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Untitled Page
ARCHIVED FORUM -- April 2007 to March 2012 READ ONLY FORUM
This is the first Archived Forum which was active between 17th April 2007 and
1st March February 2012
Latest post 03-22-2011 9:22 AM by Daniel. 29 replies.
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03-19-2011 7:22 PM
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ollie75
- Joined on 03-19-2011
- Posts 11
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Hi everyone
Just wondering if someone can help me. I currently have a pair of BL 8000's as mains hooked up to a BV7-40 with a BL2 attached. I'm looking to possibly upgrade to a pair of BL5's. The existing system sounds beautiful & i was wondering if there would be a significant difference in sound with the BL5's. I have a pair of BL 4000's as rear's.
Also could anyone see a problem in buying a pair of BL5's from 07 (ex demo from a dealer) as opposed to a new pair. Any software changes etc.....Quite a significant saving on the ex demo pair.
Thanks
Mark
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Toralfsen
- Joined on 02-17-2009
- Posts 85
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To your fisth question:
Try comparing this to:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_SmQk2jClOU4/TAbiIGQqkPI/AAAAAAAABgM/JdDKg-qUsdU/s1600/lada.jpg
http://static.cargurus.com/images/site/2008/06/05/07/50/2008_bentley_continental_gt-pic-41173.jpeg
And no, they are probably as good as new, buy demo, might be better sound then a pair of new ones!
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Mr10Percent
- Joined on 04-16-2007
- In Transit
- Posts 441
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The answer you are looking for is "night & day"!
There is no comparison between the two. The BL5 is superior in every aspect apart from not coming as a shiny aluminium object.
10
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bayerische
- Joined on 12-11-2007
- Helsinki, Finland
- Posts 3,593
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As 10 percent said, absolutely night and day, to Beolab 5's advantage.
-Andreas
BLab5, BLab5000, BLab8000, BV10, BS9000, BS3, Beo5, Beo4, BLink1000, BLink5000, BLink7000, A2, A8, Form2
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Electrified
- Joined on 10-05-2009
- Greater Copenhagen, Denmark
- Posts 404
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macjonny1:
Except the BL 8000s are much better looking. Of course that's an opinion...but BL5s belong on the set of Star Trek!
Seriously, both are pretty. Okay, granted, the BL5s looks more like "the bizz", but they look an awful lot better than "real" far-field studio monitors.
The 8000s and the 5's aren't really the same when it comes to the tech. The obvious one is the ALT lens, but it goes deeper than that. The 8000 is a"hybrid" design. It's not a true active. If you want deep bass and connect a subwoofer to it, the sub will be making use of a passive crossover, whereas the rest of the speaker units employ active crossovers.
I just did some reading up on the BL8000s, and it seems they "actively" bodged some things in it to make it function. Not to make it sound better and more accurate but band-aided it to a) give it more bottom at the cost of precision and in effect making it into a two-way speaker, and b) put some electronic circuit into it so it would last a bit longer.
So, although I really don't like "night-and-day" comments because they remind me audiophilics, the BL5s are in a completely different league in every aspect. There is not a single point where the BL8000 is comparable technically or audio wise. It is almost as clear cut as comparing a passive with an active design, a turntable with a cd, or a reel-to-reel to an uncompressed digital file.
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ollie75
- Joined on 03-19-2011
- Posts 11
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Thanks for everyone's comments. I've made up my mind that i will be purchasing them and can't wait. I was probably more concerned with the second part of my post in regards to ex demo's. Cheers again
I will keep you updated on the difference. :)
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Electrified
- Joined on 10-05-2009
- Greater Copenhagen, Denmark
- Posts 404
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ollie75:
Thanks for everyone's comments. I've made up my mind that i will be purchasing them and can't wait. I was probably more concerned with the second part of my post in regards to ex demo's. Cheers again
I will keep you updated on the difference. :)
No problem. I wouldn't worry about them being ex-demos at all. Money saved, and you know you won't receive a lemon.
