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ARCHIVED FORUM -- April 2007 to March 2012
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This is the first Archived Forum which was active between 17th April 2007 and 1st March February 2012

 

Latest post 08-30-2008 10:03 AM by Klas. 35 replies.
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  • 11-30-2007 6:12 AM

    BeoLab 5 and a "phantom centre" channel

    Having fun with my home cinema setup, and trying out different things.

    I've tried a BeoLab 7-4 as a centre channel speaker, and I have tried BeoLab 3. I've also fooled around with centre speakers from other manufacturers.
    "Trouble" is - I have BeoLab 5s as my front speakers. Which means that any speaker that is going to work with/against them when a movie is taking off has its work cut out for it. Placing a BeoLab 5 as a centre is one way to go, but it would be overkill, since there's no LFE and very little bass routed to the centre speaker of a cinema multi-channel mix.

    So - I cleansed my mind, took out the centre speaker, nixed that option in my home cinema processor and found out I don't need a centre speaker. The "Phantom Centre" image produced by BL5s is very, very good - voices come through nicely even when Jason Bourne is fighting like a madman in his kitchen in full DTS.

    I've run full 6.1 pink noise circuits to evaluate the surround sound orientation and sound pressure, and think I'm going without a centre speaker. Liking acoustic lenses more and more.

    What are your experiences with centre channels when you have BL5s as fronts? 

  • 11-30-2007 6:41 AM In reply to

    • Beobird
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    Re: BeoLab 5 and a "phantom centre" channel

    If you have really good fronts like the 5's, you don't need a centre to get a nice music image in front of you. A centre is maybe a good option if you prefer surround movies (home-cinema), but B&O doens't have a good centre for the range bl 5. I mean, the 8000's have got the 7-2, the 3/9's have got the 7-4. You can also use the 7-4 or 3's as a centre, but it is just a different class of speaker... Maybe there will be a high-end centre in the future to match to 5's ?

    We Can't Get Enough B&O Stuff...

  • 11-30-2007 6:48 AM In reply to

    Re: BeoLab 5 and a "phantom centre" channel

    Soundproof, what cinema processor are you using? I suppose it is not a BS3?!?

    I like to do the same but with BS3, which seems not to support that option :-(

    Thanks, Marcus 

  • 11-30-2007 8:48 AM In reply to

    Re: BeoLab 5 and a "phantom centre" channel

    Hi Marcus,

    didn't see your question until now. I've been using various. As I'm building from a Mac as media centre I haven't gone the entire B&O route, but am using BeoLab speakers.

    Have tried Linn's Unidisk Universal player, Rotel 1068, Primare SP31 (worst interface in the universe) and am presently using a Cambridge Azur 540R v. 3 which is surprisingly good given its very low price.
     

  • 11-30-2007 10:55 AM In reply to

    Re: BeoLab 5 and a "phantom centre" channel

    Soundproof's thoughts are quite interesting, and mostly valid, I think.  

    However, I've just fitted a very high-performance HD projection system into my studio, and have been quite actively studying both film and broadcast audio in both stereo and surround, using five BeoLab 5s (I send the LFE channel signal equally to all five BL5s).  This is all easy for me to do becaue I have a mixing console.  I understand that it might be very difficult with just a receiver that did not make provision for such a configuration.  

    That said, I find I am extremely impressed (and a little surprised) by my BeoLab 5 center channel and how much it adds to the cinematic experience.  I had not realized the extent to which I had to "work" (perceptually) to mainain the illusion with just two speakers (L&R), and how much more comfortable and pleasurable it all is with the center speaker in place, even when sitting on the median plane.  Interestingly and not surprisingly, I also am hearing center channel production problems in broadcast that I never heard before with lesser (if good) center speakers such as the Avant provides.  

    So, knowing what I know now, I would highly recommend a BL5 center channel if you can stand the cost.  If not, Soundproof's way will work fine so long as the center channel info is down-mixed to left and right.  

    Best regards,

    Dave Moulton
    Dave Sausalito Audio LLC
  • 11-30-2007 12:48 PM In reply to

    Re: BeoLab 5 and a "phantom centre" channel

    Dave Moulton:
    Soundproof's thoughts are quite interesting, and mostly valid, I think.  

    However, I've just fitted a very high-performance HD projection system into my studio, and have been quite actively studying both film and broadcast audio in both stereo and surround, using five BeoLab 5s (I send the LFE channel signal equally to all five BL5s).  This is all easy for me to do becaue I have a mixing console.  I understand that it might be very difficult with just a receiver that did not make provision for such a configuration.  

