tournedos:

Have you asked the sheep which they would prefer?

 

Probably the shave, since they would get cold. 

rednik:

They have at least launched the preowned section of the website http://www.bang-olufsen.com/preowned no ideas if anyone uses it though.

I have tried this.  There were some demo BL9s for sale, and I inquired and received an almost immediate response.  The BL9s disappeared within a few days - I assume they sold.  On the other hand, there were some BL Wireless posted by another dealer, and I sent 2 inquires with no response to either.  Why no response?  No clue if it the system (probably not since I tried twice)?  the dealer (probable)?  the price point (people move faster to sell $10K vs. ~$300)?

Stan

Stan:

I have tried this.

It's also a bit out-of-date. I was going to pull the trigger on a pre-loved BV9 a few weeks ago, but missed out on the sale. It's still listed as available.

There are also no options for finding a BV10 and other newer products, even though a few dealers have these for sale. 

Talking of getting a response. I have the opposite problem. A fair few times I've emailed my dealer and have not received a reply. I have to go in to the store to follow up, a few days later, and they tell me "we've read your email"!

TripEnglish:

One of the fundamental problems that we're now coming up against is that the buyers who are coming into the market and replacing our old buyers have never been quality driven. They have been taught to pay a lot of lip service to quality, which confuses some people, but not to actually seek it out and pay the premium required to obtain it.

I remember training at B&O over 10 years ago and the design story being that David Lewis did not build to a price point. He simply built the best product he could and then they tallied it up and figured out what it would cost. 

While I admire that method and lament its disappearance in the landscape of production, it's clear that we can't continue to be competitive in our own market without reflecting the trends of our customers and that means both pricing and user experience. It's like if Louis Vuitton continued to make better and better trunks and never acknowledged that 90% of travellers use wheely suitcases with telescoping handles. 

In my opinion there will always be customers who want quality and seek it out.  However, whereas with a pair of speakers, such as Beolab 5's for instance, you may well expect a lifespan of say 10, 15, or perhaps even 20 years or more with them, and thus gaining an excellent return on your investment given how little real advances there are in speaker design and implementation, a TV has technology that is contanstly being updated, thus making an expensive investment in a TV a precarious thing.

I take a point that you once made in that if one purchases a cutting edge TV technology wise, that in a year or so the technology will be out of date and all one will be left with is a plastic fantastic box with outdated technology, whereas with a B&O set, the inner and outer beauty of it remains.

This is undoubtedly true, but it will also be quite galling to have invested a very considerable amount of money in a B&O TV, only in a year or two to be able to buy something for 1/4 or less of the price, with noticeably better picture quality, as screen technology in LCD devices particularly, continues to improve annually with OLED the next big technology jump around the corner with LG gearing up for mass production of large screen OLED devices.

And within a couple of years, if one was to try and sell ones expensive B&O TV and trade up to a later, more advanced and better model, the value of ones investment as a second hand proposition is going to be very poor indeed.

In a sense, the situation B&O face with their TV's is not dissimilar to computers.  I personally have both Macs and a PC (to keep my hand in re MS products), as I'm involved in IT, but generally the effecitive life of a computer if you want to run the latest software is around 3 - 4 years commercial use, and about 4-5 for home use - bear in mind I'm generalising, but it's a truism nonetheless.  

Doing my sums, shows me that with a custom built Mac, assuming I get nothing for it when I let it go for a new one, it costs me on average about A$1,000.00 per annum on depreciation.  For the quality and the overall user experience involved, I find this an acceptable sum.

However, if I look at something like a B&O 7-40, which is A$20,000.00 in this country and apply a similar depreciation scale of acceptability, I would have to keep the 7-40 for around 20 years to get the same return on my investment.  Given how fast technology in TV's and displays is changing, there is no way I would keep a TV, B&O or not, for 20 years now.  In the CRT days, with stable and mature technology, I would keep a TV for perhaps 10 - 13 or so years, whereas now it would be more like 5 - 8.

