Slightly off topic, but the Beosound 2 "sports armband" was made in Vietnam!

I can hardly believe the arrogance in some of the posts above. The Chinese are very capable craftsmen, in fact it's hard to find such quality manuacturing in Europe these days. And yes, cheap too. Because they get no vacation, and are willing to work hard for little money. Manufacturing in China "easily outperformes" their counterparts in  Europe. Better get used to it, because anyone can see the western world is on it's way down in favor of for example China. Check your governments finances..

And, designed by a "British guy" like stated above for Apple products isn't really a plus.. I'd rather haven it designed by Germans instead. To make a comparison to the car industry; quality of production of the once famous British automakers was in fact dreadfull. A bit of morningfog and you're character-full jaguar wouldn't start. It corroded already in store. I would rather buy a Chinese Jaguar, or Aston Martin. Same story with American products, worst quality known on this earth. So, if the Beosound 8 is a very good performer, I don't care where it's made, as long it's good, and most important of all, as long it's designed in Denmark by guys that know their business. 

jc:

I can hardly believe the arrogance in some of the posts above. The Chinese are very capable craftsmen, in fact it's hard to find such quality manuacturing in Europe these days. And yes, cheap too. Because they get no vacation, and are willing to work hard for little money. Manufacturing in China "easily outperformes" their counterparts in  Europe. Better get used to it, because anyone can see the western world is on it's way down in favor of for example China. Check your governments finances..

And, designed by a "British guy" like stated above for Apple products isn't really a plus.. I'd rather haven it designed by Germans instead. To make a comparison to the car industry; quality of production of the once famous British automakers was in fact dreadfull. A bit of morningfog and you're character-full jaguar wouldn't start. It corroded already in store. I would rather buy a Chinese Jaguar, or Aston Martin. Same story with American products, worst quality known on this earth. So, if the Beosound 8 is a very good performer, I don't care where it's made, as long it's good, and most important of all, as long it's designed in Denmark by guys that know their business. 

While I don't disagree with your post in general, I think I should clarify the point about the "British Guy". Designed, in the above context, means "styled". The distinction is between Industrial design (styling, ergonomics etc) and Engineering design (designing circuits, making parts fit together etc). In the Apple case it is the styling that is done by the Brit.

11048437:

I remember also I had chinese customers that specifically wanted products not made in China...hmmm

It's their way of differentiating from the general masses. The Japanese do not want Japanese products if they can afford something else. It's universal.

China is a big country that can build anything to the given specification. They have a successful space program and nuclear weapons (Denmark doesn't...). They'll get 10 year olds to assemble crappy toys out of suspicios waste materials if that is what you are willing to pay for. They'll be building Volvos anytime now, and I'm afraid they'll be more successful in it than the Swedish under Ford ownership.

They way I see it, an aspiring B&O enthusiast that wants an iPod dock has now two possibilities:

1. Beosound 8, built from decent materials to B&O specifications in China, superior performance, decent B&O integration and a somewhat bigger price;
2. A Kikinoko iPod dock, built from cheap plastics to cheap specifications in China, mediocre performance, no B&O integration and a somewhat lower price.

Your choice. As somebody already said, you can't buy wishes, you can buy products that are available.

B&O is not a mom & pop operation building products proudly in the same basement since 1492 anymore. It's a big company that needs to survive, and if they don't want to become a luxury company that attaches diamonds to someone else's mobile phones by hand, they need mass production. That is expensive and it will be outsourced for products like this, or it will not happen.

Many people were already complaining that the Beosound 8 is much too expensive, now you want it to be hand made in Denmark by Swiss clocksmiths from rare Earth metals, cost the same as a Kikinoko and still you would complain about lacking features. How do you really expect that would happen? I'm puzzled.

"Made in China" is a shame for B&O.

Discussing with friends etc. a good argument was always that B&O build their stuff in Denmark and you can feel and see the quality.

Now, a 990,- Euro iPod-Dock that's made in China is nothing special, it's just someone in Denmark who wants to make profit, profit and even more profit and doesn't care about the company and its roots!

The "they need to survive" argument doesn't count! They should be dead already as they made many many beautiful, reliable and fantastic products in Denmark without dying! Their product had the Wow-factor... that seems to be gone...

Most of the high end companies like "Linn", "Accuphase" etc. do manufacture in their home countries - like their customers expect it!

A Beosound 8 made in China could be sold for 500,- Euro and they'll still make profit. So, asking 990 Euro for it is some kind of burglary to the customer and so I have to say: Cheat on another customer but not me anymore!

The magic is sold...

I think they need a CEO that identifies itself with the company and not only talks bullshit that stake- and shareholders want to hear!

