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  • 02-28-2011 7:34 AM

    • chartz
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    SP 14 noise trouble

     

     A nice person on this forum sent me an SP14 for testing purposes, as seen on the pictures.

    The problem is that there is a constant faint but audible "grating", "scraping" noise (both L and R), especially obvious on lead-in grooves and silent musical passages... which is a shame because the cartridge tracks very well. Even the end of side distortion seems absent! 

     

    I can't make a close-up of the tip, but there is a rondel and the tip (black in colour) is attached to this rondel.

    It does seem to excite the arm resonance, because it is the same frequency as the arm when you touch it.

    Any ideas?

    Edit: an o-ring around the cartridge body attenuates this noise strongly... Knackered stylus?

    Look at the amazing condition of this SP!

     

     

    Jacques

  • 02-28-2011 10:26 AM In reply to

    • chartz
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    Re: SP 14 noise trouble

    Could anybody confirm that this is a 78 rpm stylus please?

    Jacques

  • 03-01-2011 4:04 AM In reply to

    • chartz
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    Re: SP 14 noise trouble

     

    Hi, 

     

    Would this do?

    I mean, is it possible to replace the stylus assembly with this, by pulling out the old one from the cap? How?

    Thanks.

     

    Jacques

  • 03-02-2011 6:37 AM In reply to

    Re: SP 14 noise trouble

    I can't tell from the photo what sort of stylus it is.

    To replace the stylus, locate the domed, slotted screw underneath, loosen it by 1/2 turn, the stylus part pulls off.

    You can get a replacement stylus from here.

    The same stylus fits a SP 10, SP 10 A, SP 12, SP 12 A, SP 14 and SP 14 A.

    What type of arm is it on? Is VTA set correctly?

    Some useful information is available here.

     

  • 03-02-2011 8:05 AM In reply to

    • chartz
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    Re: SP 14 noise trouble

    Thanks for that. The cart sits on a Beogram 3000, VTA set somewhere between 1.5 and 2 grammes. I tried a little less but it doesn't make much of a difference. 

    I found a company in Surrey which can repair it for £65, which is about the same as Axel in Germany who will do it for €80. It's called Expert Stylus and Cartridge company. They don't have a website, but I read very positive comments on forums, like here.

    Anybody knows them?

    Jacques

  • 03-02-2011 8:19 AM In reply to

    Re: SP 14 noise trouble

    No problem.

    I was talking about Vertcal Tracking Angle not Tracking Force. The arm on the 1970'S Beogram 3000 should be fine.

    Don't know the company but the price sounds ok compared to other options.

    It should be a nice cartridge when you get it sorted.

  • 03-02-2011 2:58 PM In reply to

    Re: SP 14 noise trouble

    I see the link but the stylus will not fit an SP15 as this is an early version of the MMC4000 and the stylus is not replaceable.

  • 03-02-2011 4:04 PM In reply to

    • chartz
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    Re: SP 14 noise trouble

    Peter?

    Jacques

  • 03-02-2011 5:25 PM In reply to

    Re: SP 14 noise trouble

    Yes?

  • 03-02-2011 6:48 PM In reply to

    Re: SP 14 noise trouble

    Hi Jacques,

    If I may jump in here...

    My first guess at the cause would be dirty vinyl. A Disco-Antistat washer would sort that out and come in handy anyway. I prefer not to use their liquid, I filter the distilled water from the tumble dryer, add a few drops of washing up liquid and photographic wetting agent to the wash and then rinse in pure distilled water. Pat dry with kitchen roll and leave to air dry. NEVER use hard tap water.

    Second guess would be poor quality 1970's vinyl. The thin wobbly stuff. Not a lot to be done about that.

    Third and last guess would be that the cartridge shell isn't anchored tightly. The little screw that fixes it to the cartridge isn't up to much.

    I've had quite a few if these under the microscope - couldn't see any wear on any. I reckon the suspension will give out before the diamond is scrap. I'd be surprised and disappointed if this one needs a repair.

    That is not a 78 rpm stylus - they're altogether bigger.

    Replacing the stylus assembly can't be done without breaking things. The best you'll end up with is an empty shell with the plastic cowl glued back on. And some bits. If that is an SP6-7 stylus you've shown us then it will snap onto the cartridge body, and an empty shell will slide over and keep it in place. This is last chance nothing-to-lose stuff though - try very hard not to go there.

