Oh well... I guess I phrased it wrong. I was curious about your mac mini setup as in are you just using a mac mini and why cos like it has got such a teeny hard drive. And I was just injecting some humor into my post. It still puzzles me as to why people use a mac mini instead of an Imac cos it doesn't give you value for money since you have to add an external hard drive, display etc etc... 

How do you get to know about the Olive thing? I mean isn't digital output all about zero and ones? How do you boost 6db, I thought the only way to boost the "level" is to add dither to the 16 bits so it rises to like 24bits? I dunno is it possible to boost amplitude via the digital domain like an analogue signal? 

Also it's not only me that thinks a decent transport matters, many audiophiles on the Audiogon forum seems to think so and so thus the reviewers at Stereophile. I didn't use to believe that it matters too, especially when the transport is connected to a good D/A but apparently it does. I guess that is also the big reason why movies sound thin via PS3 optical compared to a decent Blu Ray player. 

And there goes the idyllic, constructive atmosphere John was so enamored with!  BTW, welcome home John.

 If true about the Olive, then I have no doubt, that psychoaccoustically a 6db bump could be mispercieved as an improvement in quality.  In the old days of analog tuners broadcast engineers regularly, intentionally overdrove their audio signals to 2-3% distortion, because as a potential listener was running up and down the dial that signal would seem louder.
 

That happens to alot of threads.... is there a solution to this? It doesn't bother me in partucular, but it does take away alot of order, whe you click on the topic and enter a discussion different to what you're expecting.

RussR:

And there goes the idyllic, constructive atmosphere John was so enamored with!  BTW, welcome home John.

 If true about the Olive, then I have no doubt, that psychoaccoustically a 6db bump could be mispercieved as an improvement in quality.  In the old days of analog tuners broadcast engineers regularly, intentionally overdrove their audio signals to 2-3% distortion, because as a potential listener was running up and down the dial that signal would seem louder.
 

But how do you do that like add 6db bump in the digital path? And what are areas of the digital signal that are bumped up by 6db? And all I am using is the digital output from the Olives which presumably is just digital audio read off the hard disk. I don't even think it's allowed since I didn't buy a hard disk player with built-in DSP sound enhancer. I don't even use it's D/A section already.... so if they do do that to the digital output signal. I am so gonna ask for a refund.  

It would require parts of the Olive's DAC to be running in 17 bit mode which would give you an extra 6dB headroom over a standard 16 bit DAC.

But it will be upsampling or something and not boosting the output level. Frankly, I don't know what soundproof is talking about " the boosting of output level by 6db". Don't even think it is possible. Besides, upsampling does not really modify the sound much and especially not if it's just one bit.

It is possible, for example using dynamic compression of some sort.

If anything, upsampling the sound by one bit will do more to harm the sound than if you were listening with no upsampling taking place.

Amping the digital level doesn't imply that anything is wrong. But it's something that it's worth to be aware of.

On my 840C, the level out is increased when I switch from pass-through to 24/96 - in an all digital path.
And likewise the signal is boosted when I use the D/A in that unit to upsample to 24/384.

This is why, as John points out in his first post, it is very important to equalize the level on the components you are comparing. By boosting the level even as little as 0.5dB, you change how you perceive the sound. And most comments about "significant improvement in detail and height and width of soundstage" are the result of an increased level -- which you can do in both analog and digital chains.

When you set the same level on both components (using a dB-meter) and then hear differences in detailing and soundstaging, then you have greater certainty that there is an actual difference in performance between the units.

Boosting the level is a standard trick in component "design" these days. I've only been told the Olive boosts as much as 6dB, which to me sounds excessive - but it doesn't degrade anything. Benchmark has a much higher level out than my Grace m902, for instance. I remember when I switched from a Benchmark DAC to the Grace, and my first reaction was disappointment, until I remembered to equalize the levels ...

huh? That is not boosting the signal, it is simply upsampling and has nothing to do with upping the db or amplitude. Upsampling is simply used to make the life of the D/A easier and also push as much of the high frequency noise away from the cds bandwidth thereby minimizing the effects of the digital filter that will be employed to remove that noise. I don't think the Olive outputs upsampled data by the way, simply because some users may be using a 16bit digital component and will not be compatible otherwise it may only be employed as an user activated option. Upsampling doesn't  make a signal louder or add extra info into the signal, it often only involves adding dither/noise to extend the number of bits or sampling rate to either minimize the effect of a digital filter or to minimize the effect or control any DSP functions such as equalization or volume control. 

So I really don't know what you were talking about seriously. 

wonderfulelectric:

Upsampling is simply used to make the life of the D/A easier and also push as much of the high frequency noise away from the cds bandwidth thereby minimizing the effects of the digital filter that will be employed to remove that noise.

