Agree with you! I think B&O are in need of a quick period of upgrading. Obviously some BL9s could be a good start and the BS3 is now excellent. Which BV4 did you have? The true Full HD one? However I will not deny that B&O are lagging a bit at present. I think Masterlink needs to be upgraded and that the LCD screens are still not that impressive. Hopefully the new BS3 based BV7 could be the answer.

Maybe until they do you should keep what you have and get a bit of vintage equipment to keep your hand in! When we finally get ML2 and some truly innovative products, then I would buy.  

Hi Pushkin,

I think your reaction is perfectly legitimate, and it is also the kind of reaction that a top-end manufacturer (of any kind of product) must listen to. I dropped away from the B&O brand in the late 90s and am coming back now. But I am also very critical of what I would buy from the range.

One simply has to recognize that there are lots of manufacturers out there who are turning out quite excellent products -- and that the B&O price premium is hard to defend unless it's backed by a performance that rivals other offerings. I am hugely impressed by the BL5s, BL3 - have spent some time listening to the BL9s, but not at home yet. The BL4000s/6000s remain great for their use.

B&O should have gone for SACD in their players - it's not that hard to implement, and it provides richer sound for those who desire richer sound. A lot of classical and jazz recordings are made available in that format, and it's quite an experience when the recording, and the speaker setup, match!

The brand has to deliver FOREGROUND MUSIC, and not be satisfied with giving background music to people who don't sit down to listen attentively. 

As to screens. For a rectangular flatscreen, wall mounted, such as the one you let go, it's hard to justify the B&O price unless the performance matches what's otherwise available.

Pioneer is making it hard for a lot of manufacturers, as they are making a serious effort to achieve the ultimate in Plasma with their Project Kuro. Pioneer seems set on spending as much on that as Toyota did developing the Prius!
And this is where B&O deselection can come back and bite the brand - B&O has always taken out what it considers unnecessary or superfluous, in order to simplify operation; but competitors are stacking everything they can think of into their products, thus ensuring that they meet a large variety of need sets.
I still think that B&O is capable of superior integration of elements, and that BeoSystem 3 will help in that respect. But look forward to superior performance matching the high prices of products across the range.

In the days of CRT (weird saying that not long after we were saying 'plasma won't take on that quickly'), B&O were ahead of the game. It's pretty safe to say that the latest and greatest version of the Avant was the best CRT TV ever made and still has just about the best picture on the market.

However, when B&O dropped the Avant (not literally) and replaced it with the BeoVision 7, they took a supermassive leap back in terms of picture performance (although everything else got better). It's only very very recently (BeoSystem 3 introduction) that I feel the picture performance of the BeoVisions has started to get anywhere near what the Avant could do. Sure the Avant wasn't HD, but it didn't need to be. IMO the only BeoVisions which have surpassed the Avant in terms of picture are the BeoVision 4 and 9, which are essentially the same television! Even then, some may still prefer the Avant's picture.

The BeoVision 7 looks like it's going to be a cracker when it's updated though, as at the moment I feel it's performance lags very far behind the other BeoVisions. The US members who have seen it so far have said the performance surpasses the BeoVision 9, which means a pretty amazing picture.

I think you should wait for a bit, until B&O have updated all their TVs. It's a shame they seem to be doing things in large leaps, rather than updating the sets more often. This was fine with the CRTs, as technology moved much slower then. However, now we're just over the edge of the never ending HD-upgrade abyss, B&O need to keep on top of new technology much quicker. I think they can do this with the BeoSystem 3 though, and implementing it into the BeoVision 7 will give them a much better stance in comparison to other brands out there at the moment.

In terms of sound, if you've gone from BeoLab 8000s or 3s to B&Ws, then you will have definitely noticed an increase in performance. I swear by B&W speakers, and only since B&O has introduced the BeoLab 9s and 5s do I feel they have managed to rival other manufacturers such as B&W's performance in terms of bang for your buck.

I'm interested to see what B&O does with the speaker range though, as to me it looks a bit divided at the moment, with BeoLab 5s and 9s in one group which can easily compete with speaker/amp combos of the same price from other brands, and 4s, 4000s, 6000s and 3s in the other and 8000s somewhere in the middle, both kinda struggling to make their price tag seem acceptable in terms of their sonic performance. I hope B&O release more speakers in the same group as the 5s and 9s, as they really need sound performance to match the picture.

