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Latest post 08-21-2010 12:52 PM by Electrified. 17 replies.
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  • 08-11-2010 1:52 PM

    External DAC for better sound quality ?

    Hello,

     

    i was thinking about a way to improve the sound of my B&O-System that you can see in my profile.

    It is espacially the Beolab 5, which i would like to exploit better.

    My current setting is, that all speakers and the Ouverture are connected with the Beovision 8-40 and its' DDS-Module. A Sonos ZP 90 is connected to the BV8-40 using an SpDif ... tuned in and sound leveled by V-Aux via Beo4 ... controlled via a special iphone-Application for the Sonos. I like the sonos system a lot, because i can use the napster flatrate AND it can access all my sound libraries on my NAS ... it can even grab my itunes stuff directly.

    When i connected my Sonos ZP90 Netplayer directly to the BL5 using their digital-in, the sound was better, than the result i got using the Ouverture CD-Drive connected to the Beovisions (8-40) DDS-Module via Powerlink/Masterlink.

    Next step was trying a Linn DSI netplayer ... again directly connected to the BL5 using digital-in ... amazing sound !!! You could hear things you did not realize ever before ... and i listened to well known titles in my library ... and we were not talking about high-resolution material ... Napster provides 192 kbit/s. It got even better, when playing high-res material from the NAS.

    The bad thing about this "digital config", that i have to change the Setup of the BL5 to option "0" (?), where you can controll the BL directly via the Beo4 ... going back to TV-HD and DVD, Apple-TV etc.pp always means to reset to "analogue" config "1" ... and so far there was nothing serious available on the market, that could provide more than 4 digital-ins' to hook up my other stuff (DVD-Blueray, Apple-TV, HD-TV set-top,etc.) AND a digital-out to connect directly to the BL5.

    But now there is NAIM coming up with a product called "unitiqute". This little thing alone has a decent DAC inside which should be superior to the Sonos etc.pp. And if that is not enough, you can plug in NAIM's award winning standalone DAC. And it has all the connectivity.

    So ... my question to the board would be: Is there any chance to integrate this NAIM unitiqute in my B&O world in order to elevate all my other audio/video components to a higher sound level ??? I don't want to switch configurations all the time ... and plug-unplug cables from my BL5.

    It would be great if the experts here could try to think about it.

    Would a Beosystem 3 help to manage the deal?

     

    Best regards from Berlin, Germany

    Tim

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    BV 7-40 BR ... Beolab 5 front ... Beolab 8000 rear ... Beolab 2 Sub ... Apple TV ... Apple NAS ... Beosound Ouverture  ... Technisat HD8-S ... Sonos ZP 90

  • 08-12-2010 4:38 AM In reply to

    • Electrified
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    Re: External DAC for better sound quality ?

    Beware when "testing" and especially if purchasing Naim (and to a lesser degree, Linn): They "voice" their products to get that "Naim/Linn" sound. In effect, they're introducing distortion to make that special "sound".

     

  • 08-12-2010 6:17 AM In reply to

    Re: External DAC for better sound quality ?

    Hi,

    people do also say, that Beolabs and B&O products in general are "sounded" ;-)

    And i come from a Dynaudio environment!

    All i can say is, that especially the NAIM DAC sounds extremely (!) well with the Beolab 5's ... way better than everything you can achieve with B&O-gear standalone.

    And even the 350€ Sonos Player sounds better using the BL5's digital-in ... maybe a result of the better D/A-Converter in the ZP90 as it it is a 2010 product compared to those of Ouverture and Beosound 9000. You simply gain more transparency and details.

    Best regards

    Tim

    BV 7-40 BR ... Beolab 5 front ... Beolab 8000 rear ... Beolab 2 Sub ... Apple TV ... Apple NAS ... Beosound Ouverture  ... Technisat HD8-S ... Sonos ZP 90

  • 08-12-2010 6:26 AM In reply to

    • Electrified
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    Re: External DAC for better sound quality ?

