.

The car audio project turned out to be a success, but the mobile phones aren't. I do not think we should expect a "Serainternata" at all. Some products will die of old age, good times or bad - Some products will die because of a lack of demand - Some because they can not get the parts (high quality 23" LCD is becoming hard to find, so the BeoCenter 6-23 will go).

Roger

jk1002:

>> If B&O choose to build 'cheaper' products they risk losing their real clientele, with no real promise that they will add new customers at the low end.<<

There is cheap and then there is different price points. BMW has the 1, 3, 5 and 7 Series. Plus X5 and X3. Plus Z4 and friends. Plus the 6 Series. I don't think any of those are perceived cheap.

Correct JK, but my point was that the 318i WAS perceived as cheap.  A common review comment concerning the 1-series coming to the US is that it is proced too closely to the 3.

Russ

jk1002:

>> If B&O choose to build 'cheaper' products they risk losing their real clientele, with no real promise that they will add new customers at the low end.<<

There is cheap and then there is different price points. BMW has the 1, 3, 5 and 7 Series. Plus X5 and X3. Plus Z4 and friends. Plus the 6 Series. I don't think any of those are perceived cheap.

Correct JK, but my point was that the 318i WAS perceived as cheap.  A common review comment concerning the 1-series coming to the US is that it is proced too closely to the 3.

Russ

Just what is Bang & Olufsen?  Is it a high quality boutique electronics manufacturer with a marketing strategy like Louis Vuitton?  Is it a product for the discerning masses who spend extra money to get good design but average electronics?  Or is it just different?  I have owned Bang & Olufsen products for many years and I thought it was an upscale brand with the technology to go with it.  I am frankly getting confused.

I understand the temptation to compare B&O with certain car companies and a certain computer maker but those are big companies with billions of dollars and legions of employees.  The comparisons don't work for me.  B&O is a small Danish company with a little over 3000 employees.  It is a unique company and I am an ardent fan but lately I am confused.  I really like Beolab 5s but do I dare buy them because of the turmoil?  I almost purchased a Beo5 remote a few weeks ago but decided to wait.  I can't be the only one who feels this way.  

Another point to ponder.   Apple does not manufacture anything in its home country.  The label says engineered in California.  Do we think B&O should not manufacture in its home country?  B&O products would be cheaper if produced in some place other than Denmark or the Czech Republic. Maybe the B&O label should say engineered in Denmark.

IMO there is nothing wrong with producing in another country as long as the quality doesn't drop, and the company doesn't still try and promote the idea that it's products are built in the original country.