Michael Hoogkamer:

j0hnbarker:

What if buyers decide that a premium product should be made in Denmark, and vote with their feet?

Then they would buy a BS4? and not an entry level product?  Should it be the more you pay, the 'premium' products are made in DK/EU?  Otherwise if BS8 was made in DK/EU at a similar price point, the 'value' of other systems would be questioned. 

I think the smart thing is to produce the products where the needed capabilities are located. If nothing about B&O screams for Danish manufacturing, then so be it. I think the aluminum technology and the Scandinavian dedication to environmental practices is properly placed. But assembly? Can you believe B&O use a British designer? German IT framework?

Dude1:

Utter garbage.

If this is so, then Bang & Olufsen of Denmark might as well pack up and forget about bothering at all. Cheers to B&O of China - thats a product to aspire to! Assembled right alongside Toshibas!!

There are a great variety of cheeses made in Denmark, but I don't think I've ever found any in a B&O box.

Just because Toshiba manufactures in Denmark doesn't mean B&O shouldn't. They'll be made in completely different factories, probably in completely different areas, under completely different conditions.

The only thing which changes from one country to another is the regulations restricting industry (just look at most EU countries at the moment to see what damage this is doing) and the attitudes of the workers/cost of living...

Dude1:

The manufacture of anything in Europe is expensive. Hence, the price. The reality is many people are willing to pay extra for quality. I dread the day Bugatti, for example is made in Asia! It sounds like some of the members don't mind buying items manufactured in China - plenty of stores offer these...I can think of quite a few brands right now.

Willing to pay how much extra? The REAL cost of a BeoVision 7, BeoSound 4, BeoLab 8000, BeoLab 2, BeoSound 8, BeoVision 10 etc... would all be MUCH higher if B&O wanted to survive whilst making products in Denmark, where the quality is really no better.

If there was hand-crafted woodwork involved, then I'd be saying differently, but the wooden products have long gone!

 

And I really don't think most customers do care where it's manufactured, so long as the quality is good. In fact, while I worked for B&O, most people didn't seem to batter an eyelid upon being told that it was all 'hand-made in Denmark'.

£900. Made in China. Outsourced. Sounds pretty poor. Kind of sounds like a FAKE B&O to me like those Louis Vuiiton bags that the ladies in the office bring back from their business trips to China for £20 instead of £900!

Oh dear, who would be a fool to buy this BS8? Do you really think it will introduce the brand to and new generation and make them buy into the rest of the range? Hardly! BMW have successfully done this with MINI but this BS8 is more LADA than MINI.

Wrong direction B&O   Idiots!

Beolab1:

 

After reading the reports of the mounting number of workers that killed themselves in the Chinese Apple Iphone factory, due to terrible working conditions and insane working hours, I have become very critical about high-end brands that move to China for their production. The only reason is cheaper labour, thus higher profits.

 

Oh hell, that really makes me think, and i do not support that at all if that business strategy is what makes a company world-conqueringly successful from it!!
We don't live in a perfect world do we :(

Paul Winn:

£900. Made in China. Outsourced. Sounds pretty poor. Kind of sounds like a FAKE B&O to me like those Louis Vuiiton bags that the ladies in the office bring back from their business trips to China for £20 instead of £900!

Oh dear, who would be a fool to buy this BS8? Do you really think it will introduce the brand to and new generation and make them buy into the rest of the range? Hardly! BMW have successfully done this with MINI but this BS8 is more LADA than MINI.

Wrong direction B&O   Idiots!

Paul, your point of view is stunningly unsophisticated. It's not only detached from the reality of modern production, but also extremely insulting to a part of the world in rapid ascendancy and whose skill in technical production is blossoming at an unprecedented rate. Technology has allowed the developing world to leap and glide where western society slithered on its belly. Many of the most innovative companies rely on manufacturing in China to bring their products to the world market and there's few quicker ways to dispose of your credibility than betting against companies who do business there. 

I think what Paul's point is that a part of the allure of the brand is its' difference of being made in Denmark, especially first time buyers.  It's a romantic notion and a good point, but probably not feasible for the company.  Does this put buyers off?  No.  Do customers go in to a B&O store and ask where is this made?  Probably not.  Most people probably say 'what do the Danes know about circuitry".  Most people go in to a B&O store to match a product to the way they want to live and use technology. 

