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This is the first Archived Forum which was active between 17th April 2007 and 1st March February 2012

 

Latest post 04-05-2010 7:15 PM by Martin Gajta. 23 replies.
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  • 03-20-2010 1:19 PM

    B&O CD and amps for audiophile?

    I'm totally thrilled by B&O design,and my favorite is beosystem 5000,5500,6500,7000.I am owner of beovox s80.2,

    and when I bought them there was some 2.300€ and 3.500€ speakers (don't know what brand) and when I heard

    Beovox I thought they will be at least 5.000€ since I didn't know what was prices of used beovoxes.

    I bought them for 250€ and I am happiest man on planet.

    Next is amplifier.So please tell me what are "output transistors" on beomaster or are they mosfets or chip?

    I will buy it anyway but I'm interested what to expect.And also cd 50 or 5500.How good DAC is in them,

    and where can I put them in audiophile scale?

    Since I'm in proaudio industry I can compare my beovox with tannoy 7000€ studio monitors (DMT215)

    and quested monitors.S80 have smoothest transition between mid and high speakers and flattest phase I have ever heard

    (or measured).

    Now more than two years latter when I play cd (pioneer cdj100) I find myself in thoughts "wow I can't believe they're so good".

     

    So will I be impressed same way with amp and cd,or amp and some dac are better solution since

    I have most of my music in FLAC format.

     

    Thank You

    Martin Gajta

  • 03-20-2010 3:20 PM In reply to

    • Mohawk
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on 01-30-2008
    • Sweden
    • Posts 103
    • Gold Member

    Re: B&O CD and amps for audiophile?

    Hi Martin

     

    I agree with you, the beovox from that era have an amazing sound. Im a proud owner of beovox M70 to my beomaster 8000 sytem and I am still surpriced of the sound quality, power, clarity and dynamics they reproduce although they are 30 years old.

     

    Poweramplifier constructions use many different output configurations, here are some:

    In the beosystem 5000,5500,6500,7000 B&O uses bipolar power darlingtons as output devices (BDV 64/65).

    In systems like beomaster 6000/8000 and beomaster 2400, 4400 etc they use TIP141/TIP146 darlingtons.

    The standalone poweramplifier beolab 150/200 (and the beolab penta speakers) use 2SC3281/2SA1302. This is the only amplifier that have output devices in parallell to get high output power. Others like bm8000 have the output transistors connected in series instead.

    In some other systems different STK chips are used.

    In modern speakers they use their ICEpower classD amplifiers.

     

    /Fredrik

     

     

     

     

     

  • 03-20-2010 6:27 PM In reply to

    Re: B&O CD and amps for audiophile?

    On the CD front, forget the CD50 - it uses a good Burr Brown DAC but is distinctly quirky in design and the sound is not as good as the later 5500. The later 5500/6500 and 7000 use the Philips TDA1541A DAC which is still very well thought of. It is of audiophile standard and the whole device is beautifully designed and made. You do need a Beomaster to control it by remote though. 

    Surprised you like the S80 as much as you clearly do. The S120 and S45-2 are in my view much superior and are the stand out models in the Beovox range. The MS150 and M100 were also excellent but are rarer and rather large. 

  • 03-20-2010 7:50 PM In reply to

    Re: B&O CD and amps for audiophile?

     I use both the CD50 ( 1985 ) and the CD 5500 (1987) players at home

    The CD 50 has a full 16 bit decoder and strangely it only had one digital to analogue converter (DAC) that was used for both the stereo channels. To provide stereo playback, a very fast electronic switch was used to switch the analogue (music signal) output of the DAC alternately between the these two channels, over 86,000 times a second. This is very similar to how FM stereo radio works. This was of course followed by complex high-order filters to remove the noise that this sort of arrangement inevitably generated, and despite sounding unpromising on paper, the arrangement yielded very good results. The single DAC employed was made by Burr-Brown, an American manufacturer normally associated with high quality audiophile devices seen on more expensive equipment.