    Rookie:
    And even the 350€ Sonos Player sounds better using the BL5's digital-in ... maybe a result of the better D/A-Converter in the ZP90 as it it is a 2010 product compared to those of Ouverture and Beosound 9000. You simply gain more transparency and details.

     

    [my emphasis]

     

    Actually, that is no surprise at all, as when you use the digital-in of the BL5s, you're not using the D/A converter of the Sonos player, but the D/A converter of the BL5s.

     

    Edit/Add:

    Sonos use an outdated 16bit-only D/A converter with a native sample rate of 44.1 (i.e. everything is up/downsampled to 44.1kHz). Even its volume button runs at 16bit, meaning it will result in a loss of resolution at low volume levels.

     

     

  • 08-12-2010 8:37 AM In reply to

    Re: External DAC for better sound quality ?

    "Actually, that is no surprise at all, as when you use the digital-in of the BL5s, you're not using the D/A converter of the Sonos player, but the D/A converter of the BL5s."

    As you obviously do know a lot about the technical details ... which i appreciate very much ... i might ask you one of the questions that bugs me most: What does make the sound in the B&O systems ... especially in a digital setup using the Beolab 5. I asked this question to a whole bunch of dealers etc. ... nobody could really give an exact answer.

    How would you explain the difference  in sound quality in certain chains using the beolab 5, when switching from Beosound 9000 to a Linn DSI ... or when using a NAIM DAC in front of a cd- or DVD-drive? We have auditioned that several times and it was obvious for everybody (B&O guys and non-B&O). Is the ability to upsample (NAIM, LINN) responsible for it ... but how can it be, when the signal is finally converted by the D/A converters of the BL5 back to analogue before it gets transmitted by the speakers ICE's  acustically???

     

    There are also several test of beolab5 and 9 where  they improved sound quality using certain pre-amps with superior DAC's etc.pp. in comparison to playing the Beolabs with native B&O gear.

     

    Any ideas ?

     

    Best regards

    Tim

     

     

    BV 7-40 BR ... Beolab 5 front ... Beolab 8000 rear ... Beolab 2 Sub ... Apple TV ... Apple NAS ... Beosound Ouverture  ... Technisat HD8-S ... Sonos ZP 90

  • 08-13-2010 6:19 AM In reply to

    • Electrified
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    Re: External DAC for better sound quality ?

    Rookie:
    As you obviously do know a lot about the technical details ... which i appreciate very much ... i might ask you one of the questions that bugs me most: What does make the sound in the B&O systems ... especially in a digital setup using the Beolab 5. I asked this question to a whole bunch of dealers etc. ... nobody could really give an exact answer.

    In order to do that, I need to explain a few things first. BL5s are an active speaker design, as opposed to passive and "powered" speakers (the latter being a passive speaker with an inbuilt amplifier).

    An active speaker design uses line-level signal and an amplifier for each unit, whereas passive speakers use a single amplifier, eksternal or not, thus having the crossover "divide" the already amplified signal. In short, the active design divides the signal before each signal is amplified, and the passive or "powered" design amplifies the signal before dividing it to the various units.

    This means that an "active" design has to do with the crossover, and as such you can have active speakers externally amplified.

    I started out as a journalist, but I now work with audio mostly, so bear with me if I'm getting too geeky here.

    Anyway, active design has been the standard in studios for at least three decades, and for one reason only: Much lower distortion=most true to the source.

    So, what makes the sound in the BL5s?

    Well, if you use the analogue inputs, you get:

    Line-level signal -> analogue input -> Crossover -> amplifiers -> units

    If you use the digital input, you get:

    Digital audio stream* -> D/A Converter -> Line level signal -> Crossover -> amplifiers -> Units.

    *It doesn't matter where that comes from, assuming you use a digital source, such as an audio file on your computer, a cd or whatever and use the digital output, of course)

    Rookie:
    How would you explain the difference  in sound quality in certain chains using the beolab 5, when switching from Beosound 9000 to a Linn DSI ... or when using a NAIM DAC in front of a cd- or DVD-drive?

