The WhatHifi review is re-printed in StuffTV magazine (a gadget review mag) with very minor changes.

Alex:

Steady on, not quite sure what I said to wind you up. "utter bollocks" is 1) mildly offensive and 2) a bit extreme IMHO.

Too bad. It's still utter bollocks.

Alex:

As it happens, there are measurable differences in the TS parameters between drivers pre and post burn in. Link Link. Now just how much this affects the real-world performance of the speaker is up for debate.

Yes, on one side we have the audiophilic group who claims that not only can they tell a difference, and that a burn-in time of a fortnight is necessary, but some of them also claim that people who had only listened to the speakers for a very short while can instantly tell a difference when they come to the house. You know, the sort of bollocks that has no attachment to reality.

On the other side, we have reality.

Alex:

Most of the tests I've seen orientate around sealed speaker enclosures, which will show less variation in performance than say, a sealed or transmission line box as the Fs of the driver changes. I also haven't yet seen a single test which measures a speaker's performance in the time domain, only with a solid sine-wave. Start passing time-dependant signals with variations in frequency and amplitude in similar tests, and I'd put money on a speaker's step response changing throughout the 'burn in period'.

Sure there will be a difference from the fitting of an unused unit to that of one having moved a bit. But your burn-in periods and whatnot remains nonsense.

You once again speak of timing. Are you sure you're not one of those people who thinks jitter is a real issue these days too?

Alex:

For everybody that says it's 'utter bollocks', there is somebody else who says it isn't, and data to back up both sides.

No, there's not data to back up both sides. Your argument is akin to claiming that there is data to backup both evolution and that of young earth creationists. It just doesn't work that way.

Alex:

Dynaudio for instance insist that all of their speakers should be allowed to burn-in before they perform correctly.

Noone I know who works professionaly with audio production have their speakers, their cables, their amps or anything "burn in". They play them a lot before putting them to use, but that is so they can get used to the particular shortfalls of that particular equipment.

Alex:

Even if you don't want to accept that it's a physical change in the speaker itself, then the argument that it's all down to the reviewer's ears is just as valid.

What? You're arguing that completely subjective notions is equally as valid as facts? You have got to be kidding me.

Alex:

We don't buy speakers because they measure properly, we buy them because of how we perceive their sound, and if we need a period of 'burn-in' to get used to the sound of the speaker, then let it be.

What a load of crock. I buy speakers because they measure properly, because when they measure properly, they are the most accurate. If not, I'd still be using valve amps, passive speakers, turntables and reel-to-reel recorders.

I don't use any of the above since I want the most accurate reproduction.

Alex:

If it really bothers you that some people might think there is such a thing as driver burn in, then just ignore it.

What a cop-out. Just because your subjective notions are countered is no reason for you to play a victim. You're posting those notions on a forum, not a blog, so expect to be countered if someone disagrees with you. To play the card, that I should ignore something that isn't true, merely because you don't want to be countered is ridiculous.

Electrified:

Alex:

Most of the tests I've seen orientate around sealed speaker enclosures, which will show less variation in performance than say, a sealed or transmission line box as the Fs of the driver changes. I also haven't yet seen a single test which measures a speaker's performance in the time domain, only with a solid sine-wave. Start passing time-dependant signals with variations in frequency and amplitude in similar tests, and I'd put money on a speaker's step response changing throughout the 'burn in period'.

You once again speak of timing. Are you sure you're not one of those people who thinks jitter is a real issue these days too?

Actually he isn't speaking of "timing" in the sense of the original review, but of time domain response rather than frequency domain or spectral response, which is a perfectly valid comment. A time domain plot to a step or impulse response is a valid test that will display the units damping amonst other things.

Alex,

Don't waste your breath. "Electrified" seems to know a fair bit - which, humorously enough, no one is arguing, despite the fact that his replies are always mega-defensive, even when there's nothing to defend. But on the occasion he is wrong, God himself could come down and let him know about it, and this guy would have the stupidity and audacity to argue with the Almighty.

Anyway, there were alot of audiophile garbage words thrown around in that review - just chalk it up to the author's ignorance. But yes, the T/S parameters of a driver do indeed change after the suspension has been well-flexed for awhile. Even he admits it:

Electrified:

Sure there will be a difference from the fitting of an unused unit to that of one having moved a bit. But your burn-in periods and whatnot remains nonsense.

Don't worry about it. It's him, not you. The bad attitude, I mean. Take care!

Jon

Jon:

Don't waste your breath. "Electrified" seems to know a fair bit - which, humorously enough, no one is arguing, despite the fact that his replies are always mega-defensive, even when there's nothing to defend. But on the occasion he is wrong, God himself could come down and let him know about it, and this guy would have the stupidity and audacity to argue with the Almighty.