Very good thread.

 With the price of the BeoVision 4, WHY HAVEN'T B&O USED THE PIONEER PANELS?!

I agree with you, Mecca

I do not actually NEED a EUR.8000 tv, but that stuff is as beautifull when switched off as efficient when switched on, in terms of integration, simplicity, excellent if not best picture  and sound. Design is more my religion than best and latest technology...

Cheers, Laurent.

Peter:

Because until recently, Panasonic made the best screens. They are still very highly rated. Actually it is the LCD panels I have the most problem with and this is common to all the brands,

I agree with Peter. Though Pioneer seems to have an upper hand, the differences in high-quality plasma between brands aren't that telling.

And LCD has made great improvements in just a few years. B&O had to join the flatscreen-trend, because its customers were screaming for flatscreens - but all manufacturers of flats knew that they were stepping down in image quality compared to CRT, so go figure what it actually is that customers want!

Today's LCDs are getting to a high enough quality level.

The other point made in the thread, about quality of manufacture and craftsmanship, is another added value. Just consider the Grado RS1 headphones. They're a statement and a philosophy - they're also at the top of the price range. Are they significantly better than headphones costing quite a lot less. Not necessarily - it depends upon the quality of your source and style of music you are listening to. Do they induce pride of ownership and sheer pleasure in workmanship - you bet.

Same with B&O. But the ideal is to join craftsmanship with technological edge.

Though one also has to wonder where it should stop ...
I spent some hours yesterday listening to a USD 350.000 sound system.

It consisted of six McIntosh monobloque amplification units, two separate pre-amps, a massive CD-source, and two fireplace-sized JBL Everest DD66000 speakers. The amplifiers delivered 2000W through three units, to each speaker.
Yes - the sound was simply luscious. But all that hardware in the living room? I'm serious, it was as if someone had stacked three ovens, TWICE, in the living room, next to the speakers, which were also considerable.
The final result was wonderful and precise sound - but the road there? And it wasn't very convenient ...

Consider the BL5s in comparison, with 2x2.500W amplification, inside the speakers. That's a major achievement - and with proper sources it can be an outstanding setup for an audiophile. (And - just to make the point, it's not the number of W a system can output that defines its excellence. But having that power reservoir handy for short, needed bursts (particularly in the bass) can create spectacular music.)

B&O makes the grade across the range, but needs to also sharpen (or even simplify) its act, in order to deliver a select number of standout products true to the brand's philosophy. GM has messed up a lot of car brands by not preserving the integrity of each through unique and powerful solutions - let's trust that B&O sees a future being the Aston Martin of AV, and not in being GM ...
 

I hear what a lot of you are saying but I think you are missing the point of what Bang & Olufsen represent.  If you where TRUE B&O fans, you would realise that its not just picture and sound quality (even though the BeoVision 9 beats any plasma panel out there for picture, build quality, and shear magical delight) but its how different an approach Bang & Olufsen takes on everything they do. 

They havn't joined all other manufacturers and started mass producing cheap plastic panels that are out of date 3 months later and look out of place.  There is a lot of history with bang & Olufsen and evrything they do is the same today, e.g someone that put effort into hand building a BeoCenter 9000 is still building a BeoSound 4 today.  You could buy a Pioneer plasma today, 5 years later its worth nothing, looks dated and its old hat!  You can't expect a 4 year old B&O plasma to be compared to a latest Pioneer screen built today as a lot changes in 4 years.  All I can say is that B&O will allways have the latest technolgy and screens when you place your order so why are some of you comparing a 4 year old screen with a latest pioneer???  Anyway, if B&O thought that by using a pioneer screen would be a better bet than Panasonic, they don't you think they would use them!

I love what B&O do and am a big fan, I love B&O not just for the picture and sound, but that they take a different approach to any other manufacturer.  Well done Bang & Olufsen - Continue making great products.