    There can be several reasons. Difference in DAC's, "voicing" (i.e. "house sound") but also the quality of the components. Linn and Naim are not trying to be true to the source. They have a "house sound", and in order to acheive that, they do whatever it takes. At one time, Naim had a D/A-A/D conversion going on in at least one of their DACs, but they usually "just" use a circuitry design with bottlenecks the appropriate places to compress the audio (and other things of, course). 

    They are not even trying to be true to the source. Even such cheap speakers as the AVI AMD9.1s will kill any naim or linn setup when it comes to being true to source (i.e. imaging and low distortion).

     

     

    We have auditioned that several times and it was obvious for everybody (B&O guys and non-B&O). Is the ability to upsample (NAIM, LINN) responsible for it ... but how can it be, when the signal is finally converted by the D/A converters of the BL5 back to analogue before it gets transmitted by the speakers ICE's  acustically???

    I'm no electronics engineer, but the best I can explain in that specific regard is that one can make a good, simple, low distortion circuit, or can not. Even something as simple as an active crossover can be effed up if you want to. And Linn and Naim wants to. They cater to the same people who are buying signal and speaker cables costing thousands of dollars per metre.

     

    Rookie:
    There are also several test of beolab5 and 9 where  they improved sound quality using certain pre-amps with superior DAC's etc.pp. in comparison to playing the Beolabs with native B&O gear.

    Well, "improved" how? Although it's not the newest of new that is in the BL5s, using an external  DAC should not be noticable unless you really know what to listen for. Unless, of course, if that external dac is voiced.

    Using an external pre-amp sounds stupid to me. You're introducing another amp, making the system even more complex when all you need and want are a line-level signal for the analogue input. This introduces distortion and makes you open to being a victim of voicing.

    I can't see any idea of having external preamps to feed the BL5s.

    One also have to keep in mind, that unless it was blind tests (ABX), those "improvements" are most likely first heard after reading the price tag.

     

     

     

  • 08-13-2010 9:47 AM In reply to

    • Electrified
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    Re: External DAC for better sound quality ?

    Sorry, but I just discovered this and thought I'd clarify (my emphasis)

    Rookie:
    before it gets transmitted by the speakers ICE's  acustically???

    Nothing get's transmitted "acoustically". Acoustics is the teaching of how sound waves physically behaves. "Analogously" is the right word in this context.

    I'm not trying to be a word-nazi, but I feel it matters when we're tech-talking.

    I wasn't in doubt what you meant, though, hence this - later - post.

     

     

  • 08-20-2010 5:27 AM In reply to

    • gysse2004
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    Re: External DAC for better sound quality ?

    I have one question, if beolab 5 is in OPT 0, how do you control the volume on both speakers ?

    My setup- Beosound 5, Beolab 5, Beosystem 3

    I been thinking of getting a Beosound 9000, to get the direct S/Pdif, since i think the sound of Beosound 5 is not chisp enough !

    I have been ripping CD's in WMA lossless.

     

    Peter

  • 08-20-2010 8:38 AM In reply to

    • Electrified
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    Re: External DAC for better sound quality ?

    gysse2004:

    I have one question, if beolab 5 is in OPT 0, how do you control the volume on both speakers ?

    My setup- Beosound 5, Beolab 5, Beosystem 3

    I been thinking of getting a Beosound 9000, to get the direct S/Pdif, since i think the sound of Beosound 5 is not chisp enough !

    I have been ripping CD's in WMA lossless.

     

    Peter

    You control them "on" the BL5s (by remote).

    When using the digital inputs on the BL5s, the speakers are now the entire stereo minus source.

    The BS5/BM5 have digital outputs (S/PDIF), so you can use them to connect to the BL5s.

     

    Edit: Sheesh, I must be tired.  If you have more questions or if I haven't responded properly, let me know. I'm going to get myself a cup of coffee.

     

     

     

  • 08-20-2010 8:54 AM In reply to

    • gysse2004
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    Re: External DAC for better sound quality ?