Therefore, I don't think the problem is so much that people don't seek quality, or are looking for throwaway devices; the problem is that in areas like TV's, the technology is advancing so rapidly, that an very expensive and pretty box, with a picture that is quickly outdated is an investment liability unfortunately.  If apple can produce stunningly designed products, built to extremely high standards of quality engineering, and at sensible, but not cheap prices, I would say this is the sort of direction where B&O needs to head with it's visual products.

I'd be more than happy to buy a beauftiful looking and finished B&O TV, outsourced re manufacturing and made in Taiwan or China, with the latest state of the art technology, for a price premium over the likes of Sony/Panasonic/LG/Samsung etc, similar to the price premium I pay for  apple products over a generic made in the back of a fish and chip shop PC.  

So perhaps double the price or thereabouts, but not four and five times the price - simply put, the rewards are not really there for the outlay with B&O's TV's at the present time given the rapidly changing technology and the prices B&O are currently asking.

Speakers are a different matter; with relatively mature technolgy, B&O offer some of the best products one can buy in both performance and long term investment prospects.

Just my 2cents worth and IMHO as always...

Best Regards

Jon... 

Exc post , i totally agree

It's like the bv7-55

I saw one on demo in May for £17k , now it's been outdated by the 3d model. I wonder what trade in you'd get for that behemoth ?

If B&O made modular tv's like sony's profeel from the 80's they could differentiate themselves - a tv you can upgrade as new technology comes along - slip a panel in here - etc

Just a thought

Flappo:

Exc post , i totally agree

It's like the bv7-55

I saw one on demo in May for £17k , now it's been outdated by the 3d model. I wonder what trade in you'd get for that behemoth ?

If B&O made modular tv's like sony's profeel from the 80's they could differentiate themselves - a tv you can upgrade as new technology comes along - slip a panel in here - etc

 

Just a thought

The BV7 is pretty much a modular TV, with separate speakers, panel and processor. Your argument still stands however when you consider swapping BV7 panels.

Puncher:

...when you consider swapping BV7 panels.

Which is what I do! I've swapped out my BV7-40 panels 3 times now. Two upgrades, one as it was faulty and B&O replaced the panel. However, the speakers, stand and other components remain.

It's a reasonable value approach to keeping up with the latest BV7-40. However, I'm stuck on the MKIV as I don't see a compelling reason to move up to the MKV panel or the forthcoming 3D panel.

moxxey:

It's a reasonable value approach to keeping up with the latest BV7-40. However, I'm stuck on the MKIV as I don't see a compelling reason to move up to the MKV panel or the forthcoming 3D panel.

...which brings up a thought: is a TV really such a fast moving target any longer? 10 years ago most flat TVs were crap and I couldn't stand watching them, but they have evolved fast. Now that we have matured at FullHD in all non-kitchen size TVs and the picture quality is good enough in any respectable set, what is there to wait for? 400 Hz vs. whatever is just a marketing gimmick, LED backlighting is a way to make cheaper/thinner panels while trying to convince people it is because of picture quality, and many people have already realized 3D is something they don't need nor want.

I'm sure there will be new technologies, but I can't see how they could make the basic act of watching TV that much more enjoyable. I believe most future development will be at the sources, and the current modularity of, say, BV7 is well able to take advantage of that. Just replace/upgrade whatever is feeding the panel, perhaps upgrade the panel when it breaks beyond repair or you get bored with it. And all the while the speakers can stay.

tournedos:

moxxey:

It's a reasonable value approach to keeping up with the latest BV7-40. However, I'm stuck on the MKIV as I don't see a compelling reason to move up to the MKV panel or the forthcoming 3D panel.

I'm sure there will be new technologies, but I can't see how they could make the basic act of watching TV that much more enjoyable. 

