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ARCHIVED FORUM -- April 2007 to March 2012
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This is the first Archived Forum which was active between 17th April 2007 and 1st March February 2012

 

Latest post 03-18-2010 2:27 AM by Dave. 58 replies.
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  • 02-01-2010 6:14 AM

    • KMA
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on 08-13-2007
    • Posts 101
    • Silver Member

    BeoVision 10 bad panels

    This issue has already been in discussion earlier at BeoWorld Forum: http://forum.beoworld.org/forums/p/30638/245360.aspx

    However, now that there are more BeoVision 10 televisions in circulation, I think this warrants another, closer look.

    "Clouding" -- which means an uneven panel backlight that shows up as lighter areas or "blotches", visible especially during darker scenes and at lower ambient lighting conditions -- has been an issue with quite a few Samsung EdgeLED TV's using the same panel as BeoVision 10.

    It seems we have a case of the feared "panel lottery" with BeoVision 10:

    Panel lottery means that there are issues with panel quality control, and you either get a good panel (no backlight problems such as clouding), a "tolerable" panel (insignificant backlight un-evenness, not visible under normal viewing conditions) or a bad panel (clearly visible lighter areas in the backlight, which can be seen under normal viewing conditions in black or dark images as whiter blotches or flares of light).

    I'm sad to say that my personal experience, and a couple of other cases, point to un-isolated backlight issues with BeoVision 10:

    Case 1: 
    Of the first 4 BeoVision 10s that my dealer got in January, at least 2 that I know of had bad panels: my BeoVision 10 (quite terrible in dim evening lighting) and the BV10 of someone else who I personally know. This would mean a 50% "bad panel" rate -- at least 2 out of 4 had bad panels in this case.

    Case 2: 
    The BeoVision 10 reviewer at flatpanelshd.com confirmed that he had seen 4-5 BeoVision 10s, 2 of which had significant backlight clouding (bad panels), 1 had insignificant clouding (tolerable panel) and 2 were perfect (good panels including his review sample). This has been discussed by myself and the reviewer at: http://www.flatpanelshd.com/flatforums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=655&start=10

    Case 3:
    the earlier "BeoVision 10 picture problem" thread at this Forum.

    I find it very hard to comprehend that B&O, for a television that costs 3 times as much as the Samsung equivalent panel-wise, allows bad panels to reach their client's homes.

    If quality control is done properly, this could be easily avoided: B&O could simply check the panel batches by feeding them video black in a dim room, pick out the bad ones, and return them to the supplier, and not let them go to the assembly line. Obviously this isn't being done, although this level of QC is what I'd expect from B&O.

    To my understanding, B&O televisions undergo individual calibration at the factory, which results in superb colours. With EdgeLED technology, they should add a step to the process to check the backlight of the panels, as it’s crucial to dark image quality.

    A few words about Samsung (the panel supplier): prior to getting the BeoVision 10, I owned Samsung 40B7070 EdgeLED television. I had it exchanged 3 times by Samsung's Prestige Service, before I got a good panel. However, the "bad" panels I had were nowhere near as bad as the panel in my new BeoVision 10.

    Recent reports suggest that Samsung has taken a different position with their EdgeLED TVs, including the 8000 series, which has the same panel as BeoVision 10: Samsung no longer exchanges them as easily as they did when the model was introduced to market. Why? Probably because they want to sell out the stock before bringing the next generation panels to market, or because the number of exchanges has proven to be cost-prohibitive. This has caused an increasing number of bad EdgeLED models to end up -- and stay -- at people's homes.

    Are we seeing the same with BeoVision 10? Bad panels supplied by Samsung to B&O, and B&O accepting them?

    I wonder what is the course to take as a customer? I am hesitant to have the panel serviced (changed) by the local B&O service for two reasons:

    1) In light of the (seemingly alarming) percentage of bad panels out there, I might end up getting even a worse one, or a panel that is no improvement.

    2) B&O service centers do not have the same instruments to individually calibrate the panel's picture to perfection (to B&O standards) as the factory does. Different batches of the same panel have some variation between them, and without factory-standard calibration equipment, picture reproduction of a serviced panel may fall short of B&O's standards (where my TV currently shines, apart from the backlight issue). Case in point: I had a BeoVision 3 tube changed a few years back, and it was never as good as the factory fitted & calibrated one.