Companies like Philip Morris grow their tabacco in Australia and  send it to China for processing.  Car companies do it too, they are just a mixture of components from 3rd party manufacturers wrapped in a brand and bought to the market. 

I personally don't mind where the BS8 is manufactured as it is made to the company specification.  They have a lot riding on their brand, I don't think they would have taken the decision lightly.

TripEnglish:

Paul Winn:

£900. Made in China. Outsourced. Sounds pretty poor. Kind of sounds like a FAKE B&O to me like those Louis Vuiiton bags that the ladies in the office bring back from their business trips to China for £20 instead of £900!

Oh dear, who would be a fool to buy this BS8? Do you really think it will introduce the brand to and new generation and make them buy into the rest of the range? Hardly! BMW have successfully done this with MINI but this BS8 is more LADA than MINI.

Wrong direction B&O   Idiots!

Paul, your point of view is stunningly unsophisticated. It's not only detached from the reality of modern production, but also extremely insulting to a part of the world in rapid ascendancy and whose skill in technical production is blossoming at an unprecedented rate. Technology has allowed the developing world to leap and glide where western society slithered on its belly. Many of the most innovative companies rely on manufacturing in China to bring their products to the world market and there's few quicker ways to dispose of your credibility than betting against companies who do business there. 

Well put, Trip. The meek shall inherit the Earth. It is 2010 and they have. More later.

Apple is a good model for this. Designed in California by Apple, Made in China has made no measurable difference in consumer decision making and allowed a company to innovate at a staggering pace. Whoever mentioned Struer becoming just an "Idealand" is on to something. 

TripEnglish:

Paul Winn:

£900. Made in China. Outsourced. Sounds pretty poor. Kind of sounds like a FAKE B&O to me like those Louis Vuiiton bags that the ladies in the office bring back from their business trips to China for £20 instead of £900!

Oh dear, who would be a fool to buy this BS8? Do you really think it will introduce the brand to and new generation and make them buy into the rest of the range? Hardly! BMW have successfully done this with MINI but this BS8 is more LADA than MINI.

Wrong direction B&O   Idiots!

Paul, your point of view is stunningly unsophisticated. It's not only detached from the reality of modern production, but also extremely insulting to a part of the world in rapid ascendancy and whose skill in technical production is blossoming at an unprecedented rate. Technology has allowed the developing world to leap and glide where western society slithered on its belly. Many of the most innovative companies rely on manufacturing in China to bring their products to the world market and there's few quicker ways to dispose of your credibility than betting against companies who do business there. 

 

I'd have to agree.  I really like B&O for it's Danish/Bauhaus design and for the depth of R&D into it's sound and vision philosophy.  

Romantic notions, or if I may dare say it, more seemingly snob notions of it being 'made in Denmark', that somehow confers upon B&O a more 'desirable' or 'better quality' image, are erroneous at best in my view, if we are talking facts and not perceptions as regards mass produced products using modern state of the art factory assembly methods.

There is little doubt that when it comes to state of the art factories/manufacturing facilities, the Chinese and Japanese lead the world, not Europe, and it has been that way for many years.  That European companies buy in OEM parts to assemble in their products, is not just because Asian parts are cheaper, so much as they are cheaper AND almost always the best quality available.

What is true is that the product budget will determine just what can be achieved in terms of build quality/finish etc; if needed Chinese factories can turn out products that will equal or better the best available anywhere without any trouble whatsoever.

I have some Sony ES products, all Japanese made, and from the perceived finish and build, there is little that I have seen from the likes of European companies such as Lowe, Grundig, Metz etc, and even some products from B&O, that can touch them in that regard.

Provided I can buy Danish design, with build, finish and technology equivalent to state of the art Japanese products, mass produced on state of the art assembly lines in China to achieve realistic product pricing, I would be well happy to buy, as I know that the factory/plant/quality control is likely to be better in Japanese/Chinese factories than it is in old world European ones.

Just a perspective from someone living in the Oceanic region.

Best Regards

 

John....  

 

Paul Winn:

£900. Made in China. Outsourced. Sounds pretty poor. Kind of sounds like a FAKE B&O to me like those Louis Vuiiton bags that the ladies in the office bring back from their business trips to China for £20 instead of £900!

Oh dear, who would be a fool to buy this BS8? Do you really think it will introduce the brand to and new generation and make them buy into the rest of the range? Hardly! BMW have successfully done this with MINI but this BS8 is more LADA than MINI.