I was under the impression that this process was called oversampling and is achieved by re-sampling the original digital signal at higher frequencies to allow the use of lower order analogue filters in the D/A process - it has nothing at all to do with the digital word length or adding any extra bits.

wonderfulelectric:

huh? That is not boosting the signal, it is simply upsampling and has nothing to do with upping the db or amplitude. Upsampling is simply used to make the life of the D/A easier and also push as much of the high frequency noise away from the cds bandwidth thereby minimizing the effects of the digital filter that will be employed to remove that noise. I don't think the Olive outputs upsampled data by the way, simply because some users may be using a 16bit digital component and will not be compatible otherwise it may only be employed as an user activated option. Upsampling doesn't  make a signal louder or add extra info into the signal, it often only involves adding dither/noise to extend the number of bits or sampling rate to either minimize the effect of a digital filter or to minimize the effect or control any DSP functions such as equalization or volume control. 

So I really don't know what you were talking about seriously. 

I'm bored, wonderfulelectric. I'm perfectly aware of what boosting, upsampling or signal processing entails.

Read what I wrote. If two components receive the same signal, and one has a higher level OUT than the other, all other things being equal, then the signal's been boosted. Quite ordinary with regular high-fi components, and it's usually worth checking what the analog out RMS voltage is - and amusing to observe how often it's higher than the standard. (BeoLab 5 owners may remember a warning in the manual re checking that the non-B&O unit you are connecting the speakers to does not exceed 2.0 V RMS, if I remember correctly.)

This same trick has also been applied to digital paths - and there's absolutely no reason why my Cambridge, for instance, should not have the SAME level out in its various configurations. But let's say that audiophile fashion now runs to upsampling the signal - then you can boost this to give the impression that something good has taken place inside the processor, compared to the "worse" previous version.
It's upsampled, alright, but it's also boosted.

With that I conclude my participation in this thread. It appears to have blown its course.

Ermm.. No maybe we should ask an expert. Besides didn't I already mention that I am using the digital output from the Olive? It wouldn't make any sense for the Olive to output upsampled or manipulated data through it's digital output. I mean seriously... think about it. Signal level as what you are referring to occurs mainly in analogue domain. "Boosting" the signal strength of a digital data can only risk overloading the receiving end of the D/A converter, and cause deterioration to the sound. S/PDIF is an industry standard, there are guidelines to follow. Unless you involve an expert in this discussion I don't think anything you said regarding this matter means anything cos really what you say really doesn't make any sense. It is wrong starting from the most fundamental. At the beginning I thought what you said might be true but after doing some thinking it really doesn't make sense for a manufacturer to purposely sabotage its own product. Have you ever heard of a person saying oh the digital output from my transport isn't driving my D/A converter hard enough? I guess not. 

BTW. Saying that digital outputs or signals won't vary much with a quality D/A converter is like denying the superiority of hard disk playback since the hard disk players do output better quality digital signals with less jitter.  

Puncher:

wonderfulelectric:

Upsampling is simply used to make the life of the D/A easier and also push as much of the high frequency noise away from the cds bandwidth thereby minimizing the effects of the digital filter that will be employed to remove that noise.

I was under the impression that this process was called oversampling and is achieved by re-sampling the original digital signal at higher frequencies to allow the use of lower order analogue filters in the D/A process - it has nothing at all to do with the digital word length or adding any extra bits.

Erm what we are talking here is upsampling where you actually add digital noise to the signal which is very different from oversampling and re-sampling. They are two very distinct methods. Oversampling was very popular with the older cd players like the Beosound 9000s but upsampling is often now favored especially when digital equalization and volume control is involved. Sometimes actually it even involves both upsampling and oversampling like Wadia which they turn the normal 16bit/44.1khz digital signal to like 24bit/1.4112MHZ. And normally oversampling turn a 16bit/44.1khz signal into like 1bit/1.4112mhz, a lil like SACD. There used to be a time in the early 2000s that upsampliing has its own problems such as non-linear issues but now it is pretty much perfected and is as accepted as oversampling.  

I came across this, from Dave Wilson, one of the leading lights in passive speaker design. He has done extensive listening in the Musikverein and came to the conclusion that room reflections play an important part in the listening experience.

Which is why he has redesigned his X-2 Alexandria statement speakers to provide enhancement of the room reflection:

I believe we'll be seeing many attempts in traditional speaker design towards achieving what the acoustic lenses do with ease.

And to repost my answer to the thread starter's original question - how long do you need to burn in treble drivers: SEAS, a leading manufacturer of such drivers, believes that takes about half a second of time. If the BL5s were harsh in the dealership, I suspect that was either due to a faulty treble/bass setting, the position in the room relative to walls and potential reflections, or the listening position. And then it's also possible that you were listening to a ripped, low-resolution CD-R. When buying components, I always bring my copy of this CD from Burmester, that way I can listen for differences without being unfamiliar with what I'm listening to:

 

http://www.musicdirect.com/product/74752