    Taking the TV back to my dealer is not an option, as I don't think my dealer would go for it, and -- moreover -- BeoVision 10 is the television I like most in the B&O range, so going for another model does not suit me. Exchanging the television for a new one from the factory is a risky option for both me and my dealer: there are no guarantees that the new one would be better, and going down this road might be cost-prohibitive for the dealer.

    What are your experiences with your panels? I think there are a few BeoVision 10 owners here. How does your television's backlight (dark images, such as night scenes in a movie) look in the evening or dimmed lighting often preferred for enjoying movies? Evenly black, or with blotches of light shining through?

    I've never seen backlight issues with other B&O LCD television models (such as BeoVision 7 which I’ve owned), and I do think they are unacceptable with BeoVision 10, given the brand and the price.

    This is a long post, but I'm very perplexed by the situation.

     

    KMA

    Current setup: BeoVision 10-46 (grey speaker cover, AR, motorized stand) with Apple TV 2 (FireCore), Sony BDP-S780, Mac Mini, BeoLab 11 (silver), Beo5, BeoSound 8 (red speaker covers). Accessories: A8 Earphones, wine bottle coasters.


    B&O product history, in chronological order since 1990, after the onset of the treaded BeoVirus (I tend to upgrade/change my setup "infrequently"): BeoSystem 2500 (with blue speaker covers), BeoLink 5000, BeoSystem 7000 (complete; silver/black), BeoLink 7000, RedLine 60.2, BeoVox Penta, BeoVision MX4000 (black, motorized floor stand), BeoCord VX5000 (black), BeoSystem 4500 (complete), BeoCenter 9500, BeoLab 8000, BeoLab 6000, BeoVision Avant (original, 28" AR, VHS, green), BeoCenter 2300, BeoVision 3-32 (grey speaker frame, AR, motorised cabinet), DVD1 (grey), BeoCord V8000 (grey), Beo4, BeoSound Ouverture (w/ floor cabinet stand), BeoVision Avant RF (grey, 32", AR, VHS), BeoSound 9000, BeoCenter AV5 (blue), BeoVision 1 (yellow, motorized floor stand), Beo1, BeoSound Century (yellow), BeoCenter 1 (blue, AR, motorized floor stand), BeoSound 1 (silver, floor stand), BeoVision Avant RF DVD (grey, 32", AR), BeoVision 7-32 MkI (AR, motorized floor stand), BeoLab 3 (black), BeoSound 2, BeoVision 10-40 (grey speaker cover, AR, motorized stand).

  • 02-01-2010 8:07 AM In reply to

    Re: BeoVision 10 bad panels

     

    <deleted>

  • 02-01-2010 8:40 AM In reply to

    • KMA
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on 08-13-2007
    • Posts 101
    • Silver Member

    Re: BeoVision 10 bad panels

    macsat:

     

    <deleted>

     

    Hmm... The deleted post is quite the teaser ;)

    KMA

    Current setup: BeoVision 10-46 (grey speaker cover, AR, motorized stand) with Apple TV 2 (FireCore), Sony BDP-S780, Mac Mini, BeoLab 11 (silver), Beo5, BeoSound 8 (red speaker covers). Accessories: A8 Earphones, wine bottle coasters.


    B&O product history, in chronological order since 1990, after the onset of the treaded BeoVirus (I tend to upgrade/change my setup "infrequently"): BeoSystem 2500 (with blue speaker covers), BeoLink 5000, BeoSystem 7000 (complete; silver/black), BeoLink 7000, RedLine 60.2, BeoVox Penta, BeoVision MX4000 (black, motorized floor stand), BeoCord VX5000 (black), BeoSystem 4500 (complete), BeoCenter 9500, BeoLab 8000, BeoLab 6000, BeoVision Avant (original, 28" AR, VHS, green), BeoCenter 2300, BeoVision 3-32 (grey speaker frame, AR, motorised cabinet), DVD1 (grey), BeoCord V8000 (grey), Beo4, BeoSound Ouverture (w/ floor cabinet stand), BeoVision Avant RF (grey, 32", AR, VHS), BeoSound 9000, BeoCenter AV5 (blue), BeoVision 1 (yellow, motorized floor stand), Beo1, BeoSound Century (yellow), BeoCenter 1 (blue, AR, motorized floor stand), BeoSound 1 (silver, floor stand), BeoVision Avant RF DVD (grey, 32", AR), BeoVision 7-32 MkI (AR, motorized floor stand), BeoLab 3 (black), BeoSound 2, BeoVision 10-40 (grey speaker cover, AR, motorized stand).