After finishig University I have to move to Denmark... and show them how to survive ;-)

tournedos:

China is a big country that can build anything to the given specification.

hmmm...let see.......

you have a choice between a Sony TV Made in China at a given specs and one made in Japan at a given specs........I.m sure you are going to say it does not matters because it is the same...!!!!

seriously, I think that chinese people are great...but the problem is that < given specs<..... I am tired of hearing that the ONLY WAY is to made products in China because we are going to stay competitive.  That is the only solution for a CEO!..there are a lot of  options.......he does not have to think, it will be to much for him!!!

I wonder in few years when the chinese dream will fade where CEO are going to produce their products?.......I think the african continent is the next one.....and then in 100 years from now, who knows,  maybe  human being will be able to train penguins to assemble Beolab whatever...!!!!! and then everithng is starting again. One product made by a russian penguin will be cheaper than a canadian penguin  bla bla bla.....so the CEO has found the solution!!!

Human being has a great mind and instead of taking that low road and e is time to come back to the roots and be able to explore new ways of producing at a competitive price.

Lights blue touch paper………

I wonder what the %margin per unit is on an iPod/iPhone/iPad that is made in China is? After all it’s a premium American Company utilising cheap far-Eastern labour. I would however like to bet it is significantly more than the %margin on the BeoSound 8 made in the same place.

I am personally of the opinion that iPods and anything Apple is utter sh**e, but if they lowered the price by over 50% or even more for what is (looking at Apples profits) a huge huge huge Corporate money grab for some skin and bone electronics and a tacky plastic shell sold in the hundreds of millions, then I may well be tempted to go along with everyone else and buy one. Until that happens, I think they are much overpriced.

I can’t understand why people on this forum adore the iPod, want to dock it with a piece of B&O and then complain about the price/quality/and where it’s made. Seems very hypocritical to me.

Still each to their own. Oh, and the last time I saw a decent Linn product, it was multiples of a B&O one. I wonder what their %margin per unit is??

…..retires to safe distance to watch fireworks.

Mr10Percent:

I am personally of the opinion that iPods and anything Apple is utter sh**e,

agree with you on this one! Sorry apple guys!!!

Personally i do not have problem with Chinese made products if it was made to specification,what i have problem with b&o greed!!!

In terms of production, China has many qualities, that's quite obvious.

But, can anyone name ONE famous worldwide Chinese brand? (This may change though in the near future!)

Many people seem to be dissing the BS8 solely based on the "Made in China" bit of the equation. How many have actually seen a BS8 in person, and felt it and touched it? I had the "pleasure" to do so yesterday (and today again, actually, at a different store) and it is distinctly underwhelming. Perhaps not the sound, but everything else. Even the cloth frets seems poorly stitched together (unlike the taut, dense material on the BL9). And unlike almost all other B&O products, it doesn't look good on the wall (sticks out unnaturally and too much). Doesn't matter where the BS8 is made, the choice of materials and the overall design is just way below expectation.

Leo

leogenghis:

Many people seem to be dissing the BS8 solely based on the "Made in China" bit of the equation. How many have actually seen a BS8 in person, and felt it and touched it? I had the "pleasure" to do so yesterday (and today again, actually, at a different store) and it is distinctly underwhelming. Perhaps not the sound, but everything else. Even the cloth frets seems poorly stitched together (unlike the taut, dense material on the BL9). And unlike almost all other B&O products, it doesn't look good on the wall (sticks out unnaturally and too much). Doesn't matter where the BS8 is made, the choice of materials and the overall design is just way below expectation.

Leo

saw it few days ago and I already expressed my disappointment concerning the quality of the materials and the overall design!!

Coming back to Apple supporter: I remember one of the member which is an Apple fan  told   us that Beosound 8 is the best designed product and also that the quality of the materials is one of the best B&O has ever made...come on ....are you sure that this is the right forum for you?........for sure you have all Ipod and Macs at home and only one B&O product....

....and wait..the best part.....I am sure that in few months from now some people will sell it because : no real separation between L-R, no updates, cheap etc...

Beoboiinoz:

<snip>

People such as Geoff Martin, with a BMus in Organ performance, a further tonnmeister degree, and a PHd in acoustics.  

<snip>

Best Regards

 

John... 

Is the tonnmeister the reason for the heavy weight of BeoLab 5?

SCNR

iPoditiv, not a tonmeister

Mr10Percent:

…..retires to safe distance to watch fireworks.

Making popcorn.... 

iPoditiv:

Beoboiinoz:

<snip>

People such as Geoff Martin, with a BMus in Organ performance, a further tonnmeister degree, and a PHd in acoustics.  

<snip>

Best Regards

 

John... 

Is the tonnmeister the reason for the heavy weight of BeoLab 5?

