RussR:

Hi Moxxey,

I'm on your side here.  My point was to take issue with those who seem to feel that the Televisions have recently gone 'out of reach' for the common man.  I think it only reasonable to consider pieces for which there is some close analog between the current line and the older ones.  As others here have mentioned, there really are no close analogs for the multi-channel, larger screen systems.

 In a similar vein, and as I'm sure TripEnglish would point out, some of the issues brought up here with regard to new technology panel TV's: B&O's strategy of trying to maintain it's profit margins on those pieces is indeed risky, and controversial.  The problem for us is to look at the issue from their point-of-view.  For several years various manufacturers have taken one of 2 paths with these TV's.  Some have allowed, or been unable to prevent, the sale of their panels through various channels, both 'brick-and-mortar' and online at prices far below the MSRP.  This has pushed the sale  price down faster than the cost, although cost has, of course, dropped dramatically.
 

Once something like this starts, it is almost always a self-feeding death spiral, and not everyone survives.  And it has happened in other market spaces for various reasons. I got to watch large companies get pushed out of the cell-phone boom in the late 800's and 90's, for instance.  Of late, our erstwhile heroes Sony and Pioneer have taken steps to get out before they are forced out.  Sony no longer sells plasma at all, and Pioneer has stopped manufacturing, and will rebadge panels, like most others.  B&O decided early on to take a different tack, and so did Fujitsu.  On the Plasmavision website, however, we see a huge blue banner 'Important Announcement' which directs us here:

http://www.fujitsu-general.com/global/news/2007/07-V06-29/index.html

Fujitsu, one of the originators of the technology, and an OEM for many other brands, has left the 'consumer' market space because they can't make any money, because others have driven the retail price below the point of profitability. 

 B&O obviously want to provide their customers with a 'soup-to-nut' single-brand solution.  In order to do that they seem forced to avoid the death spiral, and wait out the storm until the market corrects itself.

 

Russ

Why should we look at it from B&O point of view!! we are the customers not their shareholders! The storm is not ending- its just beginning! now the storm is about lcd and plasma prices- SED was killed before its inception because of it. But in 12 months time it will be oled creating the storm!

The drop in pricing has little to do with abolishment of MSRP but with the attitude of the major buyers in a market that responds to price points only. Many USA companies have done a good job of bankrupting many Chinese factories as a result of this policy

Bang & olfsen got themselves into this mess ( and to some extend their dealers as well) through corporate greed. believing customers would pay anything for the brand.

Consumer prices dropping to the point that major manufactueres cant make money strated happening 3 years ago. The B&O response?? put the prices UP and quite significantly there are measures in place now to correct this but if the idiotic pricing continues im afraid B&O will not survive.

Being slow adopters is one thing but shortly you will have oled- vastly superior in every way to LCD who will buy a BV7 for £6000 or more!! then- when ythe picture is in the dark ages

I cant afford much B&O stuff, i have some A8s , beosound 2 and a old Overture / 2500. I dont think their Audio Products are overpriced at all, look at the high end audio companies, Nagra ask for £9500 for their CD Player , add some similar quality Speakers and an amp and you will be up to £20000 in no time.

Granted they offer better audio quality (probably not a huge improvement over 9000+Beo5) but B&Os stuff looks amazing and is more design orienteted.

Its a different story with TVs , i just cant see the current range competing with Pioneer etc, it just doesnt offer enough over them, sure you can link to other B&O products but thats just not enough imho.

I really hope they drop Beovision prices and that the upcoming Beosound 5 is well priced and handles media as well as some other competitors (sonos , apple etc)

I have a few thoughts on the point of price, for which we have conflicting evidence of (a) some saying it is too expensive, while (b) some dealers seem to be thriving.

I feel that willingness to tolerate current B&O pricing varies depending not only on your previous experiences with the brand but also your current or past level of ownership of B&O.

Now I have no idea just how much B&O each member here owns, but I'm willing to guess that most own a sound system of some type and some speakers, possibly a TV.  In contrast, all I own is a Beosound 2 and a BeoCom 6000, and I have BeoPlayer on my PC.

If you already have a lot of ownership experience with B&O then it is probably a lot easier to look down your nose at the current pricing for the products, while you continue to enjoy your B&O investment.  I understand and agree with you all, but dammit I just don't care.

