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ARCHIVED FORUM -- April 2007 to March 2012
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This is the first Archived Forum which was active between 17th April 2007 and 1st March February 2012

 

Latest post 07-06-2007 4:40 PM by Hagen2000. 38 replies.
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  • 07-03-2007 3:19 AM

    Cables that make a difference

    OK. I remain among the world's great cable skeptics. But I'm also pleased that I just got a set of cables from Flashback Sales for my B&O classic amps. I'm using them between the DACs and the AUX-IN on a Beomaster 7000 and Beolab 5000.

    Excellent and fast service by Dave at Flashback (who should advertise here). He supplies Quad and NAIM owners with DIN-to-RCA cables. I thought I'd try them out and am quite pleased with the result. I'm hearing more detail, and more music. Some slight harshness I have been bothered by is gone.
    Still skeptical about benefits of ultra-expensive cables, but this improved things in a very pleasing way and didn't cost a fortune. (And I think the two possible sources of improvement are the quality of the connections at either end, as well as the fact that I'm not connecting an RCA cable to an RCA-to-DIN converter after this. Dave's cables help me get rid of the converter).

    http://www.flashbacksales.co.uk/acatalog/5_Pin_DIN___Phono_Cables.html

     

     

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  • 07-03-2007 3:40 AM In reply to

    Re: Cables that make a difference

    You can talk about quality of cables and they are important, but what really counts is impedance matching to the signal and even sharp bends in a cable can effect the impedance seen by the signal and therefore may degrade what you hear or watch. So, don't get me wrong quality cables are important, but routing and how you connect them are key to a good installation. Clearly, in todays digital world things have become much easier when it comes to concerns over impedance, but cable routing remains important installation issue which needs planning.

    Generally speaking the higher quality cables tend to be thicker, but this extra size also creates new problems with installation assuming you want a tidy installation without wires trailing everywhere.

    Regards Keith....

  • 07-03-2007 4:26 AM In reply to

    Re: Cables that make a difference

    I totally agree, Keith. Flashback's cables seem designed with this in mind. My previous cables were thin, and I had an unnecessary connection from RCA to RCA-DIN converting cable. Very flimsy connectors at the RCA ends and ditto at the DIN plug.
    As you say, adding to the impedance.

    The new cables are thick, the connections are solid and stick to the DAC/Amp connectors like a Piranha. And the price is very nice, just over GBP20 per cable, which is probably my upper limit before cable voodoo kicks in.

  • 07-03-2007 4:35 AM In reply to

    • Beolab
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    Re: Cables that make a difference

    Why doesn´t he sell just DIN to DIN cables???

    BL8000 MkII Black

  • 07-03-2007 5:03 AM In reply to

    Re: Cables that make a difference

    He has all kinds.
    But my DACs and stand-alone CD-players don't have DIN-OUT connectors. The DACs have RCA out analog as well as balanced XLR. Same for the CD-players.
    This cable does the job excellently for me.

    Here are his various types:

    http://www.flashbacksales.co.uk/acatalog/cables.html 

  • 07-03-2007 6:02 AM In reply to

    • Puncher
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    Re: Cables that make a difference

    Not wanting to kick of yet another cable debate (but it will be the first on the new site!Laughing) -

    I would say there are a few basics to bear in mind with interconnects which, if properly addressed, will ensure good signal transmission without blindly wandering down the silly "audiophile" cable road.

    Firstly, always use good quality connectors. They needn't be gold plated or irradiated with Strontium or whatever - just solidly built with a good smooth "feel" when connecting and a reasonable withdrawal force - names like Neutrik spring to mind.

    Cable size is pretty much as you would imagine - nice and chunky between amplifers and speakers while at line level or below the conductor section is almost irrelevant from a signal point of view and the limit is more likely a mechanical strength/handleability issue. You will read all sorts of stuff regarding the actual conductor material and its purity, stranded or unstranded, unidirectional or not - a lot of what you will read will be just plain wrong, some will have a tenuous link to some real engineering phenomena and some will be factual. A lot of "cable science" is true at frequencies way above the audio spectrum and some use this to claim benefits in their particular wares. Suffice to say that it wasn't that many years ago that the audiophile press preached to the great and good to use normal, solid strand, heavy duty domestic twin and earth cable between amplifier and speakers. In the intervening years the performance of this cable has not deteriorated, merely "fashion" has changed (along with the introduction of pyramids and crystals).