    This is a good website overview

    The CD5500 was based largely on a Philips reference design, so when Philips acquired Marantz in 1980, all the CD player designs are actually based on Philips schematics, but it was the implementation of the designs on single sided PCB's and using leaded poly caps that led to the Marantz getting a better press from the HiFi cognoscenti :-)

    Some later Marantz models used ceramic DAC capacitors as dictated by Philips but eventually they realised when the 16bit TDA1541 was introduced and used by many more CD players like the Beogram CD 5500, Revox 226, Marantz CD94 etc that maybe there was something about poly caps that mattered for analogue audio and the Philips CD880 and DAC960 CDP's are proof that they believed this to be so

    The Beogram CDX 14bit player was based on the Philips CD104, and used two TDA1540P 14 bit DACs to derive their binary weighted current sources (each one exactly half the value of the previous) for the 10 most significant bits by time division averaging. The TDA1540 data sheet states the accuracy of the current division is dependant only on the equal mark/space ratio of a series of binary divider and this process requires "filter" capacitors which do not need to be close tolerance , however if you look deeper these capacitors appear in the signal path, the ceramic capacitors fitted to the CD104 DAC appear to affect "the sound" of it's output, and this is possibly due to losses and or dielectric hysteresis in the capacitors, so not ideal from that point of view.

    Other TDA1540 based players of the time were the Loewe CD 9000 and Marantz 73

    I used to have both a CDX and CD104, I sold them both to finance my CD50 and CD5500, when I did some blind AB testing with them years back, it seemed to me that mid range vocals, pop and rock sounded better on the CD50, and classical and piano, instrumentals etc seemed to sparkle and have a better soundstage with the 5500

    To be honest they are both classic CDP's,  but not exceptional in any way !  

    My father has a Marantz CD-7 74 player, and it sounds way better than anything B&O can come up with, as does the venerable Cambridge Audio CD3

     

    The Arcam Alpha 5, Beogram CDX2, Beogram CD5500 and CD3300 all use the same TDA1541A DAC and SAA7220P/B 4x oversampling digital filter combination in their players.

    Having heard all four, again in blind ABCD testings, with three other people whose ears are way better than mine, it was a close call between all four from what I remember, no outright winner

    I have also heard many CDP's that use NOS, Bitstream and Delta-Sigma designs over the last 20 years, and the B&O 1541 DAC and 4x oversampling based players sound pretty good for the money to my ears, or maybe just right to my ears, rather than better !

     

     

     

     

     

  • 03-21-2010 8:51 AM In reply to

    Re: B&O CD and amps for audiophile?

    I do agree with Peter quite a bit as I'm also surpriced over your love for the Beovox S80.2 speakers.

    I do never consider the word audiophile when purchasing any stereo/audio products. My ears tell me if I like the sound and the way it looks also have an impact.

    I'm the very happy owner of a pair of Beovox S80.2 in white edition which I use on nearly daily basis. Compared to my white edition Beovox S120 I would say that the S120 is the better sounding ones and again my Beovox M150's sounds the biggest but still great.

    In a small room the Beovox S80.2 works well.

     

  • 03-21-2010 8:58 AM In reply to

    Re: B&O CD and amps for audiophile?

    Do you look at the provenance of all the ingredients that a restaurant uses, or do you go somewhere where the food tastes good?

    I'd say listen to the CD players and see what your ears tell you. I actually think the CD50 is much-maligned when it comes to talking about the supposed quality of the DAC. To me it sounded great. The CDX sounds great too, but if you look at the specs it shouldn't!

     

    President, Beomaster 8000 Appreciation Society

  • 03-21-2010 10:02 AM In reply to

    Re: B&O CD and amps for audiophile?

    I already have amplifier with 2sa3281 and 2sc1302 and it sounds good and I want to change it for beomaster but not to compromise sound.I don't have opportunity to listen every b&o amplifier in my country (Serbia),but with help of members here I believe that I will make good decision AND decision is beomaster 5500 and beogram 5500.My friend offered MS150 for 200€ and if you say that they work better than s80 I will buy them for sure (I have more than one room so I need more than one pair of speakers).