    That said, I find I am extremely impressed (and a little surprised) by my BeoLab 5 center channel and how much it adds to the cinematic experience.  I had not realized the extent to which I had to "work" (perceptually) to mainain the illusion with just two speakers (L&R), and how much more comfortable and pleasurable it all is with the center speaker in place, even when sitting on the median plane.  Interestingly and not surprisingly, I also am hearing center channel production problems in broadcast that I never heard before with lesser (if good) center speakers such as the Avant provides.  

    So, knowing what I know now, I would highly recommend a BL5 center channel if you can stand the cost.  If not, Soundproof's way will work fine so long as the center channel info is down-mixed to left and right.  

    Best regards,

    Dave Moulton

    Five BeoLab 5s! Quite a setup, I would be curious to hear that with the LFE info relayed as you do from your mixing console. With most processors you have fairly basic setup options as far as channeling or multiplying particular info is concerned - and you end up really not using what those speakers can do. The Cambridge Azur I'm using now does a better job of relaying LFE and bass info to the front BL5s than both the Linn and the Primare I've been trying. It's got a very advanced bass configuration mode.
    The Rotel was quite good, but didn't have HDMI.

    And yes - if room geometry allowed it, having a BL5's center channel with specially mixed LFE and bass info would probably provide for an outstanding movie experience. I can imagine that panning and moving such info between three speakers is a trip.

    Though I must confess I'm impressed by the phantom centre that the acoustic lenses are creating -- inside the frame of the 50" plasma I'm getting precisely placed voice orientations - top - middle - bottom - left - centre - right - that had someone ask whether there was a speaker behind the screen!

    For a truly outstanding experience of excellent soundwork and DTS get Amelie de Montmartre, the French film. The use of multi-channel and particular detail in different channels in that is fantastic. The change of sound perspectives in scene changes is wonderful. And they did go to some effort with The Bourne Identity, which has better multi-channel work than most films you'll see -- credible and filled with dynamic action.

    By the way, Dave, I've been watching several of the operas from the Complete Mozart Operas set from the 2006 Salzburg Festival (22 operas in all, I have my "work" cut out for me this winter.) Listening to that from acoustic lenses and the BL5s is simply astonishing - pure joy!
     

  • 11-30-2007 2:06 PM In reply to

    • Alex
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    Re: BeoLab 5 and a "phantom centre" channel

    I've always maintained that a pair of BeoLab 5s with a 'phantom' centre channel will sound best, but I've never heard a BeoLab 5 as a centre channel too...

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  • 11-30-2007 2:28 PM In reply to

    • Jandyt
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    Re: BeoLab 5 and a "phantom centre" channel

    I think Dave Moulton has a 5 as a centre, but he's allowed!

    Andrew

    Poor me, never win owt!

  • 11-30-2007 2:57 PM In reply to

    • David
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    Re: BeoLab 5 and a "phantom centre" channel

    Soundproof. Take a photo of your set up and post it for us too see! Go on.........you know you want too.

    Cheers,

    David.

    Beolab 8000, Beolab 6000, Beolab 2, LG CX65, Beosystem 3, Beosound 9000, Beolab 3500

  • 11-30-2007 4:32 PM In reply to

    Re: BeoLab 5 and a "phantom centre" channel

    David:

    Soundproof. Take a photo of your set up and post it for us too see! Go on.........you know you want too.

    Cheers,

    David.

    Much rather see Dave's setup ... seeing five BL5s properly placed in a room of the right size and acoustics should be something.

    Big Smile

    I'll do a shot tomorrow.
     

  • 11-30-2007 4:55 PM In reply to

    • Alex
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    Re: BeoLab 5 and a "phantom centre" channel

    soundproof:
    David:

    Soundproof. Take a photo of your set up and post it for us too see! Go on.........you know you want too.

    Cheers,

    David.

    Much rather see Dave's setup ... seeing five BL5s properly placed in a room of the right size and acoustics should be something.

    Big Smile

    I'll do a shot tomorrow.
     

    There's a picture in the previous B&O catalogue! It's on the net too somewhere I believe.

     Weekly top artists:                   

  • 11-30-2007 5:44 PM In reply to

    Re: BeoLab 5 and a "phantom centre" channel

    Alex:
    soundproof:
    David:

    Soundproof. Take a photo of your set up and post it for us too see! Go on.........you know you want too.

    Cheers,

    David.

    Much rather see Dave's setup ... seeing five BL5s properly placed in a room of the right size and acoustics should be something.