For those that have only just dipped their toes into the pool, the urge to own something real and substantial is immense.  I want what everyone else has had but I haven't: the ten-years-of-audiovisual-joy B&O experience.  The experience you can't get at a dealership just wandering through randomly.  The kind you only get when you own your own home setup, big or small.

The urge for new enthusiasts to own some real B&O motivates them to ignore the cost that rightly alarms existing B&O owners.  So long as I don't yet own a home set up, I don't feel part of the gang.

355f:

The Armanai shirt analogy is an interesting one, the issue here is that versace, canali, zegna, pal zileri ,paul smith  all charge the same or more for a shirt so Armani is not 'out of sector on pricing and the quality of materials and fit is as good if not better than most brand

Correct, but most men do not know that. Buy an Armani shirt, people will remark on the style/cut. Tell someone the price and they reply by saying 'I never spend more than £30 on a shirt!'. Same with my Rolex Daytona comparison. I have a mate who has bought nothing special (he won't buy B&O - too expensive ;) apart from his Rolex Daytona. He goes to work and people comment on the watch. As soon as they find out the price, they comment 'I would never pay that for a watch!'. No, they wouldn't, but he doesn't care either.

Where are the closure of the shops? A few in the UK have been taken over by B&O UK, but some of these are also highly profitable, such as the Bath store.

I bet the prices do not change. Mind you, a few new innovative products would be handy... :)

legend:

I feel that willingness to tolerate current B&O pricing varies depending not only on your previous experiences with the brand but also your current or past level of ownership of B&O.

Also, don't forget the rise of the Internet. A few years ago, you'd have never known the BV4 was a framed Panasonic or the BV9 was a re-boxed Panasonic. However, now we do...which makes a lot of B&O customers think that they are being conned.

A few years ago we'd have been niaive as most regular current B&O customers. That's why 335f can't understand why people are still buying. They are still buying as most people do not read this forum and lack inside info.

moxxey:

355f:

The Armanai shirt analogy is an interesting one, the issue here is that versace, canali, zegna, pal zileri ,paul smith  all charge the same or more for a shirt so Armani is not 'out of sector on pricing and the quality of materials and fit is as good if not better than most brand

Correct, but most men do not know that. Buy an Armani shirt, people will remark on the style/cut. Tell someone the price and they reply by saying 'I never spend more than £30 on a shirt!'. Same with my Rolex Daytona comparison. I have a mate who has bought nothing special (he won't buy B&O - too expensive ;) apart from his Rolex Daytona. He goes to work and people comment on the watch. As soon as they find out the price, they comment 'I would never pay that for a watch!'. No, they wouldn't, but he doesn't care either.

Where are the closure of the shops? A few in the UK have been taken over by B&O UK, but some of these are also highly profitable, such as the Bath store.

I bet the prices do not change. Mind you, a few new innovative products would be handy... :)

Just  short list of closures here, many more to follow and in the pipeline, these are a few in recent times

Birmingham, worcs, Covent garden,  plumbs group and many many fundamentaly insolvent- be assured of that. Not that many stores are profitable im afraid. B&O appointed  an individual to look after dealers  in distress.

There is no argument to support the fact that B&O is in anything less than serious trouble at the present.

Just look at the official figures, which are a lagging indicator of individual franchise performance- if the UK is the largest or 2nd largest market- how come the figures are such- if most dealers are doing incredible business!

More inovative products will follow thats in the pipeline- if the prices go up or stay the same B&O are out of this market!

When the BV7 was initially developed abviously it was prices at a level to recoup tnat investment. Panle prices drop through the floor and so does electronics wholesale prices and the BV7 goes up! thats why changes are on the way

355f:

Birmingham, worcs,

No, they are both re-opening. Same situation as the Bath store. They had their franchise ended and, unlike a reasonably smooth transfer, the franchise owner left the stores and closed them down. They will re-open soon.

I know this as one of the employees is working in the Bath store and is heading back to the Worcester store soon.

355f - perhaps, but this applies to everything luxurious. I was in Mallory, the jewellers down here and they are struggling in a similar manner. Sales are down due to the current situation in the UK. However, it doesn't mean that a) it is affecting every territory and b) Rolex will start reducing their watches.

Most corporations are used to riding rough times and rough times cycle every few years. How did B&O get through the bad patch at the end of the 80's, for example?