    Good luck,
    Steve

  • 03-03-2011 2:54 AM In reply to

    • chartz
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    Re: SP 14 noise trouble

     

    @Peter:

    You quoted the MMC4000... I thought you got the wrong post or something... Sorry!

     

    @Steve:

    You are welcome here of course. Dirty vinyl? Hey hey hey! You don't know who you're dealing with man Cool

    Anyway, the scraping noise really excites the arm+cartridge resonances badly. It is as tight a fit as can be (ie not very!) so I should really try another stylus. What worries me is that the tip tracks very well (difficult organ tutti, opera full choirs) so as you say it may not be too worn. Something wrong in the stylus assembly? I noticed two tiny copper discs which fell off when I pulled it. Also I saw that the suspension is really very rigid, the cantilever hardly bends. 

    Would someone be so kind as to lending me an SP 10/12/14 to try it on please?

    Thank you!

     

    Jacques

  • 03-03-2011 4:01 AM In reply to

    Re: SP 14 noise trouble

    chartz:

    @Peter:

    You quoted the MMC4000... I thought you got the wrong post or something... Sorry!

    The passage above states that the styluses can replace thouse in certain cartridges - one of those mentioned in the SP15. As you know, the SP15 was the original cartridge for the Beogram 4000 and is, to all intents, a MMC4000. This bit of information was therefore wrong and I didn't want it to be quoted in future.

  • 03-03-2011 4:44 AM In reply to

    Re: SP 14 noise trouble

    Doctor:

    chartz:

    @Peter:

    You quoted the MMC4000... I thought you got the wrong post or something... Sorry!

     

    The passage above states that the styluses can replace thouse in certain cartridges - one of those mentioned in the SP15. As you know, the SP15 was the original cartridge for the Beogram 4000 and is, to all intents, a MMC4000. This bit of information was therefore wrong and I didn't want it to be quoted in future.

     

    Peter,

    I have removed the reference to the SP15 from my previous post.

  • 03-03-2011 4:53 AM In reply to

    Re: SP 14 noise trouble

    My suspicion is that the suspension for the catilever has perished and collapsed. I think that you will need to have it refurbished.

  • 03-04-2011 4:05 AM In reply to

    • chartz
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    Re: SP 14 noise trouble

    Hi,

     

    So if the suspension is knackered, why is it so stiff? And why would this excite the body's resonances? The scraping noise sounds as if it came from a pipe! It makes me think of my old 78's played with a worn needle. 

    Jacques

  • 03-04-2011 7:04 PM In reply to

    Re: SP 14 noise trouble

    chartz:

     

    Hi,

     

    So if the suspension is knackered, why is it so stiff? And why would this excite the body's resonances? The scraping noise sounds as if it came from a pipe! It makes me think of my old 78's played with a worn needle. 

     

    Not really sure how the suspension works on these SP series cartridges so collapsed suspension is something of a presumptive diagnosis based on the symptoms you have described. There is usually some rubber involved in the suspension system that perishes over time. If there is no suspension working this may manifest itself as being stiff or too soft, depending on what has happenned to the rubber.

    - You have a scraping noise (some part of the cartridge or cantilever other than the stylus must be in contact with the record)

    - Some copper discs fell out when you removed the stylus assembly (this may be what is left of the suspension after the rubber has gone? I don't imagine that they were surplus to requirements and just floating around in there)

    - The body reasonace issue is no doubt related to the scraping noise. (something other than the stylus is in contact with the record or the catilever is in contact wit the cartridge body. Hard to know without seeing a closeup of the cartridge on the arm when playing a record).

  • 03-05-2011 2:44 AM In reply to

    • chartz
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    Re: SP 14 noise trouble

    Thanks.

    What I know for sure is that the cantilever doesn't foul anything while playing. I can also hear the scraping hollow noise if I stick my ear to the cartridge! The tiniest vinyl imperfections excite the cartridge body. I have inspected the outside under a slide magnifying glass but I can't see anything wrong... I'm going to make a recording so that you can hear for yourself!