I think a lot of B&O products do have the magical feel you mention. However the TV range perhaps does not. I am a true B&O fan - I have more bits of B&O than I care to divulge! - but I am also not blinkered. The BV4 is a Panasonic screen with a silver frame. It is not made in Denmark. Nothing wrong with that as Panasonic do make great screens but the technology moves on fast and for a screen to be outperformed massively in a short time does not fit with the B&O philosophy of product longevity. Remember one is paying premium prices for screens that are slightly behind the times. This is about to be rectified, but note that there is no price increase in the UK which would rather suggest that the profit margin on the old screens was quite high as the new ones are certainly more expensive.

I actually rather like the BS4 but each to their own.  

Good first post though! Welcome to Beoworld! 

Thanks Peter for your reply.

 I agree with what you are saying to a point (I also own lots of B&O new & old) but I do think that the TV's still do give that magical feeling especially since the BeoVision 7 was launched.  Everything about the BeoVision 7 is B&O and its not what screens you use (E.g. Samsung for their LCD Panels) but its what you do with them.  The engine that drives B&O screens are excellent, not too over processed, not too many gimics, and its not just about picture quality.  The colours are natural, the blacks are amazing. 

When I was in Denmark recently, in the viewing room, there where about 5 screens, 1 of which was the same brand of screen that B&O uses.  The B&O was almost perfect in every test.  Its all down to the engine that drives the screen.  BeoSystem 3 is great.  Like I said, B&O ONLY use manufacturers that can give them the performance they require and that isn't Pioneer. (Also, BeoVision 9 will now be FULL HD 1080!!)

You do pay a lot more money for bang & Olufsen, but at the end of the day, you get what you pay for otherwise they wouldn't have custromers coming back every time.  I don't think there are any other brands that have customer loyalty as Bang & Olufsen.

I beleive if people go off B&O then they weren't a true fan in the first place.  I like some of the comments other people have given on here especially the guy that has a $350,000 system.  I think B&O are a bargain fvor what you get.  BeoLab 5's compared to some other £30K speakers, there is no contest!!  What a bargain, and you get the amps included.

I don't know anyone who has sold all their up to date B&O kit, if they did, they must need the extra money.

I also have been a great fan of B&O for years and have 2 complete systems and other components.  I also have 2 Beogram 7000's but I only use one at a time.  The second one is a spare so that I will have a Beogram turntable for many years.  I think that qualifies me as a fanatic.

I have listened to the Beolab 9 and was very impressed.  I thought it had almost a warm sound.  However for the other products, I am very dismayed especially about the forthcoming Beosound 6 digital player.  Digital music players players are an area that B&O should avoid.  I have a Beomedia 1 and I like it but it took me a long time to get use to using it.  The manual for it was certainly lacking.

As for televisions, I purchased a Toshiba HD LCD as my interim TV because of price.  I think it will take B&O at least another 3 years to sort out what they are going to do in this area.  In the meantime, I cannot justify spending a huge amount just to get a B&O TV.  I will buy a B&O TV later when they have a product that will be current for a longer time.  I have had my MX5000 for 18 years and it still has a great picture.  The Avant is another great design that still looks good.

Finally in the US, B&O is quickly becoming a product for the very wealthy.  This is mostly due to the falling dollar.  Many people are no longer considering Bang and Olufsen.  Certainly nobody here is going to pay $800 for a Beosound 6 when one can have an iPhone for $600.  I bought two iPhones.  The sound is just like the earlier Ipods.  It is difficult to keep the faith.

mattyd:

If you where TRUE B&O fans, you would realise that its not just picture and sound quality (even though the BeoVision 9 beats any plasma panel out there for picture, build quality, and shear magical delight) but its how different an approach Bang & Olufsen takes on everything they do.

This is probably a tough place to be telling people they're not TRUE B&O fans. 

To give you an idea of where I am coming from, I have owned B&O audio and televisions since the early 80s, and my father gave me the bug when I was a kid, and he bought a Beolab/Beomaster 5000.
B&O audio used to be top notch - there was a range, and you could buy up to the top models in the range.
The brand also mastered video, creating the brilliant MX series, the Avant (and other TVs).
Integration was simply unique, and on a level of its own.
Material craftsmanship and design expression were also outstanding.