Wrong direction B&O   Idiots!

You're insulting hell of a lot of people at the moment. The BeoSound 8 is selling like hotcakes, and there are a large number of people on this forum who have bought one.

Think about what you write before you come out with something so snobby as "who would be a fool to buy this BS8?"

The day B&O Denmark simply becomes a Idea outpost - and an expensive one at that is the day a great many people walk straight past 'the old shop' and carry on to cheaper alternatives.

A great many people, including many of my friends buy B&O not to be brand snobs, but who appreciate a little of the 'old world engineering' that has gone by-the-by over the past decade. I have had a lively debate with many of my friends about the reasons for their purchase of B&O and many have simply admired a small company producing easily used products, with fantastic qualities including great design that can stand the test of time. Many of my friends can't be bothered with updating an LCD every couple of years because something else looks a little better and prefer to stick with the same product for many years at a time.

I think the notion of having a stand-alone Danish made brand is not 'idealistic'. For many years Bang & Olufsen was cutting edge. It's products were worth paying extra for and many people did. The Avant for example was just such a product. The greatest issue for Bang & Olufsen presently is attracting people to purchase the products - not trying to have them manufactured cheaply by 'god only knows who' in China. B&O used to do this by having products (not a couple of products, as the case now appears to be) that people would walk over hot coals to get. Now the products lack the differentiation from many Asian peers have. Being manufactured in DK is another differentiating factor, not just 'Oh yeah, take a look at my expensive B&O product - it was conceived in DK you know...'

Frankly, I'm suprised at the lack of care that people have about the product and its brand heritage. It sounds like instead of people wanting the brand to be the little innovative and quality Danish brand, that they prefer something with a badge and heck, as long as it looks ok. This is the very reason pirated goods the world over thrive. People want the looks without having to work for the product. If this is the case, luxury brands are all destined to the grave - no one will aspire to work for the craftmanship and quality if something can be knocked up cheap somewhere but it looks the part!

Certainly the day I wander into a B&O store and the salesperson tells me 'Oh we are now a subsidiary of Samsung' or 'all products are now made in our factory in Taiwan' is the day I walk to Currys and buy something, because at least I know that I no longer give a stuff wherever or whatever I buy beacuse I know its all cheap for a reason.

 

@Dude1, Interesting points. I took a different look this morning at what you have been saying the last couple of days, and now think I get it. Thanks for the wake up call and my trip down memory lane. When I worked in a textile plant on night shift, I sometimes stopped at the Mercedes dealer on my way home. In '74, fell in love with the 450 SLC, but could not imagine anyone paying $25k for a car, when I was making $3 per hour. One day I worked late and actually got to talk to a sales guy who said something very interesting. After I suggested that people who bought MBs probably just wrote a check and walked away, he corrected me by saying that his customers worked hard for their money and you had to show them that what you were selling was worth it. And while I have owned a number of MBs, used and new, the best is an old SL in the garage with materials and sturdiness that is unmatched today. I don't think people have changed that much, but the world certainly has.

At the end of the day, I hope B&O lives its stated values while running a successful corporation. Heck, I need it to. And I hope that the customer list will always include the kid or family who cannot afford what's on the top shelf, but who will always be welcomed in the store, and possibly pointed to something that performs, is affordable, and exhibits the DNA we all appreciate. What it won't be, is the B&O of our youth.

In Mercedes terms, the A-Class and C-Class have proper family alignment to the SLS. For me, the BeoSound 8 does have B&O values. As long as we don't pretend the 8 is the 5, I think everything will be OK.

Thanks guys. The last couple of posts summed up my "more later" comment!

I find myself perched right on the razor's edge w/ regards to the BS8 and all that has been said.

@Beoboiinoz: One side of the razor, I agree.

@Dude1: The other side, I agree.

@symmes: Right in the middle -I couldn't have said it better.

Dude1:

The day B&O Denmark simply becomes a Idea outpost - and an expensive one at that is the day a great many people walk straight past 'the old shop' and carry on to cheaper alternatives.

A great many people, including many of my friends buy B&O not to be brand snobs, but who appreciate a little of the 'old world engineering' that has gone by-the-by over the past decade. I have had a lively debate with many of my friends about the reasons for their purchase of B&O and many have simply admired a small company producing easily used products, with fantastic qualities including great design that can stand the test of time. Many of my friends can't be bothered with updating an LCD every couple of years because something else looks a little better and prefer to stick with the same product for many years at a time.