Correct. It's just the size that's important for many people. I'd love to move up to a BV7-46, but B&O won't provide this option. There's a huge jump from 40 to 55. The only other option is a BV10-46, but I'd have to get rid of my stand, speaker and other components to accomodate the BV10-46 and the audio is inferior.

That's my only dilemma. I agree that the panel upgrade isn't compelling enough to make the switch, but I'm now "stuck" with my 40" TV as there are no real viable options (from B&O). Ironically, B&O are likely to lose a sale through these lack of options as, sooner rather than later, I'll move up to a 46" and it will have to be a Loewe.

Mind you, I think I could swap out my two-year-old BV7-40, stand and speaker for a brand new 46" Loewe, with movable stand and speaker, and earn money? :)

Whether Bang & Olufsen get things right or wrong, I never doubt B&Os committment to make a great quality product.

We find our biggest challenge at the moment, is that, as a rule, our clients do not find B&O user interfaces as intuitive as many others. The current crop of user interfaces be it on screen or on a hand held device come accross to many clients as very dated and clumsy.

The customers make their decisions very quickly, sometimes even before hearing or seeing the product 'in action'. 'How' they are going to work the product is becoming one of the most important factors in their buying decision.

For example, my clients who rightly or wrongly buy a Sonos component for their systems never phone me to ask how it works once it is set up. My BeoSound 5 customers, whilst enjoying the sumptuous sound and the benefits of MOTS, find all the levers wheels etc very confusing and we do many service calls just to help them work the device.

IMHO the Beo4/Beo6/BeoSound5 interfaces need to be much more user friendly.

StUrrock:

My BeoSound 5 customers, whilst enjoying the sumptuous sound and the benefits of MOTS, find all the levers wheels etc very confusing....

Amazing. I made this observation in a debate about the Beosound 5 UI and everyone who own's a Beosound 5 (forgetting I owned one for two months) jumped on my back saying it was perfect.

It isn't. That's also a reason I sold my BS5. I don't understand why, in 2011, we need 3 levers to scroll through and select music. Whereas everyone else is moving to touchscreen, we have levers. I got shot down for suggesting touch screen, but on a 11" screen, you should be able to swipe and select a track.

I own a Beosound 8 and have my iPad perma-connected. It's so easy to find and select a track. If I want a specific track (from my thousands of tracks), I go to the search function, enter a few letters and options are presented in seconds. Immediately. I don't have to scroll through tracks, to find the one I want. It takes seconds.

I also love the way I can move between tracks, add to a playlist, show the artwork and control using my finder. It's so intuitive and, frankly, the BS8 + iPad is one of the best recent B&O purchases, apart from the Beocom 5.

Since the Encore was released, I went back to my dealer to familiarise myself with the lever system and UI. Even I got confused and I regard myself as both a tech expert and used a Beosound 5 for a couple of months (two years ago). I had to take some time to remind myself which lever does what and how to find music (quickly).

Sadly that experience also reminded me that - as lovely as the Encore looks - the lever system can be complicated, when all you want to do is find a track, swiftly.

Moxxey, your sentiments are the same as 99% of people who come into our showroom

75% of clients who own the BeoSound5, have asked for a separate iPod dock, because of the simplicity of operation.

That is not to say they do not like/love their BS5 for all its good qualities, but they find comfort in the UI of the iPod and find the BS5 awkward.

Substituting a £250 iPod dock for a £4500 top of the range system cannot be right! But with a decent B&O app and interface(not being rude to any 3rd party app), this would not be the case.

TripEnglish:

I'm just the littlest bit a car guy, so I don't know the rules on this. I know that companies like Aston have to reduce the average emissions statistics in their fleet and building a shrimpy little car is the easiest way to do this, but does it have to be under the same brand if multple brands are controlled by a group? I.e do Mini's standards average in for Rolls Royce? I know Aston doesn't have this option, but I'm curious since I don't think we've seen any ridiculous mini-cars from other supercar makers.