Seeing B&O's success, other manufacturers are moving in on B&O terrain, imitating what helped the brand to prominence. Which means that the brand isn't as outstanding as it used to be. But B&O have faced up to challenges before, and have met them - I'm rooting for the brand to do so again.
I have products in my house from the 70s, through the 80s/90s and all the way to BL3. (Tomorrow I'm picking up another Beomaster 6500, for instance).

I think Pushkin's criticism is fair in that he expected both a unique design expression and technical brilliance from his products -- and he was "surprised" when he found that others are also delivering in that respect, at another price level. And do note that his BS4 was six months old, not four years.
That said, it's hard to do much with a rectangular flatscreen intended to hang on a wall, except ensure that the image and connectors are also state-of-the-art in that category.
Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if B&O switch to Pioneer, should the difference in picture quality remain obvious. (Though you can be certain other manufacturers are seeking to catch up).

With you I keep expecting B&O to make great products. The Advanced Sound System for the Audis is a major achievement in that respect - but I want that incredible experience inside my home, as well!  

AND TO MAKE CLEAR: I don't HAVE a USD 350.000 system. But I did listen to one yesterday ...
 

Thanks for the reply Peter, I also am lucky to have new and old B&O kit.

I disagree with you a bit though, as the BeoVision 7 is definately a magical TV by Bang & Olufsen and is stunning in every way. The picture is almost perfect, the sound is the best anyone has ever given a TV, the DVD is magical, the scrolling display is magical, motorised stand - need I say more!

Its not just about picture quality, the colours that B&O produce are natural, not over processed like most all other manufacturers, the Blacks are very deep and bring our excellent contrast.  Its all down to the processing or engine that B&O give all their TV's.  The glass they use etc etc. You get what you pay for, I'm a big beleiver in that.  I was in Denmark a little while ago and in the viewing room.  There were 5 TV's, one of which was the same screen that B&O uses.  The B&O was almost perfect in every test.

Bang & Olufsen will only use screens by Manufacturers that can give B&O the performance they require, and that isn't Pioneer.  So sorry guys, i'm afraid your wrong.  I beleive that its all in the mind.  If you see a Pioneer screen for say £2K and you then walk across the road and look at a B&O screen for £11K, then your mind is going to think that Pioneer is obviously better. hhhmmmmmm.

I'll leave this one with you.

Matt.

But even if you would order now the latest Beovision 9. You still don 't have a picture quality the comes even close to the latest Kuro Pioneer plasma televisions.  The Panasonic panel used in the Beovision 9 is just not that good as the Pioneer Kuro. And the full HD plasma panel from Panasonic is at the moment, half the contrast of the WXGA version also from Panasonic. 

So try to be honest ..

http://www.hdtvorg.co.uk/reviews/plasma/pioneer_pdp-508xd.htm

 http://blog.homecinemachoice.com/page/homecinemachoice?entry=pioneer_pdp_508xd_web_exclusive

The Panasonic panel used in the Beovision 9 is just not that good as the Pioneer Kuro...

Yes and if you look at Samsung LCD it isn't as good as the BV7!!.. But they use the same panel???... so way do you think that you can compare Panasonic with Pioneer, and then say the BV9 isn't good on that background ??? just about the same as an American car is better, because it's has the double amount of hp then a European car....

Agreed! The BeoVision 9 is stunning mainly because of the BeoSystem 3 powering it. It's got a good panel, a very good panel - even if it isn't the best panel on the entire market. Nonetheless it's the best picture I've seen on any set around at the moment.

RE the BeoVision 7, yes it's still very magical, and the sound is second to none, the way DVDs work is funky, the build quality is stunning and the picture is good. However when you compare it to other TVs in the B&O range, it seems poor! Compare it to a BeoCenter 6 or BeoVision 9/4, and you will see what I mean!

I can say that because I have seen them both in one store.

The blacks of the Beovison 9 are gray compared to the new Pioneer serie. Also the 50 hz flickering is stillvisible at the Beovision 9. (unless you can change that setting, wich I don't know) The Pioneer gives a non flickering picture. To me I cannot believe anyone who says at this moment the Beovision 9 picture is better.

I bet a lot who say this, haven 't seen the new Pioneer yet.

