Hi everyone, I'm thinking of buying a pair of Penta IIIs for my livingroom 7000 system. At present I'm using a pair of beovox M150s, but I'm not particuarly pleased with tha combination - the treble sounds worse now compared to when i bought them in 1997 (I guess the crossovers need a rehaul), and the bass response is strange (it's slow, maybe due to poor re-coning by the previous owner?).

What I _really_ want soundwise is as good sound as possible within my budget, but I've decided to keep the livingroom system 100% b&o (at least the visible components...) so there's not much to choose from. My preference in sound is neutral sound, whatever that means :-) I guess i'd appreciate the current single-digit beolab series much more than Pentas but my budget is quite tight, so Beolab 9 is unfortunately out of the question. I know that my choice. whatever it will be, is going to be a compromise but I'm still a bit confused since I haven't heard a pair of Pentas since 1989. :-)

My options are: 1) Beolab Penta III (approx €900) 2) Beovox MS150 (refurbished, approx €500) and a hidden 3rd-party external power-amp (I don't trust the bm7000) 3) Beolab1, but then I'd need to wait some more time since they still are quite expensive

What do you think, are Pentas a better choice than ms150 + an external amp? Is it worthing saving up for a Beloab 1? I'd really appreciate comments and opinions from you.

Thanks, Henrik

One for Peter, I think!

I have a Quad 405-2 driving my MS150s and I love their sound - deep (bit not over-exaggerated) bass & very flat frequency response (is that the same as a neutral sound??).  

Cheers

Nigel

I'm sure you would be happy with the Pentas, but remember that at this age they would also audibly benefit from a crossover overhaul (plenty of caps, so not cheap with better than average components!) and the midranges will be on the replacement/refoam list sooner or later as well.

Somebody once said that upgrading the Penta crossovers sounds like you took the speakers out of their packaging material... with my passive Pentas it wasn't nearly that dramatic, but definitely noticeable. I'm actually running them with a 6500 and I'm completely happy with that combination since I live in a flat, but of course the amp would run out of oomph at large volumes.

Thank you both for your input, it's much appreciated! Sounds like both alternatives are good. Anyone with experience of both, how do they compare?

I've read that some people find the Penta treble a bit muddy. Could this be a problem? I like how the treble in my M150s used to sound, but I'm not a big fan of the treble in the S45-2s that I have here in my bedroom/office since i find a bit gritty. Before my b&o-days, I had various 80's jbl speakers with their titanium tweeters and I liked how they sounded. I also like the treble in my Sennheiser HD 650s, but that's a different story. :-)

I have had both Pentas (still do) and MS150s and have used both with a BM7000. I like Pentas - they sound effortless and go very loud easily. The treble is not their strong point - it is less lively compared to say 8000s and certainly less that the ALT speakers, but part of this is the positioning of the tweeter half way up the speaker. They sound better when you sit down!

MS150s have better more accurate bass but shriek at high volumes - part of this will be the amp struggling I imagine. The better speaker per se will be the MS150s and for all but the highest volumes, the 7000 is perfectly capable of driving them.

Given the choice, which would I have - Pentas - smaller and effortless sound. I no longer have the MS150s - I do have M100s - but that is another story!

Which are my very favourite speakers? BBC LS3/5As and AB1 sub woofers! 1970s speakers which simply reproduce the human voice better than anything else I have heard bar Quad ESL63s. Useless low bass, and rolls off at the top end (so do my ears!). I like my Sennheisser HD600s as well!

Peter :

 

MS150s have better more accurate bass but shriek at high volumes - part of this will be the amp struggling I imagine. The better speaker per se will be the MS150s and for all but the highest volumes, the 7000 is perfectly capable of driving them.

 

shriek at high volumes?? Not with the Quad (2 X 100W) they don't! A Beomaster 8000 (2 x 150W) would be even better!

CHeers

Nigel

I find my BeoLab 5000s are very even and natural sounding, at least compared to the rest of my kit - JBL included! The 5000 is very clear and accurate - very easy and fun to listen to.