  • 02-01-2010 10:00 AM In reply to

    Re: BeoVision 10 bad panels

    I would expect B&O to offer an immediate replacement - mine was fine from day 1.

  • 02-01-2010 10:03 AM In reply to

    Re: BeoVision 10 bad panels

    My experience is that my BV10 has got some clouding issues. But it is not visible when watching a movie, only before or after the start of a movie. When there is an all black pause in a movie I can´t see any cloding.

    I am very happy with the picture!

    BV10, Avant DVD, BL5, BL4000, BS2300, BV6-26, MX 4002, 2xBeocom 6000, LC2

  • 02-01-2010 10:16 AM In reply to

    Re: BeoVision 10 bad panels

    The picture should be perfect! Some clouding is not acceptable on a 6K euro tv!

  • 02-01-2010 11:36 AM In reply to

    • expoman
    • Top 500 Contributor
      Male
    • Joined on 04-17-2007
    • United States
    • Posts 222
    • Bronze Member

    Re: BeoVision 10 bad panels

    If you read the Gizmodo threads about bad Apple 27" iMac's they are describing an issue where the LED backlight film is getting wrinkles in it during transport.  This could explain why finished units seem fine a the factory but then have problems at the final location?  One reader even explained how he took his 27" iMac apart and fixed the problem.  Sounds somewhat similar?

  • 02-01-2010 11:57 AM In reply to

    • RWST
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on 01-12-2010
    • Amsterdam, NL
    • Posts 50
    • Bronze Member

    Re: BeoVision 10 bad panels

    Hi KMA,

    Thanks for posting this thread. Sorry to hear you are having a bad experience with your BV10.

    I find it amazing that "panel lottery" phenomenon is even possible for a "prestigious" brand like B&O!

    One would expect that a tv purchased from B&O, or any product for that matter, should be without defects. In addition, from a company like B&O one should expect/get more than decent after service/sales.

    Myself, I am eagerly waiting to purchase the expected BV10-46", but will definitely make sure to discuss replacement terms in case of any "clouding" on the screen. I will even print your post to clarify my conditions.

    Your point is absolutely valid, any backlight issues is absolutely unacceptable with the BV10, given the brand and price.

    Good luck with your BV10

  • 02-01-2010 12:07 PM In reply to

    • KMA
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on 08-13-2007
    • Posts 101
    • Silver Member

    Re: BeoVision 10 bad panels

    expoman:

    If you read the Gizmodo threads about bad Apple 27" iMac's they are describing an issue where the LED backlight film is getting wrinkles in it during transport.  This could explain why finished units seem fine a the factory but then have problems at the final location?  One reader even explained how he took his 27" iMac apart and fixed the problem.  Sounds somewhat similar?

    I'll have a look at the Gizmondo threads...

    Given how well B&O products are packaged, and the fact that BV10 can only be transported up-right, I am somewhat hesitant to blame the transport. If that is the case however, B&O need to do something about it.

    Another interesting point is that when I turn the BV10 on, for the first 10 minutes (or so), the backlight is perfect. After the panel has warmed up for more than 10 minutes, the white blotches and larger uneven areas appear.

    I've waited for 3 weeks now to see if the backlight uniformity would improve over time, as was the case with one BeoVision 10 owner who shared his experience on this forum. Sadly, there's been no improvement.

     

    KMA

    Current setup: BeoVision 10-46 (grey speaker cover, AR, motorized stand) with Apple TV 2 (FireCore), Sony BDP-S780, Mac Mini, BeoLab 11 (silver), Beo5, BeoSound 8 (red speaker covers). Accessories: A8 Earphones, wine bottle coasters.


    B&O product history, in chronological order since 1990, after the onset of the treaded BeoVirus (I tend to upgrade/change my setup "infrequently"): BeoSystem 2500 (with blue speaker covers), BeoLink 5000, BeoSystem 7000 (complete; silver/black), BeoLink 7000, RedLine 60.2, BeoVox Penta, BeoVision MX4000 (black, motorized floor stand), BeoCord VX5000 (black), BeoSystem 4500 (complete), BeoCenter 9500, BeoLab 8000, BeoLab 6000, BeoVision Avant (original, 28" AR, VHS, green), BeoCenter 2300, BeoVision 3-32 (grey speaker frame, AR, motorised cabinet), DVD1 (grey), BeoCord V8000 (grey), Beo4, BeoSound Ouverture (w/ floor cabinet stand), BeoVision Avant RF (grey, 32", AR, VHS), BeoSound 9000, BeoCenter AV5 (blue), BeoVision 1 (yellow, motorized floor stand), Beo1, BeoSound Century (yellow), BeoCenter 1 (blue, AR, motorized floor stand), BeoSound 1 (silver, floor stand), BeoVision Avant RF DVD (grey, 32", AR), BeoVision 7-32 MkI (AR, motorized floor stand), BeoLab 3 (black), BeoSound 2, BeoVision 10-40 (grey speaker cover, AR, motorized stand).