    Much more important is good quality screening (of individual signals if possible) for low level signals (line level and below). This will prevent interference from outside the cable and also crosstalk from within. It will be especially important with higher impedance sources (e.g. phono output without preamp) as these are particularly susceptible to noise pick-up (in the same way as guitar leads/pick ups can pick up local taxi radios etc).

    To summarise, using common sense and an eye for quality I believe it is easily possible to buy good, high quality cables at reasonable prices that would, I would argue, be inseperable from one costing hundreds of pounds in a well contstructed listening test.

    Generally speaking, you aren't learning much if your lips are moving.

  • 07-03-2007 7:09 AM In reply to

    Re: Cables that make a difference

    Cable debate!! Do a double blind A/B/X and then come back!

    As said before, the one difference I have noticed is buying Scart leads with the special clips so they don't fall out.

  • 07-03-2007 7:14 AM In reply to

    Re: Cables that make a difference

    Not much of a debate. Seems we're all in agreement. High quality connectors, thicker cable, shielding and you reduce potential noise.

    (And I can actually pick out these new cables from another room, compared to my older ones). Devil 


  • 07-03-2007 7:31 AM In reply to

    • Reox
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    Re: Cables that make a difference

    I had an extraordinary conversation with a very nice high end audio salesman
    a year or so ago. It's a world in which I've never really ventured before.
    I couldn't believe the emphasis placed on things like energy supply
    purification and cables, amongst other things.

    He was talking about cables using the same language a wine connoisseur  
    might use to talk about wine. The relative 'brightness', 'warmth' and
    'smoothness' of one cable over another.

    To be honest I felt at the time that I could tell the difference between
    two cables he demonstrated but it was marginal and I couldn't emphatically
    state one was better than the other. Just different.

  • 07-03-2007 7:34 AM In reply to

    • Puncher
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    Re: Cables that make a difference

    Addendum -

     In my earlier post I forgot to mention mains cords -

    I do find that a reasonable mains cord brings my system to life whereas, without, it just seems lifeless.Wink

    Generally speaking, you aren't learning much if your lips are moving.

  • 07-03-2007 8:07 AM In reply to

    • Alex
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    Re: Cables that make a difference

    Quite a while ago I bought £30 a metre Chord speaker cable, and it did definitely make a difference, even though it was very very small. However, I'm less persuaded by interconnects, and IMO, no matter what cable you're talking about, the money is better spent on a good CD or DVD!

     Weekly top artists:                   

  • 07-03-2007 8:13 AM In reply to

    Re: Cables that make a difference

    I believe that David Moulton's partners did a double blind trial of power leads. If I remember correctly a good selection of individuals were chosen to attend the test, including some described as having Golden ears! The result of the test was that no-one was better than chance at distinguishing power cables. These ranged from kettle leads up!

    Interconnects between products, as long as they are of reasonable quality with decent connections, should in my view exhibit similar effects.

    Speaker wire will be different if long runs are envisaged so the secret here is to ensure short runs - as B&O do with active speakers.

    The one interconnect that does matter a lot is that between a non RIAA equipped record player and the amplifier. This has to be shielded and of a relatively short run as the level of the signal is very small. This was one reason for the later Beograms having the RIAA installed in the Beogram as it allowed more flexibility with placement.

    I would strongly suggest anyone able to distinguish power cables to apply to the James Randi Foundation as you may win $1,000,000. You will need to be able to do this in test conditions though you yourself can help determine the test scenario.

  • 07-03-2007 8:43 AM In reply to

    Re: Cables that make a difference

    Peter:

    I believe that David Moulton's partners did a double blind trial of power leads. If I remember correctly a good selection of individuals were chosen to attend the test, including some described as having Golden ears! The result of the test was that no-one was better than chance at distinguishing power cables. These ranged from kettle leads up!

    Interconnects between products, as long as they are of reasonable quality with decent connections, should in my view exhibit similar effects.

    Speaker wire will be different if long runs are envisaged so the secret here is to ensure short runs - as B&O do with active speakers.

