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ARCHIVED FORUM -- April 2007 to March 2012
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This is the first Archived Forum which was active between 17th April 2007 and 1st March February 2012

 

Latest post 09-04-2011 2:17 PM by BillC. 238 replies.
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  • 08-20-2011 6:35 PM In reply to

    Re: B&O News

    Paul, I wasn't being arrogant. I can simply see from your posts that while you're very passionate about certian brands and products, you're not very clear on the nature of the electronics industry and the electronics themselves. You make some very bold statements that certain things are "rubbish" or "toilets" but you don't seem to understand what differentiates a good product from a bad one.

    I merely meant to suggest that you could ask the group here, which is fairly knowledgeable, some questions to help you better understand B&O and the consumer AV industry in general. I think you'd enjoy really getting into how the whole thing comes together and how brands that may not have stellar reputations on the retail market may make some excellent parts that they'd never use in their own branded gear. 

    Using cars as an analogy, there are several small bespoke makers who use major makers as parts suppliers to produce a product that outperforms the brands from which those parts came. Seldom do these exotic makers build their own engines, transmissions, etc. They concentrate on executing their design with the huge parts bin that already exists. 

    So please don't take offense. You're obviously very excited about the things you like and I'm glad that some of them are Bang & Olufsen. Hopefully you'll be as excited about our future offerings. And really, please don't hesitate to put a question to the group where you're unsure of something. There are many dealers and many electronics experts who would be glad to answer your questions. 

    There is scarcely anything in this world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey. - John Ruskin

  • 08-21-2011 3:31 AM In reply to

    Re: B&O News

    As with all companies, there hits and misses. B&O are no different. I agree with Trip that the CD mechanisms made initially by Philips but later by a spun off company are some of the best available. Do remember that may of the so called top makes actually use computer drives which are far cheaper and have nothing like the build quality.

    I do however agree with Paul that the DVD1 was not a high point in B&O design - the best part of this machine was the ability to integrate it - that actual DVD player was very basic. They did change the player to a Pioneer in its later incarnations, though whether this was actually any better is debatable.

    The problem with any company's producys is knowing which are good and which are less desirable. I think BeoWorld helps in this regard. With respect to Trip, he is not in a position to say thatb Beolab 4s are vastly overpriced for what are not much more than computer speakers with very cheap amplifiers and that the first LCD sets were appalling (as all early LCD sets were!)

    However B&O have also produced some brilliant products - the Beolab 5 is an obvious example but this technology has influenced other more affordable products like the Beolab 3. I am looking forward to the next 6 months!

  • 08-21-2011 5:05 AM In reply to

    • Kokomo
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    Re: B&O News

    Peter :
    I do however agree with Paul that the DVD1 was not a high point in B&O design - the best part of this machine was the ability to integrate it - that actual DVD player was very basic. They did change the player to a Pioneer in its later incarnations, though whether this was actually any better is debatable.

    I don't wish to promote or develop a "B&O are a rip-off" discussion, because I don't believe they are, but dealing solely with the DVD 1 (which I still have and which works fine!), I am aware the central electronics/mechanisms are Philips which were also fitted in Philips branded products.

    I wonder therfore how B&O justified (if indeed they ever did) charging me 800 GBP many years ago for what was basically an empty casing with Philips parts inside? 

    Was I "ripped off"? I didn't feel so and still don't, but I must admit I can see a case could be made for thinking I perhaps was! 

  • 08-21-2011 5:56 AM In reply to

    • moxxey
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    Re: B&O News

    Kokomo:

    I don't wish to promote or develop a "B&O are a rip-off" discussion, because I don't believe they are.....but I must admit I can see a case could be made for thinking I perhaps was! 

    Eh? :)

  • 08-21-2011 6:34 AM In reply to

    Re: B&O News

    Kokomo:

    Peter :
    I do however agree with Paul that the DVD1 was not a high point in B&O design - the best part of this machine was the ability to integrate it - that actual DVD player was very basic. They did change the player to a Pioneer in its later incarnations, though whether this was actually any better is debatable.

    I don't wish to promote or develop a "B&O are a rip-off" discussion, because I don't believe they are, but dealing solely with the DVD 1 (which I still have and which works fine!), I am aware the central electronics/mechanisms are Philips which were also fitted in Philips branded products.

    I wonder therfore how B&O justified (if indeed they ever did) charging me 800 GBP many years ago for what was basically an empty casing with Philips parts inside? 

    Was I "ripped off"? I didn't feel so and still don't, but I must admit I can see a case could be made for thinking I perhaps was! 