  • 02-01-2010 12:16 PM In reply to

    • RWST
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on 01-12-2010
    • Amsterdam, NL
    • Posts 50
    • Bronze Member

    Re: BeoVision 10 bad panels

    It is my opinion that your dealer should carefully listen to your problem, and as his duty, he should report this to B&O headquarters. This is not a minor issue, as I understand this is not an isolated case.

    Don't forget B&O is a public traded company, any cases such as "panel lottery" linked to B&O's image is more than a serious issue for those responsible within Investor Relations .

  • 02-01-2010 4:20 PM In reply to

    • KMA
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on 08-13-2007
    • Posts 101
    • Silver Member

    Re: BeoVision 10 bad panels

    RWST:

    It is my opinion that your dealer should carefully listen to your problem, and as his duty, he should report this to B&O headquarters. This is not a minor issue, as I understand this is not an isolated case.

    Don't forget B&O is a public traded company, any cases such as "panel lottery" linked to B&O's image is more than a serious issue for those responsible within Investor Relations .

    Thanks for your opinion and advice, I will follow this route.

    I agree, "panel lottery" and B&O are an unacceptable combination, and I'd like to think that B&O will investigate the origin of the panel problems. BeoVision 10 sells very well, as far as I have been told, so issues like these should be sorted out quickly and early on in the product's lifespan.

    KMA

    Current setup: BeoVision 10-46 (grey speaker cover, AR, motorized stand) with Apple TV 2 (FireCore), Sony BDP-S780, Mac Mini, BeoLab 11 (silver), Beo5, BeoSound 8 (red speaker covers). Accessories: A8 Earphones, wine bottle coasters.


    B&O product history, in chronological order since 1990, after the onset of the treaded BeoVirus (I tend to upgrade/change my setup "infrequently"): BeoSystem 2500 (with blue speaker covers), BeoLink 5000, BeoSystem 7000 (complete; silver/black), BeoLink 7000, RedLine 60.2, BeoVox Penta, BeoVision MX4000 (black, motorized floor stand), BeoCord VX5000 (black), BeoSystem 4500 (complete), BeoCenter 9500, BeoLab 8000, BeoLab 6000, BeoVision Avant (original, 28" AR, VHS, green), BeoCenter 2300, BeoVision 3-32 (grey speaker frame, AR, motorised cabinet), DVD1 (grey), BeoCord V8000 (grey), Beo4, BeoSound Ouverture (w/ floor cabinet stand), BeoVision Avant RF (grey, 32", AR, VHS), BeoSound 9000, BeoCenter AV5 (blue), BeoVision 1 (yellow, motorized floor stand), Beo1, BeoSound Century (yellow), BeoCenter 1 (blue, AR, motorized floor stand), BeoSound 1 (silver, floor stand), BeoVision Avant RF DVD (grey, 32", AR), BeoVision 7-32 MkI (AR, motorized floor stand), BeoLab 3 (black), BeoSound 2, BeoVision 10-40 (grey speaker cover, AR, motorized stand).

  • 02-01-2010 5:23 PM In reply to

    • TWG
    • Top 75 Contributor
    • Joined on 04-17-2007
    • Germany
    • Posts 950
    • Gold Member

    Re: BeoVision 10 bad panels

    KMA:

    Given how well B&O products are packaged, and the fact that BV10 can only be transported up-right, I am somewhat hesitant to blame the transport. If that is the case however, B&O need to do something about it.

    Another interesting point is that when I turn the BV10 on, for the first 10 minutes (or so), the backlight is perfect. After the panel has warmed up for more than 10 minutes, the white blotches and larger uneven areas appear.

    I've waited for 3 weeks now to see if the backlight uniformity would improve over time, as was the case with one BeoVision 10 owner who shared his experience on this forum. Sadly, there's been no improvement.

     



    The fact of getting a "cloudy" backlit TV for such a price is realy anoying.