    At the moment I'm spending most of my time in one "computer room" in my place and I need some small speakers,so what do you think about cx50?I have JBL control and would like to substitute them for b&o.

    I also have to say that I listened new b&o products and was not impressed at all with sound,although visually they are beautiful.Somehow all of new boxes resonate in 250-400 region and have "wooden" bass.They sound nice and I would prefer them to Martin Logan speakers but I'm much more fascinated by their uniphase speakers.This conclusion is out of nothing and for nothing but just to bring my taste closer to you.

     

    Thank to everyone of you that responded so quickly and sacrifice your time to help me

     

    Martin Gajta

     

  • 03-21-2010 11:04 AM In reply to

    Re: B&O CD and amps for audiophile?

    The Beovox MS150 is the better speaker in sound. I belive anyone here can agree on that point.

    When the Beovox MS150 came out in 1981 it got state of the art in reviews at least here in Denmark.

    Beovox MS150 today is still still great but beware of foamrot and having a Beomaster with enough output power to get the full benefits of the Beovox's.

    The Beomaster that the MS150 were designed for was the classic 8000.  You can use them with alot of other Beomaster's and Beocenter's too but it would be a waste without the correct output power those speakers can handle.

    I can't say anything about CX50 but I do got CX100 in the kitchen and they sound great for their size. Again beware of foamrot! Replacement units can be bought at B&O stores. Use your ears to decide if the sound is better.

    With '80s B&O the Beomaster 8000 and 6000 had the high caliber amps for B&O with the output to match and the later like 5000/5500/6500/7000 became more simpilfied and more link optional while the amps were in the Beolab speakers.

    I do have both 6000 and 8000 too. When working correct they are what they are classic's early '80s B&O. Most do need service if you find one.

    The limits is in the linking and CD department + space for those systems.

    You can do a search for the Beomaster 5500 and Beogram here to make an educated decision on what to get.

     

     

  • 03-21-2010 11:23 AM In reply to

    Re: B&O CD and amps for audiophile?

    j0hnbarker:

    Do you look at the provenance of all the ingredients that a restaurant uses, or do you go somewhere where the food tastes good?

    I'd say listen to the CD players and see what your ears tell you. I actually think the CD50 is much-maligned when it comes to talking about the supposed quality of the DAC. To me it sounded great. The CDX sounds great too, but if you look at the specs it shouldn't!

     

    Actually the DAC in the CD50 is a professional quality one. Slightly odd in the way it works as it switches rapidly between the two channels. However the reliability of these sets is getting suspect and in my opinion it is the least good sounding CD player in the series. Agree also about the CDX - though the Philips CD100 on which it is based was always known as a stupendous sounding deck. 

  • 03-21-2010 2:46 PM In reply to

    Re: B&O CD and amps for audiophile?

    Peter :

    j0hnbarker:

    Do you look at the provenance of all the ingredients that a restaurant uses, or do you go somewhere where the food tastes good?

    I'd say listen to the CD players and see what your ears tell you. I actually think the CD50 is much-maligned when it comes to talking about the supposed quality of the DAC. To me it sounded great. The CDX sounds great too, but if you look at the specs it shouldn't!

     

    Actually the DAC in the CD50 is a professional quality one. Slightly odd in the way it works as it switches rapidly between the two channels. However the reliability of these sets is getting suspect and in my opinion it is the least good sounding CD player in the series. Agree also about the CDX - though the Philips CD100 on which it is based was always known as a stupendous sounding deck. 

    Sorry Peter - I should have said that the internal architecture is often maligned, using the one DAC for both channels etc. I know the Burr Brown unit is well regarded, but I suspect in audiophile circles the way it is utilised would probably be frowned upon. Anyway, I really rate the CD50 and would want one if I were to get a 5000 or 5500 system again. The upside down CD loading is pretty cool too!

