Linder, this is one key quote for me "If Apple executives suddenly decided they wanted their products built in the U.S., they’d have to invest billions of dollars in new factories. In China, the infrastructure is already there. “They made that decision decades ago,” Liker says. “I don’t think they’re revisiting it.”

I can't see any manufacturer deciding that they'd build a factory like this in the UK. I doubt you could get the (British) staff. I remember watching a programme on Peterborough a few months ago where they went there, filmed some kids who said that the Polish were taking all their jobs etc etc. When they were offered £10/hour to get out on the fields, they declined, said it was too much like hard work and said they could make more money on benefits.

I wonder how the benefits system performs in China? I bet they are almost forced in to work. We're too soft in the UK.

moxxey:

Linder, this is one key quote for me "If Apple executives suddenly decided they wanted their products built in the U.S., they’d have to invest billions of dollars in new factories. In China, the infrastructure is already there. “They made that decision decades ago,” Liker says. “I don’t think they’re revisiting it.”

I can't see any manufacturer deciding that they'd build a factory like this in the UK. I doubt you could get the (British) staff. I remember watching a programme on Peterborough a few months ago where they went there, filmed some kids who said that the Polish were taking all their jobs etc etc. When they were offered £10/hour to get out on the fields, they declined, said it was too much like hard work and said they could make more money on benefits.

I wonder how the benefits system performs in China? I bet they are almost forced in to work. We're too soft in the UK.

The restaurant thing was indeed aimed at Andreas

The 20 somethings out there expect to be CEO within a week, or do little work for a large paypacket. Their idols are people like Paris Hilton and Kim Kardashion(?) who make a fortune for doing nothing! They also expect a lot for their dollar....

This is the reason why companies need to be competitive. Using the manufacturing dollar in a smarter way helps companies remain competitive. Quite often, when a new B&O product is released; the forum starts going wild about it not having certain components, being too expensive and that it should be made in Denmark

It makes me think of a sign I saw in a shop:

"We have 3 types of service: Good, Cheap and Fast. Please choose any two of these."

moxxey:

Linder, this is one key quote for me "If Apple executives suddenly decided they wanted their products built in the U.S., they’d have to invest billions of dollars in new factories. In China, the infrastructure is already there. “They made that decision decades ago,” Liker says. “I don’t think they’re revisiting it.”

I can't see any manufacturer deciding that they'd build a factory like this in the UK. I doubt you could get the (British) staff. I remember watching a programme on Peterborough a few months ago where they went there, filmed some kids who said that the Polish were taking all their jobs etc etc. When they were offered £10/hour to get out on the fields, they declined, said it was too much like hard work and said they could make more money on benefits.

I wonder how the benefits system performs in China? I bet they are almost forced in to work. We're too soft in the UK.

I watched that, there was only one that did a full week!  All of the others phoned in sick or were late!!  Thats why our manufacturers have all been sold off 

My oldest friends boyfriend worked for Rover(Pressed Steel) in Swindon, and the horror stories you hear of the feckless staff and their almost sabotage of cars and equipment makes your blood boil. My first ever job leaving school was as the 91st employee at Honda, again in Swindon. What a bench mark those Japanese workers including Mr Honda himself set to me as a young man. Never have i since seen workers with so much commitment and a great commitment to perfection.

Here's the deal as I see it. I live in the USA. We no longer have trained factory workers or people interested in working for what they believe are "slave" wages. I have friends in many European countries and they tell me they have the same problems. The only people who are willing to work in factories are the up and coming people who live in countries like China. It's not their fault, it is ours. We all need to jump off out high horses and admit this isn't 1970. The world has changed and we need to adjust to that. We need to change or accept things the way they are. Are you willing to work in a factory doing repetitive tasks for 8 - 12 hours a day? Do you know anyone who does? Are you willing to pay higher prices for products? B&O isn't just thinking about profits. They are thinking of surviving! Put your money where your mouth is. Dkatz, this rant isn't directed toward you. It is just my opinion on this topic. Too many people complain about "outsourcing", but they seem to be the same people who complain about higher prices.

As for me, I stick with the vintage B&O equipment. The 70's and 80's were a simplier time and I know who made my gear.

Gene,

I agree.

Almost everyone I know needs to be a minimum of a CEO... Well someday many of these friends of mine will wake up to reality, and realize, not everyone can be a CEO. OK, well maybe CEO of their own kitchen.

It's our own fault as you say. It's not Chinas fault.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/22/business/apple-america-and-a-squeezed-middle-class.html?_r=1&pagewanted=1

Related to Apple, but very interesting ...

Chris:

My oldest friends boyfriend worked for Rover(Pressed Steel) in Swindon, and the horror stories you hear of the feckless staff and their almost sabotage of cars and equipment makes your blood boil. My first ever job leaving school was as the 91st employee at Honda, again in Swindon. What a bench mark those Japanese workers including Mr Honda himself set to me as a young man. Never have i since seen workers with so much commitment and a great commitment to perfection.