SCNR

iPoditiv, not a tonmeister

 

But no ones letting on so that we know for sure....lol.... except that almost certainly the drivers in it won't be made in house by B&O.

Best

John....

He he, I like the comparison between China in Denmark in a discussion about quality. More specifically the specious argument that China has a space program and a nuclear program, whereas Denmark doesn't.

Of course we don't. We don't have have hangar ships either, nuclear subs or  private planes for our prime minister, or even build planes. The reason is probably not a lack of knowledge and know-how, but the fact that we're 6 mio. people in this country, and China has way over a a billion people. And the state budget that goes along with our different sizes.

Personally, I don't mind stuff from China.  I'm pretty sure my Thinkpads are all made in China, pretty sure the parts for my SD722 is made in China (assembled in the US), and they're great quality.

However, the problem with this isn't that it is made in China, but the fact that you can get your product made almost as cheaply as you want it, and in this case, it seems like B&O could have paid a little more for some better plastics that felt better and  looked better. That, and have spent a little more time designing the iPod/iPad holder.

Why do so much people complain and say that they will "leave" B&O? You have the choice!

You can buy a 990€ dock made in China, but nobody force you. You can buy a BV10 made in denmark (at least the aluminium parts...), for a lot more money. In either cases, you have a good product.

Beoboiinoz:

Doctor:

I must confess that although I like the thought of all B&O being made in Struer , the reality has long been that large parts of the products have been bought in and only the final assembly has been in Denmark. All TVs have long been made from Far Eastern parts, much of the electronics are assembled in China, and very little except the alumium originates from Struer.

The Century was of course based around a Philips cassette deck made almost entirely from plastic and based around a twin cassette design, the Dolby chip was made by Sony, and the CD was again made for B&O by Philips.

The Beosound 8 may be assembled in China , but the sound performance is quite fantastic and the circuit design and general form are all B&O. I am still giving serious consideration to getting one, especially with the news that it can be included as a link speaker, via Steve at Sounds Heavenly. The remote may be cheap, but you can use a Beo4, 5 or 6 if you want. The Century was £1150 when last sold and the BS8 will outperform it by a country mile.

I'd agree; it seems to me that the upset here seems to be one of perceptions - a psychological issue rather than a material one.

 

People buy value added specialist products, where the perception (value added) is of greater quality, style, and/or performance over 'lessor' mainstream products.  

The reality is that certainly in the electronics/HiFi/TV/Audio world, perhaps only the mainstream majors such as Sony, Matsushita (Panasonic), Yamaha, and Phillips etc have the resources to build much of what they make more or less totally in house, including LSI's, chipsets, DVD/Bluray drives etc.

The specialist will likely make some parts in house, but the rest will be all OEM parts bought in, and final assembly take place in their factory.

My experience of the High End audiophile world, is that many so called specialist manufacturers, who are in reality assemblers, would like you to believe that their, and only their product, is the best engineered, best sounding product in the world.  However, none to my knowledge have yet submitted their products to blind, level matched ABX testing to prove it - so their 'take' on sound is purely subjective at best, and what one ends up buying is often the perceptions of a difference in sound, which is marketed as being better than 'lessor' products, and nothing more, apart from the usually very fancy box and elevated price tag.  As such, my experiences would lead me to believe that much of high end audio, along with mega buck cables, stands, and attendant voodoo and witchcraft, is a marketing con for gullible, obsessive HiFi anoraks, chasing HiFi nirvana at the end of a very expensive golden rainbow.

So, if B&O plays in the world of HiFi & Audio, is a specialist in that they use OEM bought in parts, assembled either in their own factories or elsewhere, does that make their products a con as has been suggested earlier in the thread?

I believe quite emphatically, no, and on two important counts.

The amount of R&D that B&O have put into audio and visual products is almost without peer, discounting perhaps large multinational companies such as Harmon International and the work of Floyd Toole as regards acoustics and psychoacoustics.  

B&O's R&D team are all tertiary educated, highly qualified professionals - not an enthusiast come amateur technician with entrepreneurial skills starting up an value added 'specialist' operation in the kitchen.  People such as Geoff Martin, with a BMus in Organ performance, a further tonnmeister degree, and a PHd in acoustics.  Research projects into acoustics such as the Archimedes project; the R&D facilities such as the cube - the largest anechoic measuring space in Europe, and the collaboration with leading universities into psycho-acoustics.  And certainly the use of a listening/viewing panel, who all have their hearing checked, and have to attend a fixed minimum of live concerts so as to be continually familiar with live sound as a reference, along with blind testing.  

I know of no other manufacturer in the so called high end of audio who go to such lengths in the pursuit of the closest approach to the original sound - rather than the most impressive sound, or the one with the most PRaT (Linn & Naim anyone?) or air and space etc.  No, the emphasis is firmly on scientific logic, research principles and objective analysis, and for that fact alone, B&O are worth the price of admission IMHO.