I think the notion of having a stand-alone Danish made brand is not 'idealistic'. For many years Bang & Olufsen was cutting edge. It's products were worth paying extra for and many people did. The Avant for example was just such a product. The greatest issue for Bang & Olufsen presently is attracting people to purchase the products - not trying to have them manufactured cheaply by 'god only knows who' in China. B&O used to do this by having products (not a couple of products, as the case now appears to be) that people would walk over hot coals to get. Now the products lack the differentiation from many Asian peers have. Being manufactured in DK is another differentiating factor, not just 'Oh yeah, take a look at my expensive B&O product - it was conceived in DK you know...'

Frankly, I'm suprised at the lack of care that people have about the product and its brand heritage. It sounds like instead of people wanting the brand to be the little innovative and quality Danish brand, that they prefer something with a badge and heck, as long as it looks ok. This is the very reason pirated goods the world over thrive. People want the looks without having to work for the product. If this is the case, luxury brands are all destined to the grave - no one will aspire to work for the craftmanship and quality if something can be knocked up cheap somewhere but it looks the part!

Certainly the day I wander into a B&O store and the salesperson tells me 'Oh we are now a subsidiary of Samsung' or 'all products are now made in our factory in Taiwan' is the day I walk to Currys and buy something, because at least I know that I no longer give a stuff wherever or whatever I buy beacuse I know its all cheap for a reason.

 

 

While I appreciate the points you make, I and others here have tried to say that "made in China" doesn't necessarily mean "inferior". I too would want the same materials, the same elegant engineering, the same design and expect the same longevity and robustness whilst maintaining cues to it's history and heritage.

The point at which the product is assembled probably has the least impact on all of the above virtues, most are "installed" during the R&D and design (both industrial and engineering) phase.

What if the choice becomes between buying a B&O product made somewhere other than Denmark (either elsewhere in Europe or the Far East) or there not being any B&O at all?

Likely there is a compromise that makes good sense, e.g. make the lower cost, higher volume products in the Far East while keeping the larger, heavier, lower volume product in Europe.

Cheers Symmes. Maybe I'm not structring my argument clearly enough. Believe me, I'm passionate about the brand. It's one of the only ones left for me to believe in. Most other products are subsidiaries of subsidiaries these days. I don't mind the odd person having a pop at me either - feel free to disagree, I don't hold myself out to have all the answers.

But what I do know is this. B&O is in a position today, because its management and board have been less than adventurous over the past decade. They have sat on their laurels on products like BS9000, BL8000 and BV7. These are 3 products I know, for fact, that have significantly propped the company up over the last few years - (wasn't the BS9000 destined to be discontinued about 4 years ago!)

B&O management have instead appeared to have given up in some areas. I mean the BS5 (perhaps it is good, I'm not convinced) has hardly taken off like a storm. In my mind it needs  a few additional features, then it really would be a best seller. The BL11 has hardly sold like the BL8000 either - the design just hasn't captured the imagination like the 8000's. The BV8 could be a much better TV with just a few changes and some brighter colours and maybe further placement options and motorised stands, but again, it's very plain jane.

In my opinion, if B&O were to develop products with real differentiation (and the linking system isn't enough anymore as competitors are on to that) such as quality and appealing mechanical movements and further use of aluminium and other elegant materials the world could be their oyster. Imagine TV's that could operate 3D without the use of glasses etc - these are real points of differntiation and it doesn't matter where these are made, people can really see the difference. Unfortuantly, it's really hard to see the differentiation with the BS8 - it we covered the branding, it could possibly be mistaken for some other products.

I just hope, that B&O really pull a few great products out of the bag and return to quality manufacturing, sticking to those values that people have long bought the brand on.

 

 

 

Teachable Moment:

Dude1, you are expressing an opinion which is fine and the sentiment is admirable. The problem is that you're inventing a factual basis for your argument. What sales figures are you looking at when you mention the sales of the BeoSound 5 & BeoLab 11 relative to other products? The answer is: none. You're referencing, at best, other unsupported conjecture that's tossed around so carelessly on this forum.