    President, Beomaster 8000 Appreciation Society

  • 03-21-2010 4:08 PM In reply to

    Re: B&O CD and amps for audiophile?

    It is an interesting deck - the prototype was even cleverer! I do have one though it has stopped working again! Tim did have a look at it a while ago but it misbehaved very rapidly! We think it is probably based on an Aiwa - Tim did find the machine he thinks it is based on but this is so obscure he has never found one in the flesh! It showed that B&O were covering their options by developing both a Philips based machine (the CDX) which used the 14 bit 4x oversampling route and the Japanese 16 bit 2x oversampling.

    I actually bought a CD50 new when I had my 5000 system but sent it back because it was so noisy! I used a Philips CD player for a year or so before I replaced the system with a Beocenter 9500. My present CD50 is slightly quieter (well obviously a lot quieter at present! Laughing ) but a lot noisier than the CD5500. 

  • 03-22-2010 6:59 AM In reply to

    Re: B&O CD and amps for audiophile?

    5500 definitely..

     

    http://www.lampizator.eu/LAMPIZATOR/REFERENCES/Bangandolufsen/Bang%20&%20Olufsen%20CD5500%20CD%20player.html

  • 03-22-2010 5:11 PM In reply to

    Re: B&O CD and amps for audiophile?

    I have owned CDX, CD50 and each of the 5500 range of CD players and in my humble opinion the CDX sounds much nicer than any of the others. Its the one bit of B&O equipment that I will not change. The lack of remote control did annoy me at first so I got a CD50 with the optional remote kit and thought that would banish the CDX but after a bit of a listen it just didn't sound as nice.

    It is all horses for courses though and what sounds good to me might be awful to someone else.

    Also the stacking CD players only really look good when used with the rest of the stereo where as the CDX looks retro cool all by its self.

  • 03-22-2010 5:50 PM In reply to

    Re: B&O CD and amps for audiophile?

    The CDX does indeed have a very pleasant sound - it is often described as sounding analogue. I agree - slightly warm and fuzzy in some ways but very easy to listen to. I use mine with my Beolab 5000 system and it performs very well! 

  • 03-23-2010 2:13 AM In reply to

    Re: B&O CD and amps for audiophile?

    Agree wholeheartedly about the quality of the CDX.  Wonderful player.  My first CD player was a Phillips CD104, the source unit for the CDX, which I used with a Quad 34/FM4/405/ESL63 set up and it's still the best CD sound I have heard (although my memory is going now)  

    Cleve

  • 03-23-2010 6:10 AM In reply to

    Re: B&O CD and amps for audiophile?

    I have a CD50 that needs to go back for another attempt at repairing it!

    When it was working I did some A:B comparisons with my Philips CD650 which is a TD1541A-based player and I much preferred the CD650.

    The main problem with the CD50 is that it wasn't all that reliable when new and surviving examples are now  around 25 years old and prone to problems.

     

    Simon

  • 03-23-2010 6:37 AM In reply to

    Re: B&O CD and amps for audiophile?

    Peter :

    The CDX does indeed have a very pleasant sound - it is often described as sounding analogue. I agree - slightly warm and fuzzy in some ways but very easy to listen to. I use mine with my Beolab 5000 system and it performs very well! 

    i tought i was finished with my collection... i need a cdx for my beolab 5000... ;-) what about the cdx2? which dac is build in?

  • 03-23-2010 6:43 AM In reply to

    Re: B&O CD and amps for audiophile?

    Beovoxs80:

    I don't have opportunity to listen every b&o amplifier in my country (Serbia),but with help of members here I believe that I will make good decision AND decision is beomaster 5500 and beogram 5500.

    a good decision. i like the style of the beosystem 5500... the sound would be also nice. ;-) what are the originaly made loudspeakers for the beosystem 5500, some rl's?

  • 03-23-2010 6:55 AM In reply to

    • kallasr
    • Top 75 Contributor
      Male
    • Joined on 04-19-2007
    • Willich, NRW, Germany
    • Posts 1,077
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    Re: B&O CD and amps for audiophile?