    The fact that it gets cloudy after 10minutes looks like a heat problem  of the panel. Do the panels use edge backlight or are the Leds on the back of the panels for local dimming etc.? If the Leds are behind the panel they don't have the same brightness level all over the panel surface as they are controlled according to the picture the panel is showing. This means that the Led area of a bright area on the screen are much brigther than the Leds used on the darker areas of the picture. I think this is what you see as "clouds" on the picture: The Leds behind the panel which different brightness levels. And if the problem occurs after 10minutes it could be the heat from the Leds that shine through the panel. If this is the case there is nothing B&O could do except sending the faulty panels back to Samsung and tell them to put those bad panels to where the sun is not shining ;-)

    I hope my point is clear as my english is funny and a foreign language for me :-)

     

     

  • 02-01-2010 5:56 PM In reply to

    • KMA
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on 08-13-2007
    • Posts 101
    • Silver Member

    Re: BeoVision 10 bad panels

    TWG:

    KMA:

    Given how well B&O products are packaged, and the fact that BV10 can only be transported up-right, I am somewhat hesitant to blame the transport. If that is the case however, B&O need to do something about it.

    Another interesting point is that when I turn the BV10 on, for the first 10 minutes (or so), the backlight is perfect. After the panel has warmed up for more than 10 minutes, the white blotches and larger uneven areas appear.

    I've waited for 3 weeks now to see if the backlight uniformity would improve over time, as was the case with one BeoVision 10 owner who shared his experience on this forum. Sadly, there's been no improvement.

     



    The fact of getting a "cloudy" backlit TV for such a price is realy anoying.

    The fact that it gets cloudy after 10minutes looks like a heat problem  of the panel. Do the panels use edge backlight or are the Leds on the back of the panels for local dimming etc.? If the Leds are behind the panel they don't have the same brightness level all over the panel surface as they are controlled according to the picture the panel is showing. This means that the Led area of a bright area on the screen are much brigther than the Leds used on the darker areas of the picture. I think this is what you see as "clouds" on the picture: The Leds behind the panel which different brightness levels. And if the problem occurs after 10minutes it could be the heat from the Leds that shine through the panel. If this is the case there is nothing B&O could do except sending the faulty panels back to Samsung and tell them to put those bad panels to where the sun is not shining ;-)

    I hope my point is clear as my english is funny and a foreign language for me :-)

    Thanks for your response and insight. Actually, BeoVision 10 uses an edgeLED panel, so there are no leds behind the screen, only surrounding it. However, it is obvious that in my case the "clouding" is triggered by the panel warming up. After 10 minutes, the lighter patches in the backlight are there to stay. 

     

    KMA

    Current setup: BeoVision 10-46 (grey speaker cover, AR, motorized stand) with Apple TV 2 (FireCore), Sony BDP-S780, Mac Mini, BeoLab 11 (silver), Beo5, BeoSound 8 (red speaker covers). Accessories: A8 Earphones, wine bottle coasters.


    B&O product history, in chronological order since 1990, after the onset of the treaded BeoVirus (I tend to upgrade/change my setup "infrequently"): BeoSystem 2500 (with blue speaker covers), BeoLink 5000, BeoSystem 7000 (complete; silver/black), BeoLink 7000, RedLine 60.2, BeoVox Penta, BeoVision MX4000 (black, motorized floor stand), BeoCord VX5000 (black), BeoSystem 4500 (complete), BeoCenter 9500, BeoLab 8000, BeoLab 6000, BeoVision Avant (original, 28" AR, VHS, green), BeoCenter 2300, BeoVision 3-32 (grey speaker frame, AR, motorised cabinet), DVD1 (grey), BeoCord V8000 (grey), Beo4, BeoSound Ouverture (w/ floor cabinet stand), BeoVision Avant RF (grey, 32", AR, VHS), BeoSound 9000, BeoCenter AV5 (blue), BeoVision 1 (yellow, motorized floor stand), Beo1, BeoSound Century (yellow), BeoCenter 1 (blue, AR, motorized floor stand), BeoSound 1 (silver, floor stand), BeoVision Avant RF DVD (grey, 32", AR), BeoVision 7-32 MkI (AR, motorized floor stand), BeoLab 3 (black), BeoSound 2, BeoVision 10-40 (grey speaker cover, AR, motorized stand).

  • 02-02-2010 9:17 AM In reply to

    • RWST
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on 01-12-2010
    • Amsterdam, NL
    • Posts 50
    • Bronze Member

    Re: BeoVision 10 bad panels

    KMA, you are right, the BV10 has been a hit for the company since it hit the markets, hence the fast introduction of the 46" as a second model in the range. As the BV10 seems to turn into a cashcow for B&O, I find it highly unlikely that they will ignore "your" case.