    Big Smile

    I'll do a shot tomorrow.
     

    There's a picture in the previous B&O catalogue! It's on the net too somewhere I believe.

    Oh, I know those photos quite well. But they don't show a five speaker array. 

  • 12-01-2007 4:08 AM In reply to

    • kawo
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    Re: BeoLab 5 and a "phantom centre" channel

    I think we had an earlier discussion on the performance of the B&O center speakers in a Lab 5 setup before. I tested lab3, 7.4 and a 7.1, none of them could fill in "hole" in the middle left by the lab5. Finally I went with the 7.4, however, knowing that this is just a second best solution. 

    The phantom center is an exellent idea, however, my BS3 does not support this. I still have an Denon AVC1 SE in box resting for new challenges, so might be a good time to wake up this monster again :-)

    Dave, 5 lab 5  would be perfect, however (forget the budget for a second :-))) ) the lab 5 is in the center just to big and would cover parts of my screen/plasma....

    what about a lab  9 instead? would this one come much closer to a lab5? The size would be ideal for a center.

    Karsten 

    _________________________________________________________________________

    BV4-50, Beosystem 3, Beolab 5, Beolab 3, BV3-32, BV1, BS9000, Beolab 4, Beolab 2000, Beo4 Cinema

  • 12-01-2007 5:02 AM In reply to

    Re: BeoLab 5 and a "phantom centre" channel

    I'd think a BL9 would fill in nicely in the gap between BL3/7.4 and BL5 -- but do try your other processor with Centre OFF and tell us what you think of your BL5s creating a phantom centre channel.

  • 12-01-2007 8:40 AM In reply to

    • kawo
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    Re: BeoLab 5 and a "phantom centre" channel

    Will certainly do, however, it will take some time as I am rebuilding my "homecinema" room with some decent acustic treatment to take advantage of the full power of the lab 5 :-))

    Also I am sure that my dealer will let me take one of his lab 9 home for a test. Thrilling test coming up!

    Karsten 

    _________________________________________________________________________

    BV4-50, Beosystem 3, Beolab 5, Beolab 3, BV3-32, BV1, BS9000, Beolab 4, Beolab 2000, Beo4 Cinema

  • 12-01-2007 9:59 AM In reply to

    Re: BeoLab 5 and a "phantom centre" channel

    A BeoLab 9 should work quite well as a center channel among BL5s, so long as you don't let the levels get too high!  

    By the way, any and all of you (not necessarily at once!) are welcome to visit me, even watch a movie or listen to music.  So, when you are stateside shopping, just give me a call (US# 978-448-6828) and we can try to set something up.  

    My B&O collection has also grown: aside from the studio (BL5s and 3s), BeoSound 1s for the kitchen/sunroom and the terrace, Avant and BeoLab 3s&2 in the living room, BeoLab 9s w 3200 in the sitting room, BeoLab 3s/3200 in the spa and BeoLab 4000s in the guest suite.  Plus BeoCom 1s and a 2.  I'm happy to demo them all!  I'll also show you my little car collection, which is beginning to get silly, if also a lot of fun.  

    Best rergards!

    Dave Moulton
    Dave Sausalito Audio LLC
  • 12-01-2007 10:38 AM In reply to

    • kawo
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    Re: BeoLab 5 and a "phantom centre" channel

    Dave, I would love to come! Unfortunately, the US is not around the corner...but I really appriciate your kind invitation :-)) and hopefully next time I have chance to visit your studio.

    Karsten 

    _________________________________________________________________________

    BV4-50, Beosystem 3, Beolab 5, Beolab 3, BV3-32, BV1, BS9000, Beolab 4, Beolab 2000, Beo4 Cinema

  • 12-01-2007 2:33 PM In reply to

    • Jandyt
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    Re: BeoLab 5 and a "phantom centre" channel

    Hmmm.

    I feel a lengthy photo thread coming on.Wink
    What a kind offer Dave.

    Andy T.

    Poor me, never win owt!

  • 12-02-2007 4:52 AM In reply to

    • Alex
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    Re: BeoLab 5 and a "phantom centre" channel

    Photo thread? Naaa, I feel a BeoWorld trip coming Stick out tongue

     Weekly top artists:                   

  • 01-04-2008 8:37 AM In reply to

    • Klas
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    Re: BeoLab 5 and a "phantom centre" channel

    Intresting thread....never considered until read it :)

    What does the expert says; should i bother to change?

    What i have: BS3, 2xBL5 as fronts, 7.1 as Centre and 2xBL3's as surrond.

