Let's say your listening room is such that members of avsforum.com consider it one of the world's best.
Let's say your budget is such that you can buy the components generally acknowledged to be the ultimate - and if you're not satisfied, you can have them custom modified to your satisfaction.
Let's say you're pretty much relentless in your search for perfection in musical reproduction. Room, acoustics, speakers, components, sources -- and, of course, the cables -- they're all top notch.

Chances are you're then Mike Lavigne -- there aren't that many others who can answer to the description above.

Being Mike Lavigne, you have followed the James Randi thread on avsforum.com, where they have discussed the possibility that Mr. Fremer of Stereophile will participate in an ABX blind test -- but that got stalled on a lot of "technicalities," including one cable manufacturer pulling out after first signalling a willingness to participate. (Adam Blake of Pear Cables.)

So - being Mike Lavigne you get impatient. You have Transparent Cable's Opus M speaker cables. ($45.000 for a pair).
You purchase a pair of the Monster cables that James Randi was going to use in the test. ($100 for a pair).
And you ask a group of people to assist and monitor you, including another audiophile ace by the name of Chris Wiggles. This group designs a statistically significant test.
You'll be playing music you know, on components you have selected, in a listening room you have created.

Being Mike Lavigne you are confident that you will be able to pick out your 45.000 dollar cable against the 100 dollar Monster every single time. And to finally lay to rest the claim that expensive cables are snake oil, you have agreed to 30 run-throughs, no matter how long it takes.
As part of the protocol, you have agreed that the test should be interrupted once you have made too many misidentifications for the test to be statistically significant, but you're confident that's not going to happen.

After eight run-throughs, where seven were valid, the test director stopped the test.
At that point Mr. Mike Lavigne was confident he had 7/7.
He didn't.

Monster cables just got a lot more popular - and the high-end cable vendors have even more egg on their face, as if they need it.

Here is Mr. Chris Wiggles' account of the session: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=941184

On page two of that thread you will find Mr. Lavigne's account: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12255000#post12255000 

Occasionally we have cable debates here at BeoWorld, and frequent comments that B&O's cables are insufficient for the task.
It appears we can sleep sounder.

This is Mr. Lavigne's listening room, built by some of the finest acoustics engineers in the US.

 

The poor guy. All he had to do was walk into a B&O dealership and he could of got a top end system without spending so much money!

The Beonic Man:

The poor guy. All he had to do was walk into a B&O dealership and he could of got a top end system without spending so much money!

I think these guys are a bit above B&O in terms of sound! I wonder what they'd think of BL5s though, they would compete with speakers way above their price range...

Glad to see the cable thing has been laid to rest. I upgraded my speaker cable from bell wire to 'decend' Chord cable, and I'm positive it made a small difference, although having then listened to further 'upgrade' cables, I can't hear any difference! IMO, there is no difference between stupidly high-end speaker cable and budget speaker cable, but a difference between 'poor quality' bell wire and budget speaker cable.

Splendid result for we cable sceptics. And well done to him for allowing this to happen.

Is that we call "marketing" ?

....spending 45000 usd for a cable.....it is kind of a heafty price isn't it ??? 

Better take instead a set of BL5, BL3 and BV9. 

But, regardless of his room and the amount of money he has spent on equipment, what if he only thinks he has golden ears ??.......... what if they are actually made of cloth??

We should ask him to test mains cables while he's on

Peter:

Splendid result for we cable sceptics. And well done to him for allowing this to happen.

Yes, I'm very impressed that he put his reputation on the line in this manner. He writes he will have to spend time thinking about the result, and that he had taken the challenge too lightly - that he should have spent more time listening to the Mónster cable ...

But that means you need the calibration and sensitivity of a subsea sonar array to distinguish between these two cables, not worth 44.900 dollars, in my opinion.

BTW - the cables are probably the cheapest component in his setup -- and Chris Wiggles also had trouble distinguishing between the cables, so Mr. Lavigne has not gone deaf. 