    I am sure you know that you can contact B&O on their official site under customer service, maybe an idea to post your problem there.

    Anyways, if you do go back to your dealer, I would be very much interested in their response/action.

    Regards

  • 02-02-2010 10:03 AM In reply to

    Re: BeoVision 10 bad panels

    This bad panel problem seems to be affecting a lot of LCD/LED panel why didnt B&O produce better priced plasma panels there reputation for using the panasonic panel is superb in reliability.

     

  • 02-02-2010 10:18 AM In reply to

    • KMA
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on 08-13-2007
    • Posts 101
    • Silver Member

    Re: BeoVision 10 bad panels

    RWST:

    You are right, the BV10 has been a hit for the company since it hit the markets, hence the fast introduction of the 46" as a second model in the range. As the BV10 seems to turn into a cashcow for B&O, I find it highly unlikely that they will ignore "your" case.

    I am sure you know that you can contact B&O on their official site under customer service, maybe an idea to post your problem there.

    Anyways, if you do go back to your dealer, I would be very much interested in their response/action.

    Regards

    Yes, I sent a detailed message to B&O Customer Service yesterday. I am sure they are looking into the matter.

    I was also very straightforward in asking B&O about their position regarding backlight "clouding": some manufacturers don't consider it a defect and dismiss it as "inherent to LCD technology" (Sony being the prime example). In my opinion, with regard to any premium brand, or top-of-the-line televisions of mainstream consumer brands, that's a load of cr*p.

    My position on this is clear :)

    It only takes proper QC, which, on the other hand, of course adds to the costs of a panel, and in the extreme means that about 10-20% of all panels manufactured should be trashed due to defects. However, the highest level of quality is what we pay for with brands such as B&O, so they must be able to afford uncompromised selection of panels (and other components) from their suppliers. 

    There's an interesting article about LCD panel quality, pricing, classification and standards at:

    http://www.behardware.com/articles/589-1/panels-a-carte-mura-components-dead-pixels.html

    The article is from 2005 (!), and what I find amazing is that LCD panel manufacturers haven't been able (read: willing) to set the industry standard for a "good" panel to this date. There are policies and standards about dead pixels, but no recommended policy or standards for "clouding" or other varied backlight defects and imperfections, giving each manufacturer the opportunity to take whatever position they want on the matter.

    As long as we keep on accepting inferior or defective panels, manufacturers keep on selling them. QC costs are may be a bit*h, but so is the negative publicity resulting from the lack or omission thereof. With that said, as this is a public forum, I hope this thread gets ultimately viewed as constructive.

    I truly believe that B&O strives to operate by the highest of standards -- it is their lifeline. So I am sure they will sort out any and all issues with the BeoVision 10. I also hope that the panel backlight problems are not wide-spread. After all, BeoVision 10 is simply a magnificent new product line. 

    KMA

    Current setup: BeoVision 10-46 (grey speaker cover, AR, motorized stand) with Apple TV 2 (FireCore), Sony BDP-S780, Mac Mini, BeoLab 11 (silver), Beo5, BeoSound 8 (red speaker covers). Accessories: A8 Earphones, wine bottle coasters.


    B&O product history, in chronological order since 1990, after the onset of the treaded BeoVirus (I tend to upgrade/change my setup "infrequently"): BeoSystem 2500 (with blue speaker covers), BeoLink 5000, BeoSystem 7000 (complete; silver/black), BeoLink 7000, RedLine 60.2, BeoVox Penta, BeoVision MX4000 (black, motorized floor stand), BeoCord VX5000 (black), BeoSystem 4500 (complete), BeoCenter 9500, BeoLab 8000, BeoLab 6000, BeoVision Avant (original, 28" AR, VHS, green), BeoCenter 2300, BeoVision 3-32 (grey speaker frame, AR, motorised cabinet), DVD1 (grey), BeoCord V8000 (grey), Beo4, BeoSound Ouverture (w/ floor cabinet stand), BeoVision Avant RF (grey, 32", AR, VHS), BeoSound 9000, BeoCenter AV5 (blue), BeoVision 1 (yellow, motorized floor stand), Beo1, BeoSound Century (yellow), BeoCenter 1 (blue, AR, motorized floor stand), BeoSound 1 (silver, floor stand), BeoVision Avant RF DVD (grey, 32", AR), BeoVision 7-32 MkI (AR, motorized floor stand), BeoLab 3 (black), BeoSound 2, BeoVision 10-40 (grey speaker cover, AR, motorized stand).