335f - by the way, although you are knowledgable, technically, in this area, you do come across a doom merchant at times, I'm afraid.

moxxey:

355f:

Birmingham, worcs,

No, they are both re-opening. Same situation as the Bath store. They had their franchise ended and, unlike a reasonably smooth transfer, the franchise owner left the stores and closed them down. They will re-open soon.

I know this as one of the employees is working in the Bath store and is heading back to the Worcester store soon.

355f - perhaps, but this applies to everything luxurious. I was in Mallory, the jewellers down here and they are struggling in a similar manner. Sales are down due to the current situation in the UK. However, it doesn't mean that a) it is affecting every territory and b) Rolex will start reducing their watches.

Most corporations are used to riding rough times and rough times cycle every few years. How did B&O get through the bad patch at the end of the 80's, for example?

335f - by the way, although you are knowledgable, technically, in this area, you do come across a doom merchant at times, I'm afraid.

pessimistic maybe  ( definition- an optimist with experience)  but many high end audio companies are not strugling in the same way im afraid.

Of course some are eternal optimists comparing up market brands that are top of the tree with B&O that isnt. Anyway im pleased to note that the stores are re-opening obviously they were all doing so well B&O decided to take them over as well!

Lets be realistic- its not good for B&O to have the shutters up on their stores is it? if the franchisees were doing well why did they go into administration in some cases!

moxxey:

[ Retail stores in the UK are all down, it's not just B&O.

 Thats not entirely correct, I'm pleased to say.....

moxxey:

355f:

The Armanai shirt analogy is an interesting one, the issue here is that versace, canali, zegna, pal zileri ,paul smith  all charge the same or more for a shirt so Armani is not 'out of sector on pricing and the quality of materials and fit is as good if not better than most brand

Correct, but most men do not know that. Buy an Armani shirt, people will remark on the style/cut.

Well, from the global view it's even better (and potentially problematic for Armani, too?): just get a tailor-made one in Asia. If you find a good tailor (and they are more then plenty if you look, and pick the right fabric) there will be even more remarks on the perfect fit plus the quality when you come home. The price will be so low that you even don't want to mention it to your friends. The brand-loyal ones would think you are a 'cheapskate' and the others that you're lying ... I guess, the choice is ours

KingStreet:

moxxey:

[ Retail stores in the UK are all down, it's not just B&O.

 Thats not entirely correct, I'm pleased to say.....

I meant retail generally. It's not just a B&O issue.

355f:

Lets be realistic- its not good for B&O to have the shutters up on their stores is it? if the franchisees were doing well why did they go into administration in some cases!

From what I know from the successful and profitable Bath store (that applies to the above statement), it wasn't due to them not making enough money. It was 'other issues'. The best way to describe this....was B&O wanted to bring the dealer in line with their policies. Not entirely sure what this meant, but it was less financial and more strategic.

saf:

moxxey:

355f:

The Armanai shirt analogy is an interesting one, the issue here is that versace, canali, zegna, pal zileri ,paul smith  all charge the same or more for a shirt so Armani is not 'out of sector on pricing and the quality of materials and fit is as good if not better than most brand

Correct, but most men do not know that. Buy an Armani shirt, people will remark on the style/cut.

Well, from the global view it's even better (and potentially problematic for Armani, too?): just get a tailor-made one in Asia. If you find a good tailor (and they are more then plenty if you look, and pick the right fabric) there will be even more remarks on the perfect fit plus the quality when you come home. The price will be so low that you even don't want to mention it to your friends. The brand-loyal ones would think you are a 'cheapskate' and the others that you're lying ... I guess, the choice is ours

Well having had  afew shirts made in asia im afraid it seems not to work! although perhaps ive been to the wrong places. There are good ones in HK but no more cheap im afraid!

moxxey:

355f:

Lets be realistic- its not good for B&O to have the shutters up on their stores is it? if the franchisees were doing well why did they go into administration in some cases!

From what I know from the successful and profitable Bath store (that applies to the above statement), it wasn't due to them not making enough money. It was 'other issues'. The best way to describe this....was B&O wanted to bring the dealer in line with their policies. Not entirely sure what this meant, but it was less financial and more strategic.

well I cant comment for the bath store as i dont know the specifics of that.