    The one interconnect that does matter a lot is that between a non RIAA equipped record player and the amplifier. This has to be shielded and of a relatively short run as the level of the signal is very small. This was one reason for the later Beograms having the RIAA installed in the Beogram as it allowed more flexibility with placement.

    I would strongly suggest anyone able to distinguish power cables to apply to the James Randi Foundation as you may win $1,000,000. You will need to be able to do this in test conditions though you yourself can help determine the test scenario.

    I've always wondered about the "cleaning the power" cult. One person I know does his "critical" listening at night, when the demand on the power network is less and the "current is cleaner." Ahem ...

    Cables can have properties - whether these are better or worse is up to your ears and what you want. You can get brittle, smooth, harsh, warm, rounded sound.
    I would never spend thousands of pounds or hundreds on cables. But spending just over twenty pounds to get the improvement I got now makes sense, chiefly because I know why. Solid workmanship, hand soldering, excellent casting of connectors and well shielded cable - I can hear a difference, not an enormous one, but to my ears it improved my music listening pleasure at the cost of a Criterion DVD.

    At any rate, the point of the post was that if anyone is looking for good quality inexpensive cables for their classic B&O, then Flashback Sales is a nice source.

    Here's the test Peter refers to: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/feature-article-blind-test-power-cords-12-2004.html

     

  • 07-03-2007 8:48 AM In reply to

    • Alex
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    Re: Cables that make a difference

    Actually I can testify that mains conditioners do make a difference. Something's funky with the power supply in our house, meaning even after being earthed, turntables still tend to hum very slightly (not as bad as when not earthed). Happens on my dad's system (completely different part of the house) and mine, so it's not to do with any faults in the actual sockets. I bought a multi-socket mains conditioner (about £50), and since then, it's been fine, no hum at all...

     Weekly top artists:                   

  • 07-03-2007 8:52 AM In reply to

    • Puncher
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    Re: Cables that make a difference

    Alex:

    Actually I can testify that mains conditioners do make a difference. Something's funky with the power supply in our house, meaning even after being earthed, turntables still tend to hum very slightly (not as bad as when not earthed). Happens on my dad's system (completely different part of the house) and mine, so it's not to do with any faults in the actual sockets. I bought a multi-socket mains conditioner (about £50), and since then, it's been fine, no hum at all...

    Are you sure its not just because the conditioner has interupted a ground loop between your various components?? (and shouldn't you be at school rather than instigating arguments here !!!)Laughing

    Generally speaking, you aren't learning much if your lips are moving.

  • 07-03-2007 8:54 AM In reply to

    Re: Cables that make a difference

    Alex:

    Actually I can testify that mains conditioners do make a difference. Something's funky with the power supply in our house, meaning even after being earthed, turntables still tend to hum very slightly (not as bad as when not earthed). Happens on my dad's system (completely different part of the house) and mine, so it's not to do with any faults in the actual sockets. I bought a multi-socket mains conditioner (about £50), and since then, it's been fine, no hum at all...

    And £50 is a fair price to pay - as compared to the Cardas Golden Reference power chord (just the chord, mind you) which starts at USD550!)
    I think Puncher is right though, you probably did stop a ground loop. I floated the grounds connector on the Benchmark DAC, and that did the same.

    I do have a dedicated 16amp circuit that only supplies my AV, running straight from my fusebox, just for stability, to avoid having any other appliances, etc., kicking in. 

  • 07-03-2007 9:08 AM In reply to

    • Alex
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    Re: Cables that make a difference

    Puncher:

    Are you sure its not just because the conditioner has interupted a ground loop between your various components?? (and shouldn't you be at school rather than instigating arguments here !!!)Laughing

    That is entirely possible, but it worked nonetheless! Laughing Not only that, but we often get rubbish power supply in my area (terrible flickering lights), and my HDR used to misbehave terribly whenever it happened. Since I got the mains conditioner, it's worked fine, obviously because the conditioner is retaining a small amount of power and utilising that when the power drops below a certain level.

    And no school's out, although I'm in to school tomorrow to do an acoustic recording. Not much else to do at the moment, as most of my friends go to state school rather than private schooling, and hence are not out of school yet. Sad

     Weekly top artists:                   

  • 07-03-2007 9:31 AM In reply to

    • ChrDH
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    Re: Cables that make a difference

    soundproof:

    OK. I remain among the world's great cable skeptics. But I'm also pleased that I just got a set of cables from Flashback Sales for my B&O classic amps. I'm using them between the DACs and the AUX-IN on a Beomaster 7000 and Beolab 5000.