I apologise for making light of  Mr. Lavigne and Mr. Wiggles - I was being flippant. I'm impressed that he has subjected his esoteric system to the rigours of an actual test and has published the findings and his feelings when, I suspect, it didn't go quite how he expected. (Mind you he also sounds like the kind of guy who is not going to be heartbroken/bankrupt when he finds out his $45K cables are worthless)

If only there were more like him and, as I said, if only he were to test with equal candour, some of the other components that cause regular heated debate.

 

I post occasionally on a headphone forum www.head-fi.org where any posts about double-blind testing of cables are banned and anyone who make such a post is under threat of explusion because it causes so many arguments so I will tread carefully!

The question that I have never really got to grips with about very very high end cables (I am talking about the ultra-expensive end of the market here - not the diiference between relatively inexpensive OFC and bell wire) is why? Even if the test had conclusively proved a miniscule advantage for the high-end cable If you can only tell the difference under lab conditions you really aren't going to notice any difference at all in day to day use  I think the ultra-high end cable market is probably aimed at people who want to convince themselves they have the best that money can buy and will want everyne else to know that too. But when a cable can sell for more than a pair of BL5's  something is going very wrong.....

 

Simon

You can't be expelled for spouting common sense.

Puncher:

You can't be expelled for spouting common sense.

  Well, the temperature on audiophile forums can get quite high, and amazingly it's often common sense that is under attack.

I particularly like the: "I can hear a difference, and if you can't then something's wrong with your ears" line of attack. Or when they state that "hi-fi is special, and science has yet to catch up with why this is important, but it is."

It's actually all quite amusing, as long as you're not spending 45.000 Dolares Americanos on a short stretch of interconnect. 

Absolutly. We live through crazy times.

soundproof:

Puncher:

You can't be expelled for spouting common sense.

  Well, the temperature on audiophile forums can get quite high, and amazingly it's often common sense that is under attack.

I particularly like the: "I can hear a difference, and if you can't then something's wrong with your ears" line of attack. Or when they state that "hi-fi is special, and science has yet to catch up with why this is important, but it is."

It's actually all quite amusing, as long as you're not spending 45.000 Dolares Americanos on a short stretch of interconnect. 

You're right - I should retract my statement, many have gone to the gallows for just exactly that!

The problem I have is with Hi-Fi magazines peddling the nonsense that to get the best from your system that you need to spend what I regard as an obscene amount on cables. The reviews also bang on about the way the sound suddenly springs into focus and the great depth exposed by some mains cable. I think this is tantamount to fraud.

Now I can tell the difference between speakers. I can also tell some record players and cartridges apart and some CD players do sound better than others - in my case usually because the old one needs servicing! I can also tell cassette players from record players - the hiss! - and if really pressed, can distinguish some amplifiers. For me to do this, there are clearly differences that are quite large and scientific testing can show variation in frequency response and other  large changes in the way the music is reproduced which tend to back up my ability.

Cables have no such measurable differences and this is where science ends and mysticism comes in. I am willing to believe that there are people who can detect subtle differences that I am simply not capable of. However for me to believe in differences that they hear, they have to prove it and the DBT is the most scientific way I know.

If I play you some music through a set of Beolab 6000s and then through some Beolab 5s, I reckon all of us could tell the difference using an A/B/X trial. Play some 4000s and 6000s and I would probably expect the more experienced to tell them apart but the cloth eared to get some wrong (I put myself in the latter group!)

Why should we expect different treatment for any of the audio components when the differences are touted by Hi-Fi magaines to be so clear - and that is without any comparison tests!! I would like to see some British magazine have some guts and do a similar DBT but this time do as James Randi has suggested and do the test properly with the full test being completed. And if there are no differences, drop all this nonsense about cables for good.

Well here’s something for the electrical engineers amongst you to work out (and check my numbers) from a metallurgist:-

 

Current price of gold on London Fix is currently around $800/ounce

 

$45,000 currently buys 56.25 ounces or 1,750g of pure 4-9’s gold (24k)

 

Gold which has the best electrical properties of any metal at standard temperature so I am lead to believe. Mechanically it aint that strong but it can be braided and coated

 

Assuming you can draw a 2.5mm diameter wire, you should be able to form nearly 4 equal lengths of 5 meter long cable.

 

Knock a couple of mm off the length of each for your solid gold interconnects and away you go.