    I think the pricing of the DVD1 was very questionable! As indeed was the V8000 which again was effectively a reboxed Grundig. The pricing of B&O video recorders was always high though the VX5000 did offer a massive amount of facilities. The problem was that the models that came after were stripped of all the facilities and kept the price. Compare a VX5000 and a VX7000 and you wonder how a similar price could be charged. These at least were stylish though - the V6000 and V8000 were originally mid range models which then became top of the range with a top of the range price tag. Interesting that the last of the V8000s were sold off at about £200 - rather closer to their worth. 

    It is however relatively pointless to look at price with B&O - the real question is 'is it worth it to me?' In the case of many products, the answer is yes! The BS8 is a case in point - a good iPod dock can be bought for £100 - I have one! It does not have the style or feel of a BS8 though.

     

  • 08-21-2011 6:57 AM In reply to

    • Kokomo
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    Re: B&O News

    moxxey:

    Kokomo:

    I don't wish to promote or develop a "B&O are a rip-off" discussion, because I don't believe they are.....but I must admit I can see a case could be made for thinking I perhaps was! 

    Eh? :)

     

    Too complicated a concept Moxxey?

    My meaning, which I perhaps failed miserably to convey, was basically that one person's idea of what is VFM can be so very different from someones else's.

     

  • 08-21-2011 7:05 AM In reply to

    • Kokomo
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    Re: B&O News

    Peter :
    The problem was that the models that came after were stripped of all the facilities and kept the price.

    You've reminded me of something Peter. When I bought my VX8000 (I think that was the model #) I read about the spec' and when I finally bought it, it didn't have the PIP facility I expected. When I queried this with my dealer, he checked the serial number and told me that B&O had just dropped this from the recorder's specification, but I could pay to have a PIP chip fitted to my LX TV which I did. It was my first experience of PIP and I thought the extra was well worth it as I used it all the time, even though I didn't think I would be paying extra for it!  

  • 08-21-2011 8:57 AM In reply to

    • moxxey
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    Re: B&O News

    Peter :

    [It is however relatively pointless to look at price with B&O - the real question is 'is it worth it to me?' In the case of many products, the answer is yes! The BS8 is a case in point - a good iPod dock can be bought for £100 - I have one! It does not have the style or feel of a BS8 though.

    One thing that I do like on the BS8 (and there's a separate thread for this) is that the quality of internet radio streaming and speakers, is superb. Better than my BS4+DAB+BL3 combo. Interesting. I guess if you have a good broadband connection, it streams at a rate higher than DAB can handle. Either that or my DAB signal is relatively poor.

    It's definitely a good balance between value and B&O quality. You're buying a proper B&O product at a <£1000 price.

  • 08-21-2011 9:59 AM In reply to

    • Style
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    Re: B&O News

    DAB is usually very poor bitrate. FM is very underrated when it comes to sound quality. The rationale for DAB is more channels in a shrinking frequency spectra. The absence of hiss fouls you.
  • 08-21-2011 12:22 PM In reply to

    • Puncher
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    Re: B&O News

    Peter :
    It is however relatively pointless to look at price with B&O - the real question is 'is it worth it to me?'

     

    For once we disagree, I think price is not pointless in this day and age and I think the CEO recognises that. While pushing ahead into emerging markets of new "fat cats", he is also introducing new product aimed at the young and less affluent and also readdressing the prices of TV's. The price of product cannot continue to rise at the rate it is, against competition whose price is heading in the opposite direction. It's an old complaint which will no doubt get certain members of the community mounting their high horses but, nevertheless, it is true.

    Generally speaking, you aren't learning much if your lips are moving.

  • 08-21-2011 12:24 PM In reply to

    • Puncher
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    Re: B&O News

    TripEnglish:

    Puncher:
    Wow! - B&O are the only OEM I know that share material & labour costs of their products with high street retailers!

    You need to meet more OEMs. Maybe you can flutter your eyelashes and one will invite you to the OEM ball where you dazzle them all with your sparkling wit and they can whisper their material costs in your ear.

    Wink

    On the other hand, I could just claim to be better informed than I actually amWink!

    Generally speaking, you aren't learning much if your lips are moving.

  • 08-21-2011 1:12 PM In reply to

    • Beofan2
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    Re: B&O News

    Peter :

    However B&O have also produced some brilliant products - the Beolab 5 is an obvious example but this technology has influenced other more affordable products like the Beolab 3. I am looking forward to the next 6 months!

    Can we expect some new ALT speakers in near future? You seems to know something!