Its odd though isnt it that a franchise would be finished if the only reason was that B&O wanted that store to align with its policies??  thats what corporate head office does- make sure the dealers align!- im noit entirely sure what it means either and dont want to speculate on here.

many of the otehr stores didnt 'align with B&O policies because B&O neevr got paid!

355f:

saf:

moxxey:

355f:

The Armanai shirt analogy is an interesting one, the issue here is that versace, canali, zegna, pal zileri ,paul smith  all charge the same or more for a shirt so Armani is not 'out of sector on pricing and the quality of materials and fit is as good if not better than most brand

Correct, but most men do not know that. Buy an Armani shirt, people will remark on the style/cut.

Well, from the global view it's even better (and potentially problematic for Armani, too?): just get a tailor-made one in Asia. If you find a good tailor (and they are more then plenty if you look, and pick the right fabric) there will be even more remarks on the perfect fit plus the quality when you come home. The price will be so low that you even don't want to mention it to your friends. The brand-loyal ones would think you are a 'cheapskate' and the others that you're lying ... I guess, the choice is ours

Well having had  afew shirts made in asia im afraid it seems not to work! although perhaps ive been to the wrong places. There are good ones in HK but no more cheap im afraid!

I agree one needs to have a demanding approach to achieve the right result ... but someone mentioned this in relation to electronics, too.

VANTAGE:

...

When the Beovision Avant came out in the mid-90s, at the equivalent of 5,000 €, even with a built-in VCR, I thought we were reaching the top. Now, for this amount, you can just buy a BV8 with a stand and an external DVD-player. You can forget about the BV7, even in its 32" form, let alone the BV9. Basically, for the price of one Beovision 9, you could get four Beovision Avant models... Yes, the BV9 is far more advanced, has a bigger screen, etc, but for God's sake, we are talking about a TV after all!

...

I must admit, that I have not read the complete thread - sorry. To long for a quick read at work.

But I would like to add my thoughts about prices.

If the Avant 32 DVD has been out for sale today, it would have cost 8.200 € with a 4 % price increase each year. 4 % is almost the same as the inflation of prices in general. An equal TV today, in terms of specifications would be a BV7-32 on motor stand with two BL4000s instead of the BL7-1, here the price is 8.600 €. This is why I do not think they must reduce prices, but improve picture quality through out the portfolio of TVs.

Christian:

VANTAGE:

...

When the Beovision Avant came out in the mid-90s, at the equivalent of 5,000 €, even with a built-in VCR, I thought we were reaching the top. Now, for this amount, you can just buy a BV8 with a stand and an external DVD-player. You can forget about the BV7, even in its 32" form, let alone the BV9. Basically, for the price of one Beovision 9, you could get four Beovision Avant models... Yes, the BV9 is far more advanced, has a bigger screen, etc, but for God's sake, we are talking about a TV after all!

...

I must admit, that I have not read the complete thread - sorry. To long for a quick read at work.

But I would like to add my thoughts about prices.

If the Avant 32 DVD has been out for sale today, it would have cost 8.200 € with a 4 % price increase each year. 4 % is almost the same as the inflation of prices in general. An equal TV today, in terms of specifications would be a BV7-32 on motor stand with two BL4000s instead of the BL7-1, here the price is 8.600 €. This is why I do not think they must reduce prices, but improve picture quality through out the portfolio of TVs.

You assume that the cost of components has either stood still or increased - it would appear from what has happened elsewhere in the sector that this is not true.

Puncher:

Christian:

VANTAGE:

...

When the Beovision Avant came out in the mid-90s, at the equivalent of 5,000 €, even with a built-in VCR, I thought we were reaching the top. Now, for this amount, you can just buy a BV8 with a stand and an external DVD-player. You can forget about the BV7, even in its 32" form, let alone the BV9. Basically, for the price of one Beovision 9, you could get four Beovision Avant models... Yes, the BV9 is far more advanced, has a bigger screen, etc, but for God's sake, we are talking about a TV after all!

...

I must admit, that I have not read the complete thread - sorry. To long for a quick read at work.

But I would like to add my thoughts about prices.

If the Avant 32 DVD has been out for sale today, it would have cost 8.200 € with a 4 % price increase each year. 4 % is almost the same as the inflation of prices in general. An equal TV today, in terms of specifications would be a BV7-32 on motor stand with two BL4000s instead of the BL7-1, here the price is 8.600 €. This is why I do not think they must reduce prices, but improve picture quality through out the portfolio of TVs.