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ollie75
- Joined on 03-19-2011
- Posts 11
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Hi Chicken
No i wont be attaching the BL2. I'm sure the bass would well and truely be enough. Can you use the BL2 on the rears? (BL4000's)
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stefan
- Joined on 04-16-2007
- 200 miles from Struer
- Posts 1,733
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ollie75:
Hi Chicken
No i wont be attaching the BL2. I'm sure the bass would well and truely be enough. Can you use the BL2 on the rears? (BL4000's)
Yes, you can add your BL2 to your BL4000s. Just connect the "surround" Powerlink to BL2 and BL2 PL out to BL4000 PL.
Now you have "3-way surround speakers". Works great in my main setup.
Stefan
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Jon
- Joined on 03-05-2009
- Posts 138
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Electrified:
The 8000 is a"hybrid" design. It's not a true active.
Electrified, would you mind clarifying what exactly you mean in saying the BL8000 isn't a true active speaker? It uses an electronic line-level X-over, fed into a single, two-channel power amplifier - one channel for the tweeter, and one for the woofers. I assume this is your point of contention - the two-channel amp? While not ideal, that wouldn't disqualify it from being an active speaker. It still has a dedicated, direct connected channel of amplification for each drive unit/set of drive units.
Electrified:
If you want deep bass and connect a subwoofer to it, the sub will be
making use of a passive crossover, whereas the rest of the speaker units
employ active crossovers.
Why wouldn't you be able to use an active subwoofer with BL8000's? I don't get it...
Electrified:
I just did some reading up on the BL8000s, and it seems they "actively"
bodged some things in it to make it function. Not to make it sound
better and more accurate but band-aided it to a) give it more bottom at
the cost of precision and in effect making it into a two-way speaker,
and b) put some electronic circuit into it so it would last a bit
longer.
Yes, they used to be a 2.5-way design. B&O later changed them to a simpler 2-way setup, wherein both midbass drivers shared the same operating passband. I don't know how much precision this cost the BL8000, but I'd say it likely contributed to increased lobing and comb-filtering effects.
Jon
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Electrified
- Joined on 10-05-2009
- Greater Copenhagen, Denmark
- Posts 404
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Jon:
Electrified:
The 8000 is a"hybrid" design. It's not a true active.
Electrified, would you mind clarifying what exactly you mean in saying the BL8000 isn't a true active speaker? It uses an electronic line-level X-over, fed into a single, two-channel power amplifier - one channel for the tweeter, and one for the woofers. I assume this is your point of contention - the two-channel amp? While not ideal, that wouldn't disqualify it from being an active speaker. It still has a dedicated, direct connected channel of amplification for each drive unit/set of drive units.
No, an amplifier per unit is indeed what's needed to make a proper active design.
But an active design has more to do with crossovers and the amped units is a necessity following the choice of an active crossover, in that the crossover happens before the amplification at line level.
However, it didn't have each unit amplified as is common, it started out with having two of the units (the bass) amplified by a single unit, utilising a passive crossover for that part.
This from another site (beocentral) - my bolding:
In the earlier models one of the woofers was connected to the bass
amplifier output via a simple passive filter so that it functioned as a
midrange driver. This made the early Beolab 8000 a 3-way design with an
unusual “hybrid passive-active” construction
When it comes to active subs, I need to differentiate between a powered one and an active. Although both will have amplifiers connected (lol), it's the crossover that dictates whether it will be an active or a passive design.
[...]those after No. 10145230, dispensed with the expensive crossover
components and had both woofers wired in parallel, making the new models
only a 2-way design. At the same time the electronic crossover filter
was redesigned to include “adaptive bass linearisation”, a system that
gave a bass lift at low listening levels. This was of course “loudness”
by another name, although the method of applying it involved a complex
electronic circuit that was sensitive to signal level rather than the
position of the volume control of the main system. Although these
changes increased the showroom impact of the Beolab 8000 at the point of
purchase they made it a blunter instrument and less satisfying for the
serious listener.