Black levels and 100 Hz flicker are not the only aspects of a picture though. I personally find the flicker a BeoVision 5 produces quite irritating, but it seems less of a problem with the 9 to me. I can't say it's ever made it difficult to view TBH!

Black levels could be better, but they are still pretty impressive with the BeoVision 9.

mattyd:

I hear what a lot of you are saying but I think you are missing the point of what Bang & Olufsen represent.  If you where TRUE B&O fans, you would realise that its not just picture and sound quality (even though the BeoVision 9 beats any plasma panel out there for picture, build quality, and shear magical delight) but its how different an approach Bang & Olufsen takes on everything they do. 

They havn't joined all other manufacturers and started mass producing cheap plastic panels that are out of date 3 months later and look out of place.  There is a lot of history with bang & Olufsen and evrything they do is the same today, e.g someone that put effort into hand building a BeoCenter 9000 is still building a BeoSound 4 today.  You could buy a Pioneer plasma today, 5 years later its worth nothing, looks dated and its old hat!  You can't expect a 4 year old B&O plasma to be compared to a latest Pioneer screen built today as a lot changes in 4 years.  All I can say is that B&O will allways have the latest technolgy and screens when you place your order so why are some of you comparing a 4 year old screen with a latest pioneer???  Anyway, if B&O thought that by using a pioneer screen would be a better bet than Panasonic, they don't you think they would use them!

I love what B&O do and am a big fan, I love B&O not just for the picture and sound, but that they take a different approach to any other manufacturer.  Well done Bang & Olufsen - Continue making great products.

Amen. You can compare numbers and charts all day, and all you'll know is numbers.  It's just a game to try to get consumers to buy the newest thing.  What I like about B&O is that they don't "play the game" they way most big companies do.  If anything, they understate themselves in their marketing; they could really do a lot more boasting about their products than they do!

I am a devout believer that more tech specs does not necessarily mean better performance. I come from a recording engineering background.  When I was going to school, how many times did I see (and-- admittedly --participate in) the gear lust happening in a recording session!  "If I use the latest greatest microphones, and use this outboard gear with the xyz processors in it, and I do this fancy trick on ProTools, man, my  recording is going to be AWESOME..." 

...And it's not...

Why?  Because it's done by an amateur in school.  Our professors underlined to us so many times that it's not as much about the gear as it is the person using the gear.  You can take a few cheap SM57s in a pinch, and, if you know what you are doing, get a good-sounding recording.  I have heard SO MANY stunning recordings that were made by good, experienced, golden-eared engineers with just a few microphones in a less-than-ideal setup.  And how many bad recordings do we have out there, done by people who are either inexperienced or don't have good ears?  Ugh.  But if you give a GREAT engineer a few GREAT products to work with, the recordings are only that much better.

B&O have been making speakers for almost 90 years, and TVs for over 50.  Their components and specs may not be as *sparkly* as the newer companies, but gosh, what they do with those components-- wow!  It's the countless little things they put into their products-- things they've learned by being around the block a time or two-- that really make the difference between good and great.

That said, I do feel that B&O falls short when it comes to anything related to computers.  They should have known not to drink that poison.  If you want to enter the world of computers, you have to be ready for a super-fast race and constant upkeep of your software and integration.  BeoPlayer is miserable, BeoPort doesn't work well with Macs, BeoSound 2 is a good product but hard to get set up without BeoPlayer, BeoMedia is cool but runs (and crashes) like Windows... and so on.  B&O should stick to what they are amazing at, and let the computer companies deal with the hurricane we call the computer industry.

 And since I realize I've been rambling, and I've gotten off-topic a bit, to respond to the initial question: Bless you, brother, for wanting to stay true to the religion!  There are a lot of good products out there with good performance.  It's OK to admit that.  It's OK to use them.  But take a look at B&O's history, their company philosophy, their overall genuineness in approach.  They aren't perfect, but they are solid. We say here in the States, "your dollar is your vote." What kind of company do you want to be supporting? A gimmicky industry that hypes everything up and changes their product line every two months?

And on a more practical level, also realize that speaker and TV performance will be affected by the room they are in, as well as how good your installer was . Maybe you just had the wrong "fit" for your room with your first B&O kit.

My two cents, for what it's worth.

-Aj