 

Chris,

Are you talking about Honda taking over Rover and producing that 216 model in the mid to late 1980's?

I can appreciate the Japanese workers having a much better work ethic than the 'old school' trade-union riddled UK workers of the 70's and 80's - but that definately did not work it's way through to the final product. Those so called 'Rover' 216's were absolute garbage, absolutely terrible cars that rusted through within a few years, terribly made and a total travesty for the Rover name. Rover cars of the 50's, 60's and early 70's were a proud british marque, proper quality often used as Police cars, and cars that chauffeured cabinet ministers etc. They were comparable to the Mercs and Beemers of the day, then I think British Leyland had involvement and quality standards declined sharply through the 70's, before Honda getting involved and 'trading' on the Rover badge heritage for a while, whilst producing real rubbish in the form of that 216 model. The old P5's and P6's were great cars of the day - the 216 is best forgotten about!

The damage to the Rover name unfortunately was ir-reversable, they could not be saved and Rover the brand was all but defunked by the turn of the century (late 90's early 2000's).

Gene:

The only people who are willing to work in factories are the up and coming people who live in countries like China. It's not their fault, it is ours.

But that will change. It's not our "work ethic" that's at fault, it's because we all believe we're better than working in a factory. For kids these days it's all about what looks great on Facebook. That's why lots of <25 year olds have 400+ friends on Facebook. It's all about their image.

I asked a young kid who plays for our Wednesday team, which team he supports. He said "I'm warming towards Man City" (ie. now they are doing well, he can associate with them). He asked me the same and I said "Boro". He couldn't stop laughing. His response? "Why would you want to support them?". As I grew up supporting them? Kids now worry about how it looks to their mates, rather than defining their own way in life. Ironically Facebook doesn't bring us together, it pushes us to be more insecure about ourselves.

This is the point. Kids now don't see it as cool to work hard, work in factories. Our culture has shifted.

However, the more westernised China becomes over time, the more they embrace Facebook/social networking, the more consumer-driven they become, then their culture will also change over time. We're already seeing it now - they are becoming more wealthy from western consumerism and, as a result, they are becoming more consumer-driven, coming over to Europe to buy our brands.

I read recently, for example, that the British brand Mulberry's biggest market is now....China.

Moxxey,

You are also right.

You can't imagine the problems I have getting people to work for me. Working at a bar, or a restaurant isn't what young people think is "5exy", they know it's hard work.

Summer means a lot of work for me, and thus I need to hire more people, so most of my staff are "summer workers". It's getting harder and harder to get workers, as who would want to work at a restaurant? "I'm too precious" or "too high on the social ladder for that".

Even if the pay is very good for a 18-year old. 

So what do these 18-year olds do all summer when school/collage/university is off?

They are free! They live off their parents.

How their parents want to or even afford to support these young grown-ups is beyond me.

And the really funny (actually sad) social behaviour to me, is that in most of the cases the "I'm too good to do dishes" youngsters are from middle or lower-middle class families. The ones that actually work their butts off all summer are from middle-to-high or some are even from high classes! Makes you think what the uppbringing is to do with it.

The kids who can actually afford to jet-ski all summer at the summer house do the dishes, serve tables, work 12h days 5-6 days a week, and don't complain, as nothing is more valuable than work-experience! Whatever you might study or whatever your future line of work may be.

moxxey:

.................and I said "Boro".

Puncher:

moxxey:

.................and I said "Boro".

I don't know what it means, but I'll laugh anyway!

moxxey:

But that will change. It's not our "work ethic" that's at fault, it's because we all believe we're better than working in a factory. For kids these days it's all about what looks great on Facebook. That's why lots of <25 year olds have 400+ friends on Facebook. It's all about their image.

I asked a young kid who plays for our Wednesday team, which team he supports. He said "I'm warming towards Man City" (ie. now they are doing well, he can associate with them). He asked me the same and I said "Boro". He couldn't stop laughing. His response? "Why would you want to support them?". As I grew up supporting them? Kids now worry about how it looks to their mates, rather than defining their own way in life. Ironically Facebook doesn't bring us together, it pushes us to be more insecure about ourselves.

This is the point. Kids now don't see it as cool to work hard, work in factories. Our culture has shifted.

However, the more westernised China becomes over time, the more they embrace Facebook/social networking, the more consumer-driven they become, then their culture will also change over time. We're already seeing it now - they are becoming more wealthy from western consumerism and, as a result, they are becoming more consumer-driven, coming over to Europe to buy our brands.

I read recently, for example, that the British brand Mulberry's biggest market is now....China.

Yes, I totally agree with you.