 

 

John... 

Well said.

I used to work setting up / installing Linn turntables - a superb piece of engineering, which, with a "contact" media like LP,  is important.  All made in Glasgow - I went to the factory regularly, and I knew the assembly lines etc where the parts where machined/made.

Back then, a similar ethos of "handmade in our own factory" was at the heart of what Linn and B&O did.

Some compnents would be bough in, for sure - B&O bought tubes from Philips and Pana, but no one would ever claim an Avant, or an MX, was simply a banged oem item.

As others have said, part of buying into a premium brand is the expectation that your shiny new pride and joy wasn't just a few weeks OEM work on a production line in some enormfactory in the back end of the Yangtze River Valley.

A few years ago, I was shocked to discover the a Linn CD player (well into 4 figures and with with no pre amp like a 9000/Bs4 etc )  I had cause to pull apart was based around an off- the- shelf CD drive of exactly the same type that a £200 Denon unit  had inside it on - had then both in for repair, and the drives were the same.

The Linn unit was assembled in Scotland, for sure, and the PSU, case and some secondary circuits were Linn's own dsign and build....but at its heart was a very plastic, very cheap, very plain mechanism.

BUT ...OEM components are part of manufacturing....its just the way things are.  No point re-inventing the wheel.

However, it is galling to think your £xxxx item started life in the hands of a worker paid a (relative) pittance in a very polluted part of the world

Has anyone ever opened up some A8's and looked inside?

I think this thread is out of control now.

Lucky me I don't live in Europe with many stylish choices in terms of A/V. Here in the States if you want A/V with style, good design and quality materials the choices are B&O and ....er....B&O...Oh and B&O......and Bose.

So you know what I will be buying. Made in Denmark, made in Czech Republic, made in China or made in Congo!. I give you a clue, is not Bose.

Viva la B&O!!!!!!!!!!

TWG:

Discussing with friends etc. a good argument was always that B&O build their stuff in Denmark and you can feel and see the quality.

So how do you feel about the Beocentre 2000 /02 or the 2200 / 4000. Very little B&O in any of these products not even sure where they were made tbh, mostly Japan I suspect. Again, the CDX cd players were entirely made in a Philips factory, hardly a budget item! Not sure about the many Hitachi / philips VCR's....

I do have to reiterate 10%'s comment:  What a contradiction it is to complain about a Chinese made iPod dock!  China is awesome for iPods, but HOW DARE B&O!!?!?! 

I remember a time when Apple products were designed AND manufactured in California.  Times change.  Life is what it is, not always what we wish.  If you don't like it, don't buy it.  If you need more separation, don't buy it.  If you think it sounds like crap, don't buy it.  If your panties are in a bunch because it's made in China, be logically inconsistent and don't buy it.  It's pretty simple.  I'm not going to buy one because my BS2 is still rockin after 8 years (the lifespan of ~4 iPods) so I have no iPod to dock in it.

My dealer told me they're selling quite well.  I'm glad B&O has a product that is selling quite well.  Hey, they actually got it released in time for Christmas.  They even seem to have a sufficient number available.  Hopefully, the BS8 will last longer than a typical iPod and bring more folks to the store to buy other, assembled in Denmark things.

I do hope you China bashers make good on your promise to find a way to compete against them with local talent.  However, the requirements for paying a living wage and not completely polluting the environment leave us Westerners at a distinct disadvantage.

Stan

BeoFab:

I think this thread is out of control now.

Lucky me I don't live in Europe with many stylish choices in terms of A/V. Here in the States if you want A/V with style, good design and quality materials the choices are B&O and ....er....B&O...Oh and B&O......and Bose.

So you know what I will be buying. Made in Denmark, made in Czech Republic, made in China or made in Congo!. I give you a clue, is not Bose.

 

Viva la B&O!!!!!!!!!!

What about Mark Levinson You could be pride of that

koning:

BeoFab:

I think this thread is out of control now.

Lucky me I don't live in Europe with many stylish choices in terms of A/V. Here in the States if you want A/V with style, good design and quality materials the choices are B&O and ....er....B&O...Oh and B&O......and Bose.

So you know what I will be buying. Made in Denmark, made in Czech Republic, made in China or made in Congo!. I give you a clue, is not Bose.

 

Viva la B&O!!!!!!!!!!

 

What about Mark Levinson You could be pride of that

Sure I love thier TVs

Now i am married with kids, i hardly ever get to listen to my music and the remote chance that i do, it will be on my Iphone. I know the bitrate is less, but according to many in the music business unless you have a serious setup you will "hardly" hear the difference anyway! I don't know.

Try going into your local hifi store and ask for an HTC dock etc