    Excellent and fast service by Dave at Flashback (who should advertise here). He supplies Quad and NAIM owners with DIN-to-RCA cables. I thought I'd try them out and am quite pleased with the result. I'm hearing more detail, and more music. Some slight harshness I have been bothered by is gone.
    Still skeptical about benefits of ultra-expensive cables, but this improved things in a very pleasing way and didn't cost a fortune. (And I think the two possible sources of improvement are the quality of the connections at either end, as well as the fact that I'm not connecting an RCA cable to an RCA-to-DIN converter after this. Dave's cables help me get rid of the converter).

    http://www.flashbacksales.co.uk/acatalog/5_Pin_DIN___Phono_Cables.html

     

     

    Looks interesting! Which one of the cables would I be needing to connect my Ouverture (Powerlink) to my Rega amp (RCA), bearing in mind that using a normal Din-RCA converter I have to use the 'Line In' cords on the Rca part to get the sound from the Powerlink? (The 'line in' pins on a Din connector is the 'line out' pins in a Powerlink cable).

    best regards

    Chr.

    Beosound Ouverture, Beocenter 9000, Beovision MX6000, Beocord VX7000
  • 07-03-2007 2:52 PM In reply to

    • Craig
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    Re: Cables that make a difference

    Well I thought this was going to be another cable debate, shame.Laughing Just to remind you what some people will pay for cables a little link.

    CABLE LINK 

     

    Scroll down to the bottom and check out the Burn In Service. Absolut madness IMO.

     

    CraigBig Smile
     

    For millions of years, mankind lived just like the animals. Then something happened which unleashed the power of our imagination. We learned to talk and we learned to listen..

  • 07-03-2007 3:35 PM In reply to

    Re: Cables that make a difference

    Can I interest you in some Prime - no, not real estate - but cables ...

    Yes, going now to the lucky buyer! 14.500 US greenbacks will buy you a 1 meter, not square, stretch of cable. Yes, indeedy! And we'll throw in another meter for free!

    http://www.audiofederation.com/dealership/prices/jormadesign/index.htm 

  • 07-03-2007 3:42 PM In reply to

    • Alex
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    Re: Cables that make a difference

    I wonder what an insurance company would say when you phoned up telling them your ten thousand pound 2 metre cables have been stolen? Like they'd believe you...

     Weekly top artists:                   

  • 07-03-2007 3:58 PM In reply to

    • Craig
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    Re: Cables that make a difference

    Alex:

    I wonder what an insurance company would say when you phoned up telling them your ten thousand pound 2 metre cables have been stolen? Like they'd believe you...

     

    Something like. Let me pass you on to our fraudulent claims department sir.LaughingLaughingLaughing

     

    CraigBig Smile 

    For millions of years, mankind lived just like the animals. Then something happened which unleashed the power of our imagination. We learned to talk and we learned to listen..

  • 07-03-2007 6:00 PM In reply to

    • Jandyt
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    Re: Cables that make a difference

    What makes me laugh is that some people will buy these JUST because they're the dearest they can find!

    Andy T.

    Poor me, never win owt!

  • 07-03-2007 10:06 PM In reply to

    • Dave
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    Re: Cables that make a difference

    Puncher:

    Addendum -

     In my earlier post I forgot to mention mains cords -

    I do find that a reasonable mains cord brings my system to life whereas, without, it just seems lifeless.Wink


    Maybe... just maybe, it's all an illusion 

    “Quality is never an accident; it is always the result of intelligent effort.”

    Your health and well-being comes first and fore-most.

     

     

  • 07-04-2007 3:02 AM In reply to

    • Puncher
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    Re: Cables that make a difference

    philipsmz333:
    Puncher:

    Addendum -

     In my earlier post I forgot to mention mains cords -

    I do find that a reasonable mains cord brings my system to life whereas, without, it just seems lifeless.Wink


    Maybe... just maybe, it's all an illusion 

    I can see I didn't stick my tongue far enough into my cheekConfused - its definitely not an illusion, without a mains cord my system is entirely lifeless!Laughing

    Generally speaking, you aren't learning much if your lips are moving.

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