Yeah, with a V12 Im not exactly worried about reading phoney EU emmissions laws tbo.

EU legislation states that manufacturers (Groups, not individual company's) must reduce their emissions by X percent by Y year if those groups manufacture over 10,000 cars per year. That is why BMW, Audi and Fiat dont need to do anything with their high emissions cars like the RR, Ferrari and Lambos. The smaller cars cover their emissions so to speak.

Back to the cygnet, AM make 6000 cars all-in from rebadging the IQ/cygnet to the flagship One-77 so dont need to comply with the EU legislation. So why do they do it? Why do they market it as such? My only reasoned answer is they want growth on a non-core business because todays business mantra is if you are not growing, your not surviving. Hence my argument, company's like AM and B&O could be on a hiding to nothing if they try and adapt and compete.

tournedos:

moxxey:

It's a reasonable value approach to keeping up with the latest BV7-40. However, I'm stuck on the MKIV as I don't see a compelling reason to move up to the MKV panel or the forthcoming 3D panel.

...which brings up a thought: is a TV really such a fast moving target any longer? 10 years ago most flat TVs were crap and I couldn't stand watching them, but they have evolved fast. Now that we have matured at FullHD in all non-kitchen size TVs and the picture quality is good enough in any respectable set, what is there to wait for? 400 Hz vs. whatever is just a marketing gimmick, LED backlighting is a way to make cheaper/thinner panels while trying to convince people it is because of picture quality, and many people have already realized 3D is something they don't need nor want.

I'm sure there will be new technologies, but I can't see how they could make the basic act of watching TV that much more enjoyable. I believe most future development will be at the sources, and the current modularity of, say, BV7 is well able to take advantage of that. Just replace/upgrade whatever is feeding the panel, perhaps upgrade the panel when it breaks beyond repair or you get bored with it. And all the while the speakers can stay.

I don't think there will be much important change in TV over the next 10 years.  BBC and NHK are testing Super Hi-Def TV on a limited basis.  However considering how long it took cable companies to switch to Hi-Def, there is not much appetite for Super Hi-Def.  There are a few 3D channels on my cable system, but there is little programming other than sports.  I am waiting for Beonet and a new version of Beosystem 3 before buying a new TV.  The big change will be in on demand programming from apps like Netflix and Hulu.  

In my experience, people are challenged by most B&O interfaces because they don't often closely follow convension.  That is, if people had no preconceived ideas about how a remote, TV, audio system or phone works, they would have no problem picking up 80% of what B&O does.  IMHO, we've all be trained on poorly designed interfaces to the point that when we do encounter an interface that has been designed with little respect to convension, it is hard or difficult to understand.  I recall friends working with their first Mac after many years on PCs being totally frustrated and annoyed with OSX.  Only kids can figure out my BeoCom1 without my help.  Unlike adults, they're pretty good with the Beo4/Beo5 as well.

Some of this might be because kids are more tech savy, but I think it has more to do with the fact that they don't have 20+ years of bad UI experience.  I'm not saying I adore every B&O interface, but I do appreciate them because they are usually well thought out - once you drop the baggage of prior experience. 

BTW, I love my BS5, but I've always warned people that it is not the product for people who want exacting control over their music.

Stan

John:

Therefore, I don't think the problem is so much that people don't seek quality, or are looking for throwaway devices; the problem is that in areas like TV's, the technology is advancing so rapidly, that an very expensive and pretty box, with a picture that is quickly outdated is an investment liability unfortunately.  If apple can produce stunningly designed products, built to extremely high standards of quality engineering, and at sensible, but not cheap prices, I would say this is the sort of direction where B&O needs to head with it's visual products.

I agree whole hartedly and esp with B&O prices in Aus. 