More here:
http://beocentral.com/beolab8000speaker
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Peter
- Joined on 02-12-2007
- Posts 9,572
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One could argue that the present design is fully active as the feed to the woofers is the same whereas the original was a hybrid. One could also argue that the earlier design was actually preferable in some ways but as few people can actually tell the difference, we are maybe discussing angels on pins.
In any case, the Beolab 5 is so superior as to make this conversation irrelevant! I wish I could justify spending that amount of speakers as they really are superb. But as I listen to so little these days, I will stick with what I have!
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Electrified
- Joined on 10-05-2009
- Greater Copenhagen, Denmark
- Posts 404
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Peter : One could argue that the present design is fully active as the feed to the woofers is the same whereas the original was a hybrid. One could also argue that the earlier design was actually preferable in some ways but as few people can actually tell the difference, we are maybe discussing angels on pins.
No we're not. The "fix" was to remove the passive crossover and completely nix the function of one of the units so it became more "booming" (i.e. less accurate) on the shop floor. As if passive crossovers weren't bad enough, let's "make up" for that by producing a booming speaker.
If those are angels on pins, I seriously can't see any reasons to even think about BL5s. Those things are crucial reasons to why the Beolab 5s are so good speakers.
For instance, whereas the BL5s attenuate the amplified signal, the BL8000s relies on attenuation of the "line level" signal. That alone makes it some bastardized hybrid design, reducing the signal/noise ratio at low levels.
[clarification: I mean that the signal for the 8000 is attenuated before everything, including the crossover, and the BL5s are attenuated after the crossover and after the preamplification, but before the power amps, if that makes sense]
Peter : In any case, the Beolab 5 is so superior as to make this conversation irrelevant! I wish I could justify spending that amount of speakers as they really are superb. But as I listen to so little these days, I will stick with what I have!
It's not a moot point. He has the BL8000s and by explaining its design shortcomings comparitively one can also tell why it is a better speaker, why the BL5s are superior in every conceivable way instead of relying on feelings or looks (same thing, but you get the idea).
Edit:
Anyway, I don't know if he has some early ones or a later edition. With
the information I have given and the things I've explained, it should be clear what's what, nothing less and nothing more. He can
take what he wants from it, if anything. If not, it's no skin off my
nose.
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Electrified
- Joined on 10-05-2009
- Greater Copenhagen, Denmark
- Posts 404
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Peter :
I do agree with you (I think!) I despise the inclusion of what is effectively an automatic loudness circuit in B&O speakers. I hate booming bass - I do understand that it makes the product more attractive in a showroom setting but I want a flat response and the ability to alter this to my taste.
It does seem a shame that B&O manage to initiate a standard which involves active amplication of their speakers and then hobble them to a certain extent. However I am sure they have worked out wjhat sells - so maybe it is not their fault - but ours!
I just think that at that time, they were finding their feet and wasn't quite confident with active design yet. Never underestimate incompetence, lol.
I cannot fault their BL9s or 5s at all (re audio quality and from a technical standpoint). They certainly have the tech down these days.
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KMA
- Joined on 08-13-2007
- Posts 101
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Electrified:
This from another site (beocentral) - my bolding:
In the earlier models one of the woofers was connected to the bass
amplifier output via a simple passive filter so that it functioned as a
midrange driver. This made the early Beolab 8000 a 3-way design with an
unusual “hybrid passive-active” construction
When it comes to active subs, I need to differentiate between a powered one and an active. Although both will have amplifiers connected (lol), it's the crossover that dictates whether it will be an active or a passive design.