 

Thus (If I get my units right), for 45 grand one can have a stereo set of solid gold speaker cables. No copper rubbish, no sound degrading oxygen, solid gold.

 

Does that sound like a real bargain?

 

 

10%

It's actually worse than that! - Silver is the best conductor! Copper is second and Gold is a lowly third! Gold is used (normally as a plating) for connectors because of its inert properties and therefore its corrosion resistence.

If I read the chart correctly Silver is only $14.5/ounce compared to Gold's $800 therefore you could have the same cable 55 times cheaper or 55 times thecross sectional area - Measure  the resistance of that if you can

In the words of Nelson Muntz

 

Chris.

Thats it from now on when someone starts a cable debate. You just know there will a link to this thread. Great thread BTW.

 

Craig

I'm impressed that you think that this is an end to it - there will always be someone (with this amount of money or not) who earnestly believes that the Emporer is wearing new clothes - beauty genuinely is in the eye of the beholder!

There's nothing you can say that will convince them otherwise - Science or other folk's opinions are never enough! Just wait until the $100K cables turn up - clarity, depth of stage, air, dynamics, previously unheard of - anyone fancy going into business making cables??

Funny you should mention that. The thread linked to above starts with a fairly frank admission that cables don't make that big a difference but by the end of the thread half the participants are discussing what the  flaws in the testing process were that  meant that the test failed to spot the differences that do so clearly exit between cables when the cables are used knowingly. The level of denial involved is truly scary and does make me think I should go into the cable business!

 

 

Puncher:

I'm impressed that you think that this is an end to it - there will always be someone (with this amount of money or not) who earnestly believes that the Emporer is wearing new clothes - beauty genuinely is in the eye of the beholder!

There's nothing you can say that will convince them otherwise - Science or other folk's opinions are never enough! Just wait until the $100K cables turn up - clarity, depth of stage, air, dynamics, previously unheard of - anyone fancy going into business making cables??

wirralsimon:

Funny you should mention that. The thread linked to above starts with a fairly frank admission that cables don't make that big a difference but by the end of the thread half the participants are discussing what the  flaws in the testing process were that  meant that the test failed to spot the differences that do so clearly exit between cables when the cables are used knowingly. The level of denial involved is truly scary and does make me think I should go into the cable business!

I am filled with regret that I haven't made a living in high-end hi-fi -- it is clear this is a field where a significant portion of P.T. Barnum's favourite kind of people have gathered together to support hi-fi manufacturers to the limit of their bank accounts.

I have also read the thread to the bottom, and found the same willingness to continue believing in "the miracle of ultraexpensive cables." On the other hand, how do you explain to yourself, your better half and your acquaintances that the 45.000 dollar cable can be replaced with a 100 dollar one? You can't, particularly not if you have one snaking along your listening room floor.

Very amusing. If these cables delivered the effects their manufacturers claim then we would be inundated with incontrovertible double-blind-tests showing to the fact. 

You don't need $100 wire either - decent power cable will be fine! I reckon $10!

Peter:

You don't need $100 wire either - decent power cable will be fine! I reckon $10!

If you use anolog signals (scart, speaker, interconnects) I recommend GOOD cables. 100 dollars is maybe a bit to much for a good 2x2mtr anolog speaker cable, but you won't get them for 10 dollars !

 

Best get the $45.000 ones, just to be sure. 

 

Beobird:

Peter:

You don't need $100 wire either - decent power cable will be fine! I reckon $10!

If you use anolog signals (scart, speaker, interconnects) I recommend GOOD cables. 100 dollars is maybe a bit to much for a good 2x2mtr anolog speaker cable, but you won't get them for 10 dollars !

wirralsimon:

 

Best get the $45.000 ones, just to be sure. 

 

Beobird:

Peter:

You don't need $100 wire either - decent power cable will be fine! I reckon $10!

If you use anolog signals (scart, speaker, interconnects) I recommend GOOD cables. 100 dollars is maybe a bit to much for a good 2x2mtr anolog speaker cable, but you won't get them for 10 dollars !

 

Yeah , but in audioworld there is a rule: "spend 10% of your setup on cables". So you need a 450.000 setup first