And with the explosion of facebook/social networking happening so fast, the culture change is speeded up so much. It's not a gradual culture change over a few generations any more, its much quicker with the advent of the internet and the popularity of social networking sites amongst the young generations.

bayerische:

Puncher:

moxxey:

.................and I said "Boro".

I don't know what it means, but I'll laugh anyway!

Middlesbrough supporter -

Moxxey,

 a very recent case in point.

The unemployed geology graduate being forced to work in Poundland for 2 weeks,in order to continue to receive benefits,is suing the Government for breach of her human rights.

bayerische:

I don't know what it means, but I'll laugh anyway!

Puncher:

moxxey:

.................and I said "Boro".

I seriously hope you'll be supporting us against Sunderland on Sunday. It's live on ITV.

Puncher, do you use Facebook? :)

moxxey:

Puncher, do you use Facebook? :)

No chance He's too frightened of revealing his true identity. Aren't you Dave?

The wonderful economist Milton Friedman said many years ago that if we in the US wanted to see where we we will be in 20 years, look at the UK today.  I don't believe even he could conceive the speed of change that has come with globalization and technology.

Given the compression of time, the wealth cycle, and the corresponding need for societies to find a new working class whose labors they can leverage, I am looking forward to getting a second crack at the old textile and chemical manufacturing jobs from my youth and early career before I die/retire. 

moxxey:

Puncher:

moxxey:

.................and I said "Boro".

I seriously hope you'll be supporting us against Sunderland on Sunday. It's live on ITV.

Puncher, do you use Facebook? :)

Puncher LOVES Facebook!

Come on in to WED© thread this week and ask him!

moxxey:

Puncher:

moxxey:

.................and I said "Boro".

I seriously hope you'll be supporting us against Sunderland on Sunday. It's live on ITV.

Puncher, do you use Facebook? :)

Oh Yes, definitely not!

Stonk:

moxxey:

Puncher, do you use Facebook? :)

No chance He's too frightened of revealing his true identity. Aren't you Dave?

Sssccccchhhhhhhh!

Hush-hush.

Puncher:

bayerische:

Puncher:

moxxey:

.................and I said "Boro".

I don't know what it means, but I'll laugh anyway!

 

Middlesbrough supporter -

 

Oh!

I thought that was "Jesse Pinkman" from Breaking Bad.

TerryM:

The unemployed geology graduate being forced to work in Poundland for 2 weeks,in order to continue to receive benefits,is suing the Government for breach of her human rights.

and in an industry close to my heart.......that person must be absolutely f.......ing useless one can only assume. The earth-resourse industry is crying out for Geos everywhere....esp. Aus and Africa.

It has got to be harder falling off the floor than it is to be a Geo Grad and not be offered a job in earth resourses right now!!!

Puncher – My argument is that they didn't have to outsource in order to survive. 15K plus TVs aren't the only thing they sell, they have many audio components that they are a lot more famous for such as the Beosound and Beolab products many of which are reasonably priced in the 1-5k range. B&Os problem is exactly one of becoming a huge corporation that they cannot sustain. Think about how much they pay out to boardmembers, executives, CEO himself gets an extremely high salary, and of course they need to show a rising profit in order for share prices to go up to satisfy them. Many other companies who also sell TVs and Audio equipment for even more than B&O manage to survive perhaps because they don't have this greed. Would the executives be able to survive without the millions in salary and bonuses they get total? A company might show a huge profit publically but they are still able to pay all their employees including execs. Look at non-profit organizations that produce nothing yet most of their employees get paid and the CEO of the non-profit probably also gets a decent salary... Yet they don't make a profit... It doesn't really matter, as long as everyone in the company is getting paid a decent wage and they can survive in that sense it's great but unfortunately for B&O being a public company it doesn't work the same way... The CEOs of such companies will never be happy with just half a million a year and neither will the execs or shareholders getting their moneys worth, nobody really cares what is created. In some sense you don't even need to make anything, just market some junk, make the company publics and the stocks alone will make you the profit because everyone is buying into the marketing hype. The main thing is to make a huge profit, not what you're making and this is what B&O is becoming, unlike many other high end audio brands who manage to survive and do well!

Most of the people who disagree with me and a few other members on the BS8 and Beolit12 on this forum are people like you said 10s of thousands of them, that buy for a brand image. They think it's a great little thing and buy into it. They think oww B&O – Prestige – must be high quality, and it does sound and look better than many other ipod docks. But is it B&O standards? Is it like a BL4000 or BL5 not even close. On top of that what TodDaniel was saying is that he also feels ripped off by the price because they are making an insanely huge profit off the name. Think about it, it costs not much more to produce that BS8 than it does almost any other ipod dock that's made in China, and even if the sound is marginally better it's not worth 5-10 times more than non-brand name ones...