All of the aforementioned speakers have loads more bass than the 5000. On a nice solid wall with a more distant than average seating position, one can experience quite deep and very smooth bass from the 5000.

The BeoLab 5000 is definitely one to think about.

henrik:

I've read that some people find the Penta treble a bit muddy. Could this be a problem?

It'll definitely move to that direction when the caps age. Elsewhere on the forum, one of Die_Bogener's excellent workshops goes over the Penta crossovers. He describes a couple of small mods that will make them sound brighter. I went with all original component values, and I wouldn't call them muddy - unless you compare to some other speakers that are purposedly bright. A matter of taste of course.

I'm constantly happily surprised at how good the Pentas sound at low volumes, where many other speakers would have you cranking up the volume or engaging loudness. I believe it is the four smallish bass drivers instead of one big.

Thank you all for your input! It was interesting to read vour opinions on Penta vs MS150! I would like to buy a pair of MS150s some day to complete my beolab/system 8000, but like Peter says I think the Pentas will be nicer in my livingroom. I'm not worried anymore regarding the treble response of the Penta, thanks to you lot :-) ...but this has also made me more curious of the MS150s, but despite Peter's experiences I think I would like to use an external power amp (instead of the one in my bm7000), based on my experience with my current M150s (they sound quite a lot better when used with a bm8000). This could be due to the acoustics of my livingroom. I'll go for the Pentas ...this time :-)

Evan: Yes, I've recently realised that the 5000 sounds much better than I thought. They're not really practical in this particular situation (due to my livingroom arangement), but I'll definitely check them out as they would be ideal speakers for my summerhouse.

Mika: ah, thanks! I'll check die_bogeners thread! Also, nice to hear that you like how the Pentas performs at low sound level! That's important to me.

Once again, thank you!

h1npw:

Peter :

 

MS150s have better more accurate bass but shriek at high volumes - part of this will be the amp struggling I imagine. The better speaker per se will be the MS150s and for all but the highest volumes, the 7000 is perfectly capable of driving them.

 

shriek at high volumes?? Not with the Quad (2 X 100W) they don't! A Beomaster 8000 (2 x 150W) would be even better!

CHeers

Nigel

I think it is the tweeter in this range of speakers - all the range have a sharp top end at volume in my experience - interesting the comment about the S45-2s - I like their top end in comparison. Just shows that speakers are a very individual choice!

Peter :

interesting the comment about the S45-2s - I like their top end in comparison. Just shows that speakers are a very individual choice!

It could also be that my s45-2s need some TLC :-)

Mika,

 

How much would a Penta mk3 caps overhaul run me?

bayerische:

How much would a Penta mk3 caps overhaul run me?

I did mine in 2008 and I think the parts cost with Intertechnik MKT caps was around 100 euros total - but the source I used then seems to have upped the prices by more than 50%

Those caps are good, basic foil types which will last forever and possibly even sound slightly better than electrolytics. It's possible to spend all you want in all kinds of audiophile caps, but I personally don't believe I'd ever hear the difference to these.

Original style bipolar electrolytics will be much cheaper, but the same job is then ahead in another 15 years

Hi everone,

I went for the Pentas, I had a long listening session at the seller's place (using a Beosystem 7000, just as in my own system) and found them nicer than I expected!

Anyway, at home I realised how sensitive the Pentas are when it comes the placement. When placed at the same positions as my M150s, I get no low bass (no sub bass and no punch) but too much upper bass (or lower mid). There is also something strange happening in the most upper midrange - we-re not talking straight frequency response here :). Ok, let's try to toe them in a bit... That improved the upper bass problem, but I still don't get any lower bass, for example: the sub-bassline that comes in at 5:19 in Seal - Crazy (full length) is not audible at all. I don't want exaggerated bass, I just want to be able to hear everything that's in the recording :) If there is no bass, I don't want to hear (over-eq:ed) bass, but if threre is a bassline I want to hear it.

I guess this is a placement and room acoustics problem, so I'll have to experiment some until I hopefully find a solution. Part of the problem, however, is that I don't want to completely re-arrange my livingroom.