You assume that the cost of components has either stood still or increased - it would appear from what has happened elsewhere in the sector that this is not true.

My point is that the price gap between the Avant and the BV7 is do to both inflation and upgrade in terms of a much better loudspeaker.

I am not talking about margins, but only doing a comparison of the price of an Avant and a BV7. The Avant was a good deal because of a good sound and superior picture. The BV7-32 could also be a good deal if the picture was beyond the best in the market (except for B&O). So I do not think B&O should lower their prices, but increase quality and wow-factor.

Christian:

Puncher:

Christian:

VANTAGE:

...

When the Beovision Avant came out in the mid-90s, at the equivalent of 5,000 €, even with a built-in VCR, I thought we were reaching the top. Now, for this amount, you can just buy a BV8 with a stand and an external DVD-player. You can forget about the BV7, even in its 32" form, let alone the BV9. Basically, for the price of one Beovision 9, you could get four Beovision Avant models... Yes, the BV9 is far more advanced, has a bigger screen, etc, but for God's sake, we are talking about a TV after all!

...

I must admit, that I have not read the complete thread - sorry. To long for a quick read at work.

But I would like to add my thoughts about prices.

If the Avant 32 DVD has been out for sale today, it would have cost 8.200 € with a 4 % price increase each year. 4 % is almost the same as the inflation of prices in general. An equal TV today, in terms of specifications would be a BV7-32 on motor stand with two BL4000s instead of the BL7-1, here the price is 8.600 €. This is why I do not think they must reduce prices, but improve picture quality through out the portfolio of TVs.

You assume that the cost of components has either stood still or increased - it would appear from what has happened elsewhere in the sector that this is not true.

My point is that the price gap between the Avant and the BV7 is do to both inflation and upgrade in terms of a much better loudspeaker.

I am not talking about margins, but only doing a comparison of the price of an Avant and a BV7. The Avant was a good deal because of a good sound and superior picture. The BV7-32 could also be a good deal if the picture was beyond the best in the market (except for B&O). So I do not think B&O should lower their prices, but increase quality and wow-factor.

 

One cannot just look at B&O prices in total isolation to the market in the same sector for mainstream and specialist companies.

The avant was Double the price of the top range sony CRT at that time. Butthe avant had, style, picture quality and sound and a motor stand.

Now the BV7 is 10 times the cost of a top range sony with picture quality that is poor on SD and good on HD - 10 times the cost - tahts the figure one needs to look at now!

I appreciate everyone's participation, but we seem to have veered off topic a bit. I don't think I was unclear on certain members' opinions of Bang & Olufsen televisions, I was interested in what they would see as acceptable compromises or alternatives in order to either increase quality, reduce cost, keep closer pace with mid-grade consumer electronics, etc.

Obviously everyone who's paid attention to these threads understands my fundamental position that I see no issue with the price range, the philosophical approach to development, performance, etc. My customers are fine with the price and love the products. My business is also growing at a healthy pace.

What I'm really interested in are some constructive ideas & opinions beyond what we generally toss at one another (or into the void as it sometimes seems).

My personal concerns, for example, tend more toward the expansion of wireless link both in terms of compatible products, level of integration, and capabilities. I'd also like to see the development of a software environment in which I can access my varying sorts of stored, streaming, and live content under a unified GUI. Apple TV comes close, but is far to limiting and visually a bit gimmicky for my taste. 

These sorts of things are what, if at all, Struer is listening to. But I guarantee that they have long since tuned out the "it's just too expensive" criticism.  

355f:

Now the BV7 is 10 times the cost of a top range sony with picture quality that is poor on SD and good on HD - 10 times the cost - tahts the figure one needs to look at now!

335f, you really can't keep out of these 'discussions'. Who cares? Don't buy one then. You've made the point around 50 times in the last 3 months. It's pretty much the only point you keep making.

As we say in freedom loving America, I may not agree with his opinion, but I'll defend with my life his right to hold it. I can assume that 355f likely comes from a very genuine place.