    Just working on this system (in alu/grey/black), too.

    For me a real B&O design classic.

    Got a BM 5500, a BG CD5500, a Beocord 5500, MCP 5500 AND a hifi rack for the Beosytem (original B&O).
    Got the floorstands for the RL speakers and now I am looking for some RL60.2s....

    Ralf

     

     

    PS: I also got a white Beosystem 5500 incl. the record player, but the BG CD5500 does not read CDs anymore, I suppose I will sell this one - but my wife will make the final (color) decision ;-). Based in Germany near Düsseldorf and pick-up only, though.

    My Beo: Beosound 3000, Beolab 4000, Beo 4 DVD,  Beolab 5000/Beomaster 5000, Beovox S45.2 with Stands, Beosystem 7000 black with Beolink 7000, Beolink 1000, F1000 (3 cubes), Beovox 5000, Beovox 3000, Attyca 1.

  • 03-23-2010 7:44 AM In reply to

    Re: B&O CD and amps for audiophile?

    Thats just the way I would of described the CDX. Not quite as "clinical" as other cd players, giving a more analogue or natural sound to my ears. I also use mine with my Beolab 5000 set up with Beovox Penta's. I havent listened to many super expensive CD players except an old Naim CD1 (if i remember rightly) but have yet to find one that I prefer to the CDX.

  • 03-23-2010 12:02 PM In reply to

    Re: B&O CD and amps for audiophile?

    I personally like look of CDX but it have low WAF (wife acceptance factor).Wife think it looks like our old Gorenje Koerting turntable-tape-radio-amplifier music center but she also think that 5500 looks like our old Kenwood (first slim amplifier with commands hidden behind aluminum doors)and that's good,so I think that 5500 will pass smoothlyYes -  thumbs up.I also like attyca and those black shelf with aluminum drawers lookalike doors (dunno code-name).I like the idea that I read here that with MCP5500 you can control windows based winamp or something like that.Also if you noticed how easy is to integrate beomaster with squeezebox  and  how  Master Control Panel 5500 shows similarity with diNovo edge...

     

     

     

    Martin Gajta

    Jacob Jensen Rules

  • 04-05-2010 10:45 AM In reply to

    Re: B&O CD and amps for audiophile?

    stick with the 5500 CD Player Martin, even better if you can pair it with the 5500 amp, and a Beolink 1000 remote control

    being in Serbia it might be possible to get someone to modify your 5500 in the same way that Lukasz has done, you will then be getting a fine system for the money :-)

    Try the MS150 speakers with the 5500 amp first, if you like the sound then buy them for 150 euros, if not there are plenty of other speakers that sound very good with the 55 watt Beomaster 5500 amplifier, I myself had some Beovox 3800 speakers sounding very nice with the 5500, and at the moment I am using some RL60.2 speakers, but I firmly believe the key with speakers is to try as many as possible, and all will be revealed !

     

     

  • 04-05-2010 2:26 PM In reply to

    Re: B&O CD and amps for audiophile?

    superdario:

    Peter :

    The CDX does indeed have a very pleasant sound - it is often described as sounding analogue. I agree - slightly warm and fuzzy in some ways but very easy to listen to. I use mine with my Beolab 5000 system and it performs very well! 

    i tought i was finished with my collection... i need a cdx for my beolab 5000... ;-) what about the cdx2? which dac is build in?

    The CDX2 has the TDA1541 DAC and is much the same as the CD4500, The 5500 is better but much less useful with the Beolab 5000 system. The CDX2 is however less reliable than the CDX and I would go for the latter in preference. 

  • 04-05-2010 7:15 PM In reply to

    Re: B&O CD and amps for audiophile?

    Oh well I forgot to thank you and to say that I bought Beomaster 5500 and Turntable 5000 (I just love the way it looks together).Next thing is CD5500.

    I'm happy with sound and look,so quest for CD5500 continuing and new stylus for

    turntable...I will probably buy soundsmith's smmc4.

     

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