Regards

Michael.

im just going to add a bit here,

i cannot and never will get into the whole "apple" thang. since starting as a photo-journalist some 20 odd years ago i have had apple computers forced fed down my throat by picture desks i have worked on. i still cannot even get into the apple thang now. i dont own an i pad or i phone, simply because there is more to life than apple, i dont like their design or marketing. hey guess what i can still function in my employment without any trace of a mac, i phone, i pad... etc.... (to do with apple).

but in the 25 years i have purchased nothing but bang and olufsen my viewing, auditory experiences have been blessed by b&o. , to me "apple" is not the world. there is more to it than them.

a fellow snapper dared to frown at me when i said he can stuff his i phone up his kyber. mind you he tried to convince me apple products were are best in the world, i invited him round for a coffee and gave him the full beo tour of my home, needless to say i had to wipe the egg off his face, even more so when i told him about sensi-touch technoligy was around as he was being born.

yes you can call me a beo stalwart but beo products are meant to last and last they do.

macs last  longer than most pc's - check out the second hand value of them on the net

ever thought your pals might be right about apple and you might be wrong ?

Flappo:

macs last  longer than most pc's - check out the second hand value of them on the net

ever thought your pals might be right about apple and you might be wrong ?

 when i showed them b&o they kinda got the message and felt quite awkward tying to ram apple down my neck.

yes i have and neither you or anyone will ever convince me otherwise, i wouldnt have the temerity to besmirch apple if i hadnt road tested certain products of theirs.

you think pc's last longer than macs? mmm not sure i buy that. as for second life value i have no interest in looking to be honest, i know what i know and i will stick to that. i renew my vaio's and toshibas every 2 years. and in their tenure i have never had a problem with pc laptops or desktops.

apple will never ever match bang and olufsen, b&o's designs, years in the business etc, would and will be a tough one to catch up on.

i just DO NOT buy into the apple fanzine! sorry but thats how it is.

jason

I owned several Thinkpad laptop, from the time they were made by IBM and Lenovo and their second market value are quite high in fact. They are definitively built to last and their setup are very good.

And just for trolling, they always have more than 1 usb port... ;)

sergio

I absolutely agree with John and Michael. The last time I spoke to a B&O dealer the BeoVision 7-55 was AUD33k, thats a lot of money for something can will quickly be outdated by competitor product or new technology. With 33k I could purchase the new Sharp PRO-70X5FD (at 70inch instead of 55inch), a B&O BeoLab 7 and OPPO BDP-95 with quite a bit of spare change left. Give a year or two it might even be possible to get a OLED tv - which is highly likely to be far superior to the BeoVision 7-55.

Personally I'm more likely to get the BeoLab 5 as my next purchase (once I find more space and can convince my wife to like it's look) then any B&O vision product for all the reasons John pointed out.

Its a pity the BeoSound 5 Encore doesn't support two way remote, I've been looking for a slick front end device with good DAC and two way remote for my BeoLab 3 to play all my digitial music stored in my HTPC. I'd even stomach the AUD5k it cost to buy it in Sydney instead of USD3.7k it cost in USA.

As an Australian B&O customer, the one thing I would dearly wish they fix is their pricing practice. It is getting quite ridiculous, the Australian dollar has been over the last four years significantly higher than the aud/usd 0.65 conversion rate priced in B&O Australian prices. I could actual source B&O items from authorised overseas dealers, pay the extra shipping and GST, and still save money...

BillC:

 With 33k I could purchase the new Sharp PRO-70X5FD (at 70inch instead of 55inch), a B&O BeoLab 7 and OPPO BDP-95 with quite a bit of spare change left. 

 

And with that spare change you can buy a surround processor to take the place of the Beosystem 3 inside the BV7. Or does the Sony have something similar  built in also?

The OPPO BDP-95 has 7.1 individual analog output

I am very happy with my Ipad. It's without any doubt the best gadget I received over the past year. Yet why can you not replace its battery? Countless updates will make this unnecessary I'am afraid. I do not believe B&O needs an introduction on repair service here. So let's not compare apples and peers on build quality here. Thank you.