[...]those after No. 10145230, dispensed with the expensive crossover
components and had both woofers wired in parallel, making the new models
only a 2-way design. At the same time the electronic crossover filter
was redesigned to include “adaptive bass linearisation”, a system that
gave a bass lift at low listening levels. This was of course “loudness”
by another name, although the method of applying it involved a complex
electronic circuit that was sensitive to signal level rather than the
position of the volume control of the main system. Although these
changes increased the showroom impact of the Beolab 8000 at the point of
purchase they made it a blunter instrument and less satisfying for the
serious listener.
So in effect, in terms of audio performance, B&O have downgraded the Beolab 8000 (8002) since their release? Was the change to 2-way done at the same time when B&O switched the amps to Ice-Power? I used to own these speakers back in the '90s, and have now been considering them again, as I need slim speakers as fronts in my setup. I really liked the sound back in the day... but this information (new to me) got me hesitating about choosing them today.
KMA
Current setup: BeoVision 10-46 (grey speaker cover, AR, motorized stand) with Apple TV 2 (FireCore), Sony BDP-S780, Mac Mini, BeoLab 11 (silver), Beo5, BeoSound 8 (red speaker covers). Accessories: A8 Earphones, wine bottle coasters.
B&O product history, in chronological order since 1990, after the onset of the treaded BeoVirus (I tend to upgrade/change my setup "infrequently"): BeoSystem 2500 (with blue speaker covers), BeoLink 5000, BeoSystem 7000 (complete; silver/black), BeoLink 7000, RedLine 60.2, BeoVox Penta, BeoVision MX4000 (black, motorized floor stand), BeoCord VX5000 (black), BeoSystem 4500 (complete), BeoCenter 9500, BeoLab 8000, BeoLab 6000, BeoVision Avant (original, 28" AR, VHS, green), BeoCenter 2300, BeoVision 3-32 (grey speaker frame, AR, motorised cabinet), DVD1 (grey), BeoCord V8000 (grey), Beo4, BeoSound Ouverture (w/ floor cabinet stand), BeoVision Avant RF (grey, 32", AR, VHS), BeoSound 9000, BeoCenter AV5 (blue), BeoVision 1 (yellow, motorized floor stand), Beo1, BeoSound Century (yellow), BeoCenter 1 (blue, AR, motorized floor stand), BeoSound 1 (silver, floor stand), BeoVision Avant RF DVD (grey, 32", AR), BeoVision 7-32 MkI (AR, motorized floor stand), BeoLab 3 (black), BeoSound 2, BeoVision 10-40 (grey speaker cover, AR, motorized stand).
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Electrified
- Joined on 10-05-2009
- Greater Copenhagen, Denmark
- Posts 404
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I don't know exactly when. There's a serial number somewhere in that link
Apparently, the 8002s are the ones with ICE amps, and they came to market in 2010 according to Beocentral.
Therefore it is a safe bet that the downgrade to two-way came long before the adaption of ICE amps, since the 8000s have been in production since 1992.
You say you "need" slim speakers, but the BL9s doesn't take up much more space than the 8000s, and I can't imagine a room where you could fit 8000s and not fit 9s.
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macjonny1
- Joined on 11-08-2009
- Posts 355
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BL8000 can be wall-mounted FYI, and are 15cm wide vs 40cm wide. That's a big difference, esp. multiplied 2. I can imagine it quite easily.
Electrified:
You say you "need" slim speakers, but the BL9s doesn't take up much more space than the 8000s, and I can't imagine a room where you could fit 8000s and not fit 9s.
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Electrified
- Joined on 10-05-2009
- Greater Copenhagen, Denmark
- Posts 404
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macjonny1: BL8000 can be wall-mounted FYI
LOL, just in case they aren't booming enough with uncontrollable bass
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macjonny1
- Joined on 11-08-2009
- Posts 355
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Well do keep in mind I will gladly trade mine for BL9s or BL5s!!!
My bass/crossover is managed by my receiver and sent to my B&W subwoofer, so all is fine with Bass control.
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