I will speak for my showrooms, but I have sold less than a half dozen traditional BeoSounds since the BeoSound 5 was released. I sell a BeoSound 5 with about 80% of systems. The BeoLab 11, since its released, has sold astonishingly well and I was taking a few orders before even making calls to my client base. 

If you don't like a product, you should feel confident saying so and letting your opinion stand on its own merit. Simply making up blurry facts and figures obliterates your credibility. 

Dude1:

Cheers Symmes. Maybe I'm not structring my argument clearly enough. Believe me, I'm passionate about the brand. It's one of the only ones left for me to believe in. Most other products are subsidiaries of subsidiaries these days. I don't mind the odd person having a pop at me either - feel free to disagree, I don't hold myself out to have all the answers.

But what I do know is this. B&O is in a position today, because its management and board have been less than adventurous over the past decade. They have sat on their laurels on products like BS9000, BL8000 and BV7. These are 3 products I know, for fact, that have significantly propped the company up over the last few years - (wasn't the BS9000 destined to be discontinued about 4 years ago!)

B&O management have instead appeared to have given up in some areas. I mean the BS5 (perhaps it is good, I'm not convinced) has hardly taken off like a storm. In my mind it needs  a few additional features, then it really would be a best seller. The BL11 has hardly sold like the BL8000 either - the design just hasn't captured the imagination like the 8000's. The BV8 could be a much better TV with just a few changes and some brighter colours and maybe further placement options and motorised stands, but again, it's very plain jane.

In my opinion, if B&O were to develop products with real differentiation (and the linking system isn't enough anymore as competitors are on to that) such as quality and appealing mechanical movements and further use of aluminium and other elegant materials the world could be their oyster. Imagine TV's that could operate 3D without the use of glasses etc - these are real points of differntiation and it doesn't matter where these are made, people can really see the difference. Unfortuantly, it's really hard to see the differentiation with the BS8 - it we covered the branding, it could possibly be mistaken for some other products.

I just hope, that B&O really pull a few great products out of the bag and return to quality manufacturing, sticking to those values that people have long bought the brand on.

I don't look at it as an argument, but a dialogue.  It was only after I re-visited your points without emotion that they became meaningful.  If we accept each person's worldview as legitimate and suspend our assumptions, then we actually can learn something.  I caught my own defensiveness after the new read, and it really resonated with me.  I get it.  Thanks.  Now I can move on to dealing with my 2011 topic; Narcissism and Low Self-esteem on the Web, or How dare my Facebook friends not show up at my Christmas party?

Hi Trip,

I know what you are saying and it's pure arrogance.

I do know what I'm saying - I have some contacts directly into Struer. The sales figures directly supports my argument.

Could it be true? You should know, apparently you know nearly everything.

Dude1:

Hi Trip,

I know what you are saying and it's pure arrogance.

I do know what I'm saying - I have some contacts directly into Struer. The sales figures directly supports my argument.

Could it be true? You should know, apparently you know nearly everything.

 

I'm sure everyone knows what they know and I think you are probably both right! I agree with a lot of what you say but it seems Trip has a different take based on his experience - I suspect this is yet another case of Trip's market and clientèle not being representative of most of Europe.

Puncher:

Dude1:

Hi Trip,

I know what you are saying and it's pure arrogance.

I do know what I'm saying - I have some contacts directly into Struer. The sales figures directly supports my argument.

Could it be true? You should know, apparently you know nearly everything.

 

I'm sure everyone knows what they know and I think you are probably both right! I agree with a lot of what you say but it seems Trip has a different take based on his experience - I suspect this is yet another case of Trip's market and clientèle not being representative of most of Europe.

 

I think you're right. But the problem arises when Trip dismisses everyone else and try to claim the high ground as if he sits on all the facts, yet decides that his experiences are factual across the board. Or when he tries to discursively construct a reality where his (perceived) arrogance and criticism of certain products are derived from envy of others, all in an effort to preemptively dismiss any criticism as invalid.

I mean, criticism based on envy is invalid, is it not?

So, if you do criticise a product, it's because you can't afford it, you know.

 

With that, yes, by all means let's stop criticizing our favourite company because Trip makes the case that B&O won't survive if we do, and we all want B&O to survive, right? 

And as we all know, B&O couldn't care less about us as individuals - or more to the point: Our critique of the products - they only care about the custom install segment as per Trip's business, and this is the reason they are coming out with a BS5 "MKII" which almost down to every detail seem to have implemented what the critics said was missing from the BS5 MKI ...