Another problem - specially compared to my old M150s - is that the soundstage is a lot different as soon as you move out of the sweetspot, but I can live with that. At the same time, it makes me really curious of the ALT-equipped speakers! :-)

Since I know how good these speakers actually can sound, I'm really going to give them a chance and hopefully I'll find a solution without having to change the room completely. If I don't succeed in doing so, I'll take a look at the Beolab 9.

Henrik,

If you are trying to coax more bass out of the Pentas, try putting them close to a wall, or a corner. This reduces non-forward radiation and increases reflected energy. The matter of a few inches can change the bass response notably.

Also try putting more distance between you and the speakers. Give those wavelengths room!

Evan,

Thanks for your advice, but I have already experimented with the distance to the walls, and when I move the speakers closer to wall I get too much of the upper bass (maybe 150-250 Hz) and still not much happening below 100 Hz. What I've found so far is that I get a flatter frequency response when I move the speakers from the wall, but I can't place them more than 50-60 cm from the wall since the walls are so close :-)

Your second suggestion is probably a very good one! :-) Unfortunately it's not possible, the distance from back wall to front wall is only 3.5-4.0 meters so there's not much to do, unless I re-arrange the whole room (meaning I could place the speakers along another wall, with a possible max distance of 7 m from me) which I really don't want to do. I'll definitely try it for a limited time though. Thanks for your advice, it's much appreciated!

You're quite welcome Henrik!

I use a pair of BeoVox Conas to supplement my Lab 5000s. I have been experimenting with them for a while now and the above are my findings.

I really would recomend trying to increase the distance, it makes a huge difference. The further the better really - in terms of bass at least.

Just a thought - by spreading the speakers apart, you would also be moving them even further away from the listening position (directly). Although it may be marginal, every little bit counts!

Please report back after you experiment with your space!

Hi,

I've experimented a bit more today, at present the Pentas are placed >60 cm from the wall, and the bass response is much flatter now - that mid-to-hi bass boost is almost gone, and the lower bass frequencies is better. Unfortunately, this placement is not an option in the long run, since it really messes up the whole room :P ..but yes, this confirms that is is a placement and room acoustics problem

My other main gripe with the Pentas is probably a more difficult problem: I'm not that 100 % satisified with the treble response. They sound a bit.. ...non-open? Especially, "f"-sounds sounds strange - they are a bit muted - but the higher "s"-sounds sound ok. The result is that many recordings (such as Grace Jones (or rather Trevor Horn...) fantastic "Slave to the rhythm", that I'm playing right now) just don't "open up". I knew that the Pentas are supposed to be a bit on the soft side when it comes to treble response, but I wasn't expecting it would be to this effect. Compared to the Pentas, my old M150s sound much more open and spatial. My Pentas are from 1999, so the crossovers should still be ok (...or?). i hope I'll learn to live with this, but so far I haven't really adjusted to this sound.

All in all, I'll keep experimenting with speaker placement but I'm worried about the treble characteristics. But still, also with the current non-optimal speaker placement I prefer them to my M150s, except when it comes to the treble response.

Very interesting to read Henrik.

The pentas are known to sound very relaxed. Im sure your audio master can compensate with a little treble boost. 

Those capacitors should have some life left in them, but I'm not an authority on capacitors. 

Hi again,

Some kind of follow-up: I was at a friend's place yesterday and noticed that his Pentas were quite a bit brighter than mine even though his treble setting was 0 and mine (on my bm7000) is +3. This made me curious, so when I got home I connected one of my pentas to my tv (with flat tone settings) and found that it sounded much brighter than the penta that was still connected to the audio system, so I guess my BM7000 isn't 100% ok.

I still have my Penta III speakers, and they sound great. I boost the treble just a small bit to make up for the fact that they do lack crisp highs.

I bought a cheap Beocenter 9500 just to be able to try with another pre-amp, and with the 9500 at neutral settings i get more treble and mids than I got with the BM7000 set at +3. So I guess my trusty old BM7000 needs a rehaul then... (no, the 9500 is not a permanent solution, I prefer to have a 7000 in this room).