Hmm.

I like to put together a real argument with premises and everything.  I think this must be the first time ever that I've been accused of being "defensive".  That's a novel idea.

Jon:

Anyway, there were alot of audiophile garbage words thrown around in that review - just chalk it up to the author's ignorance. But yes, the T/S parameters of a driver do indeed change after the suspension has been well-flexed for awhile. Even he admits it:

Electrified:

Sure there will be a difference from the fitting of an unused unit to that of one having moved a bit. But your burn-in periods and whatnot remains nonsense.

Yup.

But burn-ins of a fortnight or more and so obvious that people who have heard them just shortly can tell instantly when they hear them again? Nonsense.

Puncher:

Actually he isn't speaking of "timing" in the sense of the original review, but of time domain response rather than frequency domain or spectral response, which is a perfectly valid comment. A time domain plot to a step or impulse response is a valid test that will display the units damping amonst other things

I know. I wasn't either. I was reminded of it because of the comment. The rest of the comment is really not that relevant for his argument, though.

The "timing" in the review remains nonsensical.

Hi

For those of you that is interested, there is a review in a swedish magazine:

http://www.bildochljud.se/test/beosound-8

Unfortunately, it is in swedish. I suppose you could use some translator. Anyway, they liked it. A part from the good sound, they really liked the usb and the possibility to use it as a computer speaker. They thought that B&O should have been more clear about this matter.

B R

Clakke

I don't know where else to post this, but I hurried home from a long day at work to enjoy a few minutes with the Peter Marks thread. At first I was enchanted that the thread had grown to 6 pages, and then devastated to see that it had been locked and Mr. Marks banned. 

BeoWorld, and syntax, lost a shining star today.   

Jon:

Alex,

Don't waste your breath. "Electrified" seems to know a fair bit - which, humorously enough, no one is arguing, despite the fact that his replies are always mega-defensive, even when there's nothing to defend. But on the occasion he is wrong, God himself could come down and let him know about it, and this guy would have the stupidity and audacity to argue with the Almighty.

Anyway, there were alot of audiophile garbage words thrown around in that review - just chalk it up to the author's ignorance. But yes, the T/S parameters of a driver do indeed change after the suspension has been well-flexed for awhile. Even he admits it:

Electrified:

Sure there will be a difference from the fitting of an unused unit to that of one having moved a bit. But your burn-in periods and whatnot remains nonsense.

Don't worry about it. It's him, not you. The bad attitude, I mean. Take care!

Jon

Hang on, god is a fictitious character....

Jonathan:

Hang on, god is a fictitious character....

Well, since this is an electronics forum, this isn't the place to argue that.

Anyway, believe what you want; you certainly sound like your mind is made up anyway. But, you might regret that belief in the future, just to let you know...

Truly I wish you the best!

Jon

Wait, which god are we talking about? Zeus? Osiris? I can't remember which one is supposed to be real right now!

Anyways, I think we should start a petition to bring back Peter Marks and re-open his thread. That's something we can all believe in!

Jon:

Well, since this is an electronics forum, this isn't the place to argue that.

Digital=fictitious?

Oh, I get it, you were joking!

TripEnglish:

Anyways, I think we should start a petition to bring back Peter Marks and re-open his thread. That's something we can all believe in!

Although he was entertaining in the sense that we laughed at him, not with him, and although I am aggressive too, his behaviour was way over the top. I have received a lot of flak for my modus operandi (which I don't mind getting), but he was so much over the top and reacted so strongly calling people allsorts tom make his point (er, if he had had one).  He was abusive, and in dire need of help, not in need of getting bashed by people, even if he had it coming.

I think it was Lee who stated it had become more of a freak show than anything else, and although that sort of thing can be entertaining, I can't see the use of it here. 

It was also mentioned that if they allowed him to be (so) abusive, they couldn't well slam down on others, and that's a good point in my book too.

I'm not so sure what or who it would benefit for him to come back. Surely it wouldn't benefit him.

As for the Swedish review mentioning using the BS8 as computer speakers, I agree: That is certainly something B&O should have advertised more, or should begin advertising more.

Clakke:

Hi

For those of you that is interested, there is a review in a swedish magazine:

http://www.bildochljud.se/test/beosound-8

Unfortunately, it is in swedish. I suppose you could use some translator. Anyway, they liked it. A part from the good sound, they really liked the usb and the possibility to use it as a computer speaker. They thought that B&O should have been more clear about this matter.

B R

Clakke

They seemed to really like it!

I'm glad the HiFi press (even if they are sort of evangelistic) starts to take B&O seriously.