    It´s not magic - it´s Bang & Olufsen

  • 08-21-2011 3:12 PM In reply to

    Re: B&O News

    Puncher:

    TripEnglish:

    Puncher:
    Wow! - B&O are the only OEM I know that share material & labour costs of their products with high street retailers!

    You need to meet more OEMs. Maybe you can flutter your eyelashes and one will invite you to the OEM ball where you dazzle them all with your sparkling wit and they can whisper their material costs in your ear.

    Wink

    On the other hand, I could just claim to be better informed than I actually amWink!

    It's always worked for me. Though batting my eyelashes is nearly as effective. 

    There is scarcely anything in this world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey. - John Ruskin

  • 08-21-2011 3:19 PM In reply to

    Re: B&O News

    Puncher:

    Peter :
    It is however relatively pointless to look at price with B&O - the real question is 'is it worth it to me?'

    For once we disagree, I think price is not pointless in this day and age and I think the CEO recognises that. While pushing ahead into emerging markets of new "fat cats", he is also introducing new product aimed at the young and less affluent and also readdressing the prices of TV's. The price of product cannot continue to rise at the rate it is, against competition whose price is heading in the opposite direction. It's an old complaint which will no doubt get certain members of the community mounting their high horses but, nevertheless, it is true.

    I think this is correct. Tue hasn't communicated very much beyond what's been reported here, but I think as we enter dealer meeting season we'll hear a lot more specifics about how we intend to position ourselves for younger and less affluent buyers. 

    I personally can't recall there ever being such a bold announcement about a product retiring as with the BeoSound 9000 & 3200. Nice things were said about them, as at all retirement parties, but the message is clearly: "That's not us anymore."

    I don't know about many product specifics yet, but the overall theme seems to be more products, better products, cheaper products. I think many here will be pleased.

    There is scarcely anything in this world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey. - John Ruskin

  • 08-21-2011 5:37 PM In reply to

    • moxxey
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    Re: B&O News

    Beofan2:

    Can we expect some new ALT speakers in near future? You seems to know something!

    I think Peter was speculating based on the forthcoming new product category and planned new TV chassis to be announced in September. I don't think anyone, including Peter, Trip or dealers, know exactly what these new products will be in the new category.

    My guess would be a smaller dock. I can't think of anything else!

  • 08-21-2011 8:00 PM In reply to

    Re: B&O News

    moxxey:

    Beofan2:

    Can we expect some new ALT speakers in near future? You seems to know something!

    I think Peter was speculating based on the forthcoming new product category and planned new TV chassis to be announced in September. I don't think anyone, including Peter, Trip or dealers, know exactly what these new products will be in the new category.

    My guess would be a smaller dock. I can't think of anything else!

    Moxxey's right. There's only one product I know about and I only know what it is and not exactly what it will look like. 

    We're not as airtight as Apple, but usually we hear more about the general idea of products throughout the year and then see them for the first time at the dealer meetings. With as many sheep in the fields as there are I don't think this forum has really been taken by surprise yet as far as what's coming. 

    There is scarcely anything in this world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey. - John Ruskin

  • 08-22-2011 1:03 AM In reply to

    Re: B&O News

    The way B&O are heading, does anyone think that they've sort of missed a  few beats?

    I was looking at the Sonos product over the weekend. Isn't this really just a major improvement, and modernising, over what B&O have been doing for years? Isn't this the sort of thing that B&O should have evolved to?

    I sort of feel that B&O dropped the ball big time, and that they really need to leapfrog everyone else..

    My B&O: 2009 Catalogue and Pricelist

  • 08-22-2011 2:20 AM In reply to

    • Roger
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    Re: B&O News

    I do belive that this is the time for B&O. There are so many music formats out there, an endless access to "internet radio", your music collection is bigger/wider than ever before - that we do need B&O to provide us with easy access to it all. The BeoSound 5 Encore does this, but it is their premium product and as such a bit pricey. But it shows the potential B&O has now.

    Some may remember the death of B&O when they released the "2000" video format, when "everyone" knew that the battle was between Beta and VHS - and, of course, the fact that B&O was the king of record players and that the CD area would lead to the death of the company. We all know that they integrated their VHS players better than anyone, and David Lewis approach to the CD format was a breath of fresh air. The BeoSound 5 Encore, and its lower price point now, gives me faith in B&O. I had to live with the BS5 for a while before I loved it (as was the case with the in-your-face-design of the BS9k, IMHO).