Mr10Percent – Agree with you on that point as well that perhaps that is the problem that people are just buying B&O for style and image rather for quality. B&O has realised that and lowered their quality in order to fit those people. Hence everyone thinks “wow it looks so futiristic/retro and cool, and it says B&O on it, wow I'll have one” Even though it's not even made by them but made by some company similar to Foxconn...  Most people just look at aesthetics, not quality these days. The thing I always loved about B&O is unlike other companies they managed to combine both. Most of their products that were made in Europe were and are advanced for its time both in looks and functionality and the sound quality was always great. Now with the new range it's like you get all of but the sound and build quality of the other products....

TerryM – I completely agree, if you want something of the build quality of the B&O TVs with the same use of high quality components and materials you will pay the same amount if not more than B&O, especially if it's made in a developed country. I am afraid that B&O will eventually become like Nakamichi, a niche brand that used to be known for great design and high quality audio but over the years has dropped quality so badly (both sound and build) and makes nearly everything in China now. ?Hardly anyone buys Nakamichi anymore and their prices haven't really gone down with them outsourcing...

Mr10Percent – In regards to the Lotus, the chassis's of a Lotus are still made in Hethel, Norfolk not Malaysia. In fact Proton has not outsourced any of Lotus production to Malaysia...

Great analysis on the B&O statistics by the way :-) 

Moxxey – Fair point on the investment but Apple already had a factory in California and could have merely expanded it. The fact is that they wanted people to work 6 days a week 12 hours a day, something labour unions would rightly not allow. There's a reason why China is competitive, hell it's slave labour in comparison, fortunately some high end manufacturers still have morals and compassion for their employees and choose to create their own factories, perhaps for companies that produce hundreds of millions of units of something it's more difficult but I certainly hope that B&O won't be as mass produced as that or even a 1/100 of that, it would be quite scary!

Chris – Even with that level of commitment that the Japanese have as you say at Honda. Most Japanese companies (cars aside) outsource their goods to China. My point being is that no matter how good the workers are, no matter how many hours they work (including free overtime) and how dedicated they are to the company. Companies will still let them go, outsource to China, just to have much cheaper labour costs so they can make a higher profit, as most Japanese companies have!

Gene – I live in the USA as well. There are still people (over 10% accounted for unemployment and probably more like 20%) that would love to go back factory work. Everyime a factory opens such as the Fisker factory, or the Tesla factory, or American Apparel, or the Riccar vacuum factory, etc... they always managed to find skilled factory workers!!! Always if they want to that is! Maybe you're not willing to, and I am not, but there are still many who are and would be more than happy to.

The factory wages are not slave wages in the US, they are a little over what Japanes are at around $26 an hour which is about half as much as they pay in many European countries (including Denmark). In 1970 the federal minimum wage was actually much higher than it is now and PPP was also higher according to US Labour Statistcs calculating inflation. Almost everything was made in the US at this time. Many products were cheaper than they are now, for example American cars, houses, etc... (even calculating in todays cost with an inflation calculator). 

I am willing to pay higher prices for those products although they won't have to be much higher. As I stated the Riccar vacuum cleaners are made in the USA and they even mold the plastic there, they are high performance and excellent and start at $200 which is less than Malaysian made Dysons. American Apparel produces t-shirts, underwear, sweaters, etc... for the same price sometimes less than many Chinese made equivilents. I buy American made glass containers and glasses, for less than the price of many Chinese made ones I have seen. There are still many American made products, it's just that they have become Niche and you have to look to find them, not available at Wallmart to say the least.

I am not complaining about higher prices, as stated I think B&O is very fairly priced for what they make (with the exception of the BS8, Beolit 12, etc...) But when it comes to mass manufacturing, look at the few companies I have mentioned, there are thousands others likes that in America, you don't have to pay that much more for something decent! I support those companies and I can buy non-outsourced products without breaking the bank. Just save up and buy the best that will last you many years, this is how it used to be and how it should be! People complain about the environment yet they often are in this throwaway culture as well!

Moxxey – It's true that many don't want to work in factories these days but there are many who do and it's always possible to find such kids. The thing to do is to hire them when they're young, straight out of high school or college. I don't think RR, Lotus or other companies have too hard a trouble finding these people. Neither does Genesis, Vertu, and other companies... If I'm not mistaken many of Mulberry's products are made in China... I don't think that most of the population is getting Richer, it's the less than 1% that spends their money on British name brands who are getting richer whilst everyone else stays the same in poverty...

If I owned a company and produced a good, I would love it if my factory workers could actually afford to buy my products (or I would just give it to them as company christmas presents for their hard work). This is the case in European and American factories where people get paid 25-55$ an hour, but not so in the Chinese factories where they get $1.65 an hour... Although it's not cool for some people to do that kind of work, others think that working creating something is hip and they feel like craftsmen doing it. The higher salaries in Europe alone should be an incentive to many and if they are ambitious they can become a product manager for example and get even more money and work up the ranks...