  • 02-02-2010 4:25 PM In reply to

    • RWST
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on 01-12-2010
    • Amsterdam, NL
    • Posts 50
    • Bronze Member

    Re: BeoVision 10 bad panels

    KMA, your feedback from B&O would be very much appreciated.

    And again good luck with your case.

    Regards

  • 02-07-2010 10:50 AM In reply to

    Re: BeoVision 10 bad panels

    KMA, thanks for your info. good luck to you.

  • 02-09-2010 11:07 AM In reply to

    • RWST
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    • Joined on 01-12-2010
    • Amsterdam, NL
    • Posts 50
    • Bronze Member

    Re: BeoVision 10 bad panels

    Hi KMA,

    Any response yet from B&O regarding"your" case?

    Thanks in advance.

  • 02-09-2010 4:03 PM In reply to

    • KMA
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on 08-13-2007
    • Posts 101
    • Silver Member

    Re: BeoVision 10 bad panels

    RWST:

    Hi KMA,

    Any response yet from B&O regarding"your" case?

    Thanks in advance.

     

    Hi RWST,

    Unfortunately no, B&O Customer Service have given no response to the complaint I sent them about the backlight clouding defect. It seems that no brand - no matter how high-end - wants to touch the subject even with the longest of sticks. This seems to be the industry policy.

    However, I noticed the BV10 Service Manual is now online for BeoWorld Members - thank you admins! - and had a look at what it says about replacing the panel.

    It seems to be quite a simple procedure, with only a couple of steps involved, and the service can and should be done at the client's home. That is good news.

    However, I am still hesitant to go down the service road, until B&O indicates that they have sorted out the backlight quality issues completely, for a couple of reasons:

    1) From the Service Manual, as I also suspected myself:

    --

    General considerations

    - Correct adjustment of all parameters can only be obtained by using special test signals and equipment for light measurement.

    => This refers to the special calibration equipment and conditions used at the factory for individual calibration, or to an ISF certified professional calibrator with very expensive pro calibration equipment.

    - Factory settings will give the best result.

    => Best general results, yes, but not the correct/optimum results, referring to the first consideration about calibration.

    --

    In other words this means that a serviced BeoVision 10 does not have the benefits of individual calibration at the factory, and the calibration to the optimal individual parameters is something we pay for in terms of B&O picture quality. The difference may not be much, but it's nonetheless a trade-off in picture quality with serviced panels.

    2) With EdgeLED panels, which are generally more prone to backlight defects than conventional CCFL-panels due to their extremely thin structure and sensitive light-guide plate, there is no guarantee that the new panel would be better. There's a reason why Samsung, the panel manufacturer, uses automatic dimming in their edgeLED-TV's: when the image has dark content, the backlight dims radically, which hides most small backlight problems. This is mentioned in a few Samsung "LED-TV" reviews.

    3) In addition, the replacement panels are shipped separately as single units from B&O or their supplier, and can easily be mishandled by the shipping company during transit. That is the reason why panels are usually shipped in large quantities from suppliers. The size of the shipment protects the individual units, and large shipments can only be handled the way they are meant to be handled. Transporting a single edgeLED-panel for example laying flat (and not in the correct upright position) is pretty much a guarantee for backlight problems caused by structural stress during transport. 

    This is one of the reasons why there are documented cases of serviced edgeLED panels being even worse than the original in terms of backlight uniformity. This is also the reason why BeoVision 10 is packaged the way it is, and why it is transported on a pallet, securely upright.

    From the Service Manual again:

    --
    Transport and handling

    The product must not be transported placed on the screen.
    --

    In short, it's a lottery how a serviced panel will turn out.

    I can try and live with the current panel with its backlight defect, if I stick to watching BeoVision 10 always in a well-lit room. However, having pretty much all the lights on at night when watching TV somewhat ruins the home movie experience :)

    I'll try to squeeze in a meet with my dealer this week, to see if they have any suggestions, and what is their opinion on the matter.

     

    KMA

    Current setup: BeoVision 10-46 (grey speaker cover, AR, motorized stand) with Apple TV 2 (FireCore), Sony BDP-S780, Mac Mini, BeoLab 11 (silver), Beo5, BeoSound 8 (red speaker covers). Accessories: A8 Earphones, wine bottle coasters.