    But B&O need a new break point. Speakers like the 8002, 6002, 2 and 4000 should be priced at the level they were ten years ago. Now. I do understand that making, selling and marketing "budget" products is tricky for anyone dealing with expensive products - but the BeoLab 4 is today's V8000, HDR-1 or DVD-1(/-2) and they need to address the price and slice it in half.

    They claim they will address this with their new all-digital tv platform. They will bring the price policy back to the 90's: The MX was expensive, but sold well and was considered a solid product. The new entry level TV will be priced below 20.000 DKK, and the new "Avant" will be priced at 2x Philips/Sony (top of the line) as the original Avant was. I am sure that they will keep their Aston Martin range (BV 4-85 etc), but I do not know what they will do with the segment currently filled by the 7-40 and 7-55. I guess the new CEO has a busy schedule Big Smile

    We have all heard about the BeoLab that will sit between the 3 and 9, but their focus has been on TV's - but they may just release the entry level TV, the BS8 "light" and BS8 Link/PL this fall?

    Roger

  • 08-22-2011 6:39 AM In reply to

    • moxxey
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    Re: B&O News

    Roger:

    We have all heard about the BeoLab that will sit between the 3 and 9, but their focus has been on TV's - but they may just release the entry level TV, the BS8 "light" and BS8 Link/PL this fall?

    According to Tue's latest announcement, their new focus is going to be audio. That's their strength and theh need to build on this.

    One irony about B&O products is that the initial launch should be expensive but economies of scale should allow for a reduction, over time, when these products become easier and cheaper to manufacture. With B&O products, it's the opposite. They release a new product - such as the BV10-40 - and it simply goes up in price over time. There can't be any other high street electronics retailer that follows a similar sales plan? For example, the BL4000s, for me, were always low cost B&O speakers. Now they are edging closer to £2000. But they are, effectively, the same speaker that was on sale 11 years ago?

  • 08-22-2011 7:29 AM In reply to

    Re: B&O News

    I'd just like to see the real successor to the Avant that we've all been promised for so long.

     

    Any info ??

  • 08-22-2011 7:43 AM In reply to

    • Roger
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    Re: B&O News

    To be perfectly clear: The Avant was replaced by the BeoVision 7 series. But as we all know: a product like the 7-40 is too expensive. It will have to be replaced by a TV that sells for 2x the TOL Sony/Philips, as the old Avant did, as sources within B&O claims it will.

    Roger

  • 08-22-2011 7:46 AM In reply to

    • moxxey
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    Re: B&O News

    Flappo:

    I'd just like to see the real successor to the Avant that we've all been promised for so long.

    I thought that was the BV10? I was told by my dealer that the BV10 is the new Avant - great picture, reasonable sound, good design.

    How many "new Avant's" do we need? And why does it need to be a "new Avant"? Talking about targetting the old-school B&O market. I can't believe dealers - and us - are still discussing the Avant. I stopped discussing the Avant over six years ago.

  • 08-22-2011 7:55 AM In reply to

    • Kokomo
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    Re: B&O News

    moxxey:
    I stopped discussing the Avant over six years ago.

     

    Accept for this posting eh moxxey?

     

    Stick out tongue

  • 08-22-2011 8:45 AM In reply to

    Re: B&O News

    I want a true all in one , as Roger said at a realistic price.

    The Bv7 40 at my local dealer is c £13k. Sorry , but that's just daft. I'd be happy to fork out c. 5-6k just like the avant was but twice that ? I could get a whole mid to high end a/v system for that. Exc Projector etc etc

    The 10 is ok , but where's the built in blu ray player ?

    Twice the price of a top end Sony is £6k so in the real world that's what b&o should aim for.

  • 08-22-2011 9:01 AM In reply to

    Re: B&O News

    Well, many of the arguments shared here have been shared before and are - sorry for that - repetitive. Sorry for beeing harsh on that.

    I agree with you that some of the prices are doubtfull but comparing prices from 2000 with prices of of today is ridiculous even if you also compare other brands prices.

    Moreover I agree with you that some decisions made proved beeing not the best but in the end BEO still provides many high quality products that you and me are willing to spend high end prices for.

    Even more and from my point of view even more important in terms of non financial aspect you and me are spending time on beoworld.org talking about BEO. There must be something about it?!

    Would you spend that amount of time and "mental acivity" on a <1k€ Sony or whatever brand plastic TV. I would definitely not and in case something is wrong with it I would had it over to the trash.

     

     

    Beo Time, A8, EarSet3i, EarSet2, BC2, BC6, BL3, BL11, Apple TV1, BEO Ballpen, BL2000, BL3500

    Christmas 2010 Prize Draw 1st winner. BeoSound 9000 Mk3 

    Thank you

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