It's like my parents being extremely frustrated with my sister over the years for always coming home too late, leaving her bedroom and bathroom a mess, etc. They love her, but also sort of temporarily hate her behavior. It's not as easy as simply saying "then stop parenting her and get another child." I imagine that, since his point is made over and over, 355f likely sees what he believes to be a major fault and wishes a company/brand he loves would get back on the straight and narrow, but wouldn't stray too far as he (I assume 355f is a male, sorry) likely loves the company as a whole.

Just a guess, but I generally assume we're all here with pure intentions whatever our particular outlooks. 

moxxey:

355f:

Now the BV7 is 10 times the cost of a top range sony with picture quality that is poor on SD and good on HD - 10 times the cost - tahts the figure one needs to look at now!

335f, you really can't keep out of these 'discussions'. Who cares? Don't buy one then. You've made the point around 50 times in the last 3 months. It's pretty much the only point you keep making.

Actually you are correct! and im sorry about that which is why i wont be posting anymore regarding past strategy and products.

 I suppose one gets frustrated when one sees a post relating to the rpi without regard to what is happening in the real world- its also frustrating when despite all the evidence to the contrary some individuals take a stance which facts do not support and yet they carry blindly on seemingly in full support of everything B&O do in relation to pricing, product, quality and technical merit.

Anyway all academic as things are on the change and we will see lower priced flatscreens from B&O soon!

TripEnglish:

What I'm really interested in are some constructive ideas & opinions beyond what we generally toss at one another (or into the void as it sometimes seems).

My personal concerns, for example, tend more toward the expansion of wireless link both in terms of compatible products, level of integration, and capabilities. I'd also like to see the development of a software environment in which I can access my varying sorts of stored, streaming, and live content under a unified GUI. Apple TV comes close, but is far to limiting and visually a bit gimmicky for my taste. 

These sorts of things are what, if at all, Struer is listening to. But I guarantee that they have long since tuned out the "it's just too expensive" criticism.   

Sorry I guess we all got caught on the price issue.

I have a background in Networks and do have a few  techy opinions.  Wireless for music of course can be done and sounds okay to most people.  However there is some loss in the implementation with the Beolink Wireless 1.  It is very noticeable to me because in the linked room, I have a Beomaster 7000, Beolab 8000's and a Beolab2.  I switch between both systems by moving the PL wire from one to the other.  The linked system which is a Beomedia 1 and Beocenter 2 does not sound as good.  I have also tried the wireless link into the Beomaster 7000 aux port to remotely listen to Beomedia 1.  Of course you may asked about the variables in the setup.  In a detached house there may be improvement because there is less network contention and switching.  I live in a large building and there are WIFI networks everywhere.  Consequently there is more noticeable channel switching which can be annoying.  For a secure always on system, I like wired networks better especially with a more expensive setup.

I would like to see B&O have an option to do remote links over Ethernet including video.  Where I work, we use cat 6 cable with fiber and transmit thousands of high bit video streams without problem. 

Apple TV is somewhat gimmicky but there is no denying it or something like it is the future.  I very much like the ability to rent HD movies when I want to and I don't want to purchase blu-ray disks or a blu-ray player.  Ultimately digital downloads will pass by DVDs.  Apple and other companies know this.  My point is that the new Beosound or Beomedia product should include an option to use iTunes.  This could be in the menu or in the startup.  For iTunes alone, the total value generated by companies other than Apple is a one billion USD business.  Bang and Olufsen should somehow tap into the 80 million iPod and 11 million iPhone users.  I noticed in the Apple store, many customers see B&O products for the first time at the counter displaying Beosound 4 speakers and headphones.  I recently purchased the Earset 3 for my iPhone.  The sound and ease of operation is amazing.

The above are some of the things I have thought about.  I am sure other member have more ideas.

We may as well forget about the price discussions.  In the 20 years that I have been buying B&O products, the prices were always high and never went down.  I paid $2000 USD in 1988 for a VX5000  VHS recorder which I still have and not used in 10 years.  Not even in 1988 would anybody pay $2000 for a video recorder.  I am an enthusiastic fan of B&O.  Crazy huh? 

335f,

I should also mention that I share your view on Beovisions.  I am a B&O enthusiast but there is a limit.  There is a big box store near me that sells B&O TVs and almost every other brand of TV.  For me its not hard to see there are better and much less expensive TVs for a fraction of the cost of a B&O TV.  I can see all 200 of them on a hugh wall at once to compare.