 

Seriously, Trip. I wish you well with your business, but you're in the US, have a very narrow business niche, and it really is getting tiresome hearing you beginning a post with "I speak as a customer here," only in the very next sentence you use the "we" speaking on behalf of B&O to make your point.

Let me put it bluntly: You may be privvy to some or a lot of information, but you're a retailer doing custom installs. Nothing more, nothing less.

Some posters on this thread are way to quick to step in with personal criticism of Trip, given their own posting rate compared with his. I've seen many threads where technical help has been requested, and Trip has been there with solid advice as to how to fix the problem. I wonder how many of his detractors (and I was once one of them) could say the same? Trip has come clean about his background as a dealer, yet there are others here alluding to their own 'inside knowledge' safe behind their avatars and usernames - people of whom we know nothing, taking to task those who have identified themselves to a greater or lesser extent to the rest of the forum. 

Perhaps if the ethos of the forum were less genteel then some strongly held opinions and a bit of banter might actually increase the post rate/number of active posters? I feel that there's little room here at times for anything other than anodyne statements of facts or technical figures. Some more honest banter would freshen up the place a little.

j0hnbarker:

Some posters on this thread are way to quick to step in with personal criticism of Trip, given their own posting rate compared with his.

Posting rate has nothing to do with reality.

j0hnbarker:

I've seen many threads where technical help has been requested, and Trip has been there with solid advice as to how to fix the problem

Has no bearing on the criticism of his statements.

j0hnbarker:

I wonder how many of his detractors (and I was once one of them) could say the same? Trip has come clean about his background as a dealer, yet there are others here alluding to their own 'inside knowledge' safe behind their avatars and usernames - people of whom we know nothing, taking to task those who have identified themselves to a greater or lesser extent to the rest of the forum. 

I'm not using my real name on any forum, as some of my income is as a journalist.

But again, that has no bearing whatsoever on the criticism of his statements. For all I know, he might be the nicest bloke in the world in real life, but that has no bearing whatsoever on how I perceive his arguments and discourses.

j0hnbarker:

Perhaps if the ethos of the forum were less genteel then some strongly held opinions and a bit of banter might actually increase the post rate/number of active posters? I feel that there's little room here at times for anything other than anodyne statements of facts or technical figures. Some more honest banter would freshen up the place a little.

You can't have it both ways. Either you want disagreement to "freshen up" the place a little, or you don't. If we did it like you seem to suggest, or as Trip has more than suggested, there would be nothing but positives on this forum. Seriously, if everyone had been positive about the BS5, do you really think B&O would have implemented so many of things (in the soon-to-come Encore) it was criticized for lacking?

 

Go forth and multiply Electrified :)

My post wasn't written with you in mind (though it clearly should have been), but I can't think of many times you have popped up in discussions here other than to dissect postings and initiate or propagate arguments. Some journalist you must be, what with your ability to see both sides of an argument.

j0hnbarker:

Go forth and multiply Electrified :)

My post wasn't written with you in mind (though it clearly should have been), but I can't think of many times you have popped up in discussions here other than to dissect postings and initiate or propagate arguments.

 

Oh, great, yet another person trying to claim the high ground, yet utterly fails to refrain from doing the very thing he's criticizing.

 

Anyway, let's see:

j0hnbarker:

Go forth and multiply Electrified :)

My post wasn't written with you in mind (though it clearly should have been), but I can't think of many times you have popped up in discussions here other than to dissect postings and initiate or propagate arguments.

"Dissecting" an argument is a very common way to take one premise at the time when countering it. You see, there are so many invalid arguments, based on false premises, logical fallacies and what not, that it's actually the best way to do things. You see, otherwise people can roll up and wrap anything into an argument without one having the possibility to counter it at the core. If you don't like the way I do things, well, tough luck.

 

j0hnbarker:

Some journalist you must be, what with your ability to see both sides of an argument.

As above. And I'll let you know I'm a pretty good journalist, because I know where and when to be critical, I know when an argument fails, and I can usually spot them from miles away. That very property also makes me a very good man to have in one's corner when PR and damage control is to be rolled out.

 

 

j0hnbarker:

Go forth and multiply Electrified :)

I object to this type of "banter" which should be reserved for the student bar.