    The Beomaster is already connected to S/Pdif, so that when i press CD, it is going to digital !. I think the problem is the format

    that the files are ripped in (WMA Lossless ), mayby not so lossless after all ?, the bitrate is only half of WAV files. Problem with that is

    that they dont support cover art, and tagging ( difficult to navigate in )

    With Beosound 9000, you get "clean" digital sound. The DAC is in the speaker, so i dont see how fx. Linn player should sound any

    better. Or is there somthing that i am missing.

    What i ment about L.OPT 0 is that the speaker is "open" so how do you control both speaker volume ? By pointing left and right (he he) ?

    Peter

  • 08-20-2010 9:23 AM In reply to

    • Electrified
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    Re: External DAC for better sound quality ?

    gysse2004:

    The Beomaster is already connected to S/Pdif, so that when i press CD, it is going to digital !. I think the problem is the format

    that the files are ripped in (WMA Lossless ), mayby not so lossless after all ?, the bitrate is only half of WAV files. Problem with that is

    that they dont support cover art, and tagging ( difficult to navigate in )

    Yeah, BWF files (the more modern wav-files) support (some) metadata, but not coverart, nor "real" tagging.

    WMA Lossles is lossless. The resulting PCM data when "unpacked" (i.e. "streaming" through the digital output) is bit-for-bit the exact same as that of the original wav/aif/CDA data. Usually lossless formats can pack the files to about 60% of the uncompressed data. But it depends on the contents: The less dynamic range and complexity of the music, the tighter it can be packed.

    gysse2004:

    With Beosound 9000, you get "clean" digital sound. The DAC is in the speaker, so i dont see how fx. Linn player should sound any

    better. Or is there somthing that i am missing.

    In theory you're right. But the problem arises when people voice their products and don't try to adhere to "best practices" when implementing the solutions. A cd-player reads in optical and have to convert the optical signal to a digital coaxial signal. This is the place where you can make it distort, where you can voice it.

    To me, "better" implies less distortion, more true to the source, so in that context, Linn will never come close even to a cheap sony cd-player with digital output.

    To be absolutely sure, I'd need to listen to your setup and especially check the various parts and how they connect, but to be absolutely sure, go double check to see how the various things are connected. Er, you don't have to, but ignoring "self suggestion", or "hearing things that doesn't exist", it would be here you'd most likely find the culprit.

     

    What i ment about L.OPT 0 is that the speaker is "open" so how do you control both speaker volume ? By pointing left and right (he he) ?

    Peter

    LOL, that would be annoying, having to point correctly to get the right balance!

    No, connect the stuff to the speaker which has the plugs for that, and run a (coaxial) cable from that speaker to the other, using the SPDIF output in the "Plug speaker" and the SPDIF input in the other, in reality making the "plugged" a master and the other a slave. This way they'll work in unison with as little clutter as possible.

    I hope that's not too geeky an answer :)

     

     

     

  • 08-21-2010 7:55 AM In reply to

    • Electrified
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    Re: External DAC for better sound quality ?

    Peter, how did you fare?

    And Tim, how did you?

     

  • 08-21-2010 9:13 AM In reply to

    • gysse2004
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    Re: External DAC for better sound quality ?

    Well, not much further - I dont know if recived my e-mail yesterday, but since we both live in Copenhagen it would nice to have input from

    someone, with knowledge beyond the local B&O dealer. If you could send me a personal mail, would be much appreciated.

     

    Best regards

    Peter

  • 08-21-2010 11:51 AM In reply to

    • Electrified
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    Re: External DAC for better sound quality ?

    I've emailed you :)

     

  • 08-21-2010 12:08 PM In reply to

    • gysse2004
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    Re: External DAC for better sound quality ?

    Har ikke modtaget noget !Sad 

  • 08-21-2010 12:16 PM In reply to

    • Electrified
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    Re: External DAC for better sound quality ?

    Det forstår jeg ikke en skid af. Jeg sendte den via din profil, hvor jeg trykkede "send gysse2004 an email".

     

    Jeg prøver igen.

  • 08-21-2010 12:29 PM In reply to

    • gysse2004
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    Re: External DAC for better sound quality ?

    Ok 

  • 08-21-2010 12:52 PM In reply to

    • Electrified
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    Re: External DAC for better sound quality ?

    Sorted

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