    Jacques

  • 03-05-2011 3:22 AM In reply to

    • chartz
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    Re: SP 14 noise trouble

    scraping.m4a

    Don't pay attention to the beeps... bad laptopNo - thumbs down

    Jacques

  • 03-05-2011 4:42 AM In reply to

    Re: SP 14 noise trouble

    Jacques,

    I don't really know what to make of that to be honest.

    I assume that you don't have this problem when using another cartridge?

    It appears to have a rythym to it. This happens on all vinyl you play?

    Might be the suspension, might be something else.

    You have the turntable appropriately isolated?

  • 03-05-2011 4:56 AM In reply to

    • Step1
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    Re: SP 14 noise trouble

    Hi Jacques, sorry about the cart - seems to be causing a lot of grief and mystery! I am wondering if it is possible this noise is eminating from elsewhere? You either need another deck to test the cartridge on or another cartridge to test on this deck!

    Are there no old begrams on ebay atm? They tend to go for next to nothing over here in the UK, although not sure what they go for on your side of the channel...

    Olly.

  • 03-05-2011 4:58 AM In reply to

    • Step1
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    Re: SP 14 noise trouble

    Doctor:

    chartz:

    @Peter:

    You quoted the MMC4000... I thought you got the wrong post or something... Sorry!

    The passage above states that the styluses can replace thouse in certain cartridges - one of those mentioned in the SP15. As you know, the SP15 was the original cartridge for the Beogram 4000 and is, to all intents, a MMC4000. This bit of information was therefore wrong and I didn't want it to be quoted in future.

     

    I wonder if they ever planned to allow the stylus to be replaced in this line of carts? I think it would have been possible in a way similar to the SP range!

    Olly.

  • 03-05-2011 5:04 AM In reply to

    • chartz
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    Re: SP 14 noise trouble

    It only does that with this cartridge. My vinyl is in very good condition (the Mozart plays perfectly and silently on my other decks). The deck's suspension is fine, the Beocenter is on the floor, which is concrete!

    Yes it does it with every LP I tried, but then even with a sheet of rhodoid or rubbing a nail onto the tip! I re-inspected the innards but it looks okay in there. Usually when a stylus is worn, there is little treble and it just tracks badly. Not the case here!

    Jacques

  • 03-05-2011 5:12 AM In reply to

    • chartz
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    Re: SP 14 noise trouble

    Olly,

     

    That's fine really!

    It is more fascinating than anything else actually!

    I need to get this sorted... I have been following SP cartridges on the bay for some time but the prices they fetch are just silly! As for Beograms, well there are plenty... But no carts, or broken ones!

    Jacques

  • 03-05-2011 5:42 AM In reply to

    Re: SP 14 noise trouble

    chartz:

     

    It only does that with this cartridge. My vinyl is in very good condition (the Mozart plays perfectly and silently on my other decks). The deck's suspension is fine, the Beocenter is on the floor, which is concrete!

    Yes it does it with every LP I tried, but then even with a sheet of rhodoid or rubbing a nail onto the tip! I re-inspected the innards but it looks okay in there. Usually when a stylus is worn, there is little treble and it just tracks badly. Not the case here!

     

     

    Well it is obviously a cartridge issue. A replacement stylus, cartridge rebuild or another cartridge may be your only solution. These cartridges are quite old now and failure is common.

    I have found that it is cheaper to purchase a BeoGram with a decent cartridge than it is to purchase a cartridge alone. You might consider that route. The cartrdges are not often well descibed so ask questions and you might find a gem. 

  • 03-05-2011 6:23 AM In reply to

    Re: SP 14 noise trouble

    Step1:

    Doctor:

    chartz:

    @Peter:

    You quoted the MMC4000... I thought you got the wrong post or something... Sorry!

    The passage above states that the styluses can replace thouse in certain cartridges - one of those mentioned in the SP15. As you know, the SP15 was the original cartridge for the Beogram 4000 and is, to all intents, a MMC4000. This bit of information was therefore wrong and I didn't want it to be quoted in future.

     

    I wonder if they ever planned to allow the stylus to be replaced in this line of carts? I think it would have been possible in a way similar to the SP range!

    The cantilever assembly is part of the integrated cartridge so user replacement could never be a plan. They did however offer half price replacement when the stylus was worn - this offer didn't seem to last very long!! These days, Axel can replace the stylus very well!

     

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