    Option 1: Keep as is
    Option 2: Remove BL 7.1 and just use the L&R BL5's - does BS3 software allow this?
    Option 3: Replace BL 7.1 with a BL3 (can't afford a single BL5 right now; but sounds like this is optimal)

    Does option 2 and 3 really provide a better experience than using the 7.1?? Always found the centre to be a bit weak on my old BS 1 but only had the BS3 for 3wks now so not really fully tuned in yet.....

    Cheers
    Klas
     

    Grant me the serenity to accept the B&O I can't afford

  • 01-04-2008 8:59 AM In reply to

    • moxxey
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    Re: BeoLab 5 and a "phantom centre" channel

    Beobird:
    If you have really good fronts like the 5's, you don't need a centre to get a nice music image in front of you. A centre is maybe a good option if you prefer surround movies (home-cinema), but B&O doens't have a good centre for the range..

    You're right. When I was evaluating the BV4 + BS3 option, one thing that put me off, was the fact that the centre speaker had to be something like a 7.4, 7.1 or BL4. Whichever option, it looked stupid under a flat screen (BV4).

    Never thought that you could use BL5's and go without the centre. Would this also apply to the cheaper BL9's?

    Edit - didn't read through the thread about the BL9's. Would be interesting to know if this would work. I'm assuming the BL5's have a wider range than the BL9's, which seem very forward-facing speakers, much like the BL3's?

  • 01-04-2008 9:14 AM In reply to

    Re: BeoLab 5 and a "phantom centre" channel

    I suggest you consider swapping out the 7.1 for a 7.4, which should integrate very nicely with the BL5s.  As mentioned earlier in the thread, a BeoLab 9 is also viable.  A BeoLab 3 would be OK (I think!) at moderate levels, but would quickly be taxed by the BL5s in action scenes - I'm afraid this might be quite audible.  

    The more listening I've done regarding the phantom vs. solid center problem, the more inclined I am toward the center channel, for film/video listening.  I'm just now finishing up an article for TV Technology magazine on this very topic (you can read it in early February).  I like the phantom image fine for stereo, but for broadcast stuff and film, the center really helps.  

    Thanks for listening.  

    Best,
    Dave Sausalito Audio LLC
  • 01-04-2008 9:20 AM In reply to

    • kallasr
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    Re: BeoLab 5 and a "phantom centre" channel

    Dave,

    would you link the article here when it will be available?

    Thanks in advance!

    Ralf

    My Beo: Beosound 3000, Beolab 4000, Beo 4 DVD,  Beolab 5000/Beomaster 5000, Beovox S45.2 with Stands, Beosystem 7000 black with Beolink 7000, Beolink 1000, F1000 (3 cubes), Beovox 5000, Beovox 3000, Attyca 1.

  • 01-04-2008 1:48 PM In reply to

    Re: BeoLab 5 and a "phantom centre" channel

    I'll try to remember!  In the meantime, this link:

    http://www.tvtechnology.com/pages/s.0065/t.p0001.html

    should take you to the archive of my articles for the magazine - you may find some of it interesting

    Best,
    Dave Sausalito Audio LLC
  • 01-05-2008 4:51 AM In reply to

    Re: BeoLab 5 and a "phantom centre" channel

    Must confess I'm very pleased with my centre-less setup with two BeoLab 5s as fronts -- as mentioned above, I'm getting a most solid "phantom" centre (a solid phantom!)

    As B&O setup doesn't allow for running without a centre-speaker, I'm using a non-B&O receiver, and since the amplifiers are in the speakers I only need a receiver that has a good pre-amp function, with the possibility of adjusting the strength of the signal to each channel. It's also imperative that your receiver channels the LFE signal that would go to a subwoofer to the front speakers (BL5s have subwoofers that will beat most on the market.) You should also check that your centre channel information is sent to the two front speakers by the receiver when you deselect the centre-channel. 

    At present I'm using a Cambridge 540R v.3 -- I'm waiting for compact receivers with proper handling of the high-resolution audio formats on BR and HD-DVD. If B&O produces one that allows me to run without a centre channel then I'll be the first in line for it. Meanwhile, I'm astonished at the quality of the inexpensive Cambridge receiver.

    ===

    My comment here should not be understood as stating that a centre channel is unnecessary. In many setups you need one. But I find that my two BL5s are delivering a solid forestage sound image with nothing missing as far as I can tell, and I have tried it with centre channel speakers. Other speakers, without the capabilities of the BL5s (the huge lenses), will very likely require a centre channel speaker.

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