    B&O product history, in chronological order since 1990, after the onset of the treaded BeoVirus (I tend to upgrade/change my setup "infrequently"): BeoSystem 2500 (with blue speaker covers), BeoLink 5000, BeoSystem 7000 (complete; silver/black), BeoLink 7000, RedLine 60.2, BeoVox Penta, BeoVision MX4000 (black, motorized floor stand), BeoCord VX5000 (black), BeoSystem 4500 (complete), BeoCenter 9500, BeoLab 8000, BeoLab 6000, BeoVision Avant (original, 28" AR, VHS, green), BeoCenter 2300, BeoVision 3-32 (grey speaker frame, AR, motorised cabinet), DVD1 (grey), BeoCord V8000 (grey), Beo4, BeoSound Ouverture (w/ floor cabinet stand), BeoVision Avant RF (grey, 32", AR, VHS), BeoSound 9000, BeoCenter AV5 (blue), BeoVision 1 (yellow, motorized floor stand), Beo1, BeoSound Century (yellow), BeoCenter 1 (blue, AR, motorized floor stand), BeoSound 1 (silver, floor stand), BeoVision Avant RF DVD (grey, 32", AR), BeoVision 7-32 MkI (AR, motorized floor stand), BeoLab 3 (black), BeoSound 2, BeoVision 10-40 (grey speaker cover, AR, motorized stand).

  • 02-10-2010 5:54 PM In reply to

    Re: BeoVision 10 bad panels

    I was reading local Hong Kong consumer magazines (Dec  09 edition) and came across an article about 46' EDGE panels have numerous quality problems and Samsung refuses to acknowledge problems or refund. And Hong Kong people are very good at complaining.........but to no avail.

    Vince

  • 02-15-2010 11:41 AM In reply to

    • KMA
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on 08-13-2007
    • Posts 101
    • Silver Member

    Re: BeoVision 10 bad panels

    Interesting.

    I just had a chat with my dealer about the backlight issue, and according to them, currently B&O's position on the matter is that clouding is NOT a defect, but "something common to the EdgeLED panel type".

    As such, apparently B&O does not currently service the panels that have poor backlight uniformity.

    In any case, I am having the backlight clouding photographed by a professional, carry on with my complaint through my dealer, and will take it to any level necessary to get it fixed. That includes buying a new panel and having it exchanged as an operation not covered by the warranty, at my own expense

    Complaint to European Consumer Centre is now in consideration, and ultimately I'm gonna look into ADR (Alternative Dispute Resolution) procedure in EU. Perhaps in the long run B&O will change their position on the matter.

    In the meanwhile, I'll get more ambient lighting to my living room to hide the backlight problem. A good excuse to get new lights! (A little humor helps here.)

    [EDITED after chatting some more with my dealer.]

    KMA

    Current setup: BeoVision 10-46 (grey speaker cover, AR, motorized stand) with Apple TV 2 (FireCore), Sony BDP-S780, Mac Mini, BeoLab 11 (silver), Beo5, BeoSound 8 (red speaker covers). Accessories: A8 Earphones, wine bottle coasters.


    B&O product history, in chronological order since 1990, after the onset of the treaded BeoVirus (I tend to upgrade/change my setup "infrequently"): BeoSystem 2500 (with blue speaker covers), BeoLink 5000, BeoSystem 7000 (complete; silver/black), BeoLink 7000, RedLine 60.2, BeoVox Penta, BeoVision MX4000 (black, motorized floor stand), BeoCord VX5000 (black), BeoSystem 4500 (complete), BeoCenter 9500, BeoLab 8000, BeoLab 6000, BeoVision Avant (original, 28" AR, VHS, green), BeoCenter 2300, BeoVision 3-32 (grey speaker frame, AR, motorised cabinet), DVD1 (grey), BeoCord V8000 (grey), Beo4, BeoSound Ouverture (w/ floor cabinet stand), BeoVision Avant RF (grey, 32", AR, VHS), BeoSound 9000, BeoCenter AV5 (blue), BeoVision 1 (yellow, motorized floor stand), Beo1, BeoSound Century (yellow), BeoCenter 1 (blue, AR, motorized floor stand), BeoSound 1 (silver, floor stand), BeoVision Avant RF DVD (grey, 32", AR), BeoVision 7-32 MkI (AR, motorized floor stand), BeoLab 3 (black), BeoSound 2, BeoVision 10-40 (grey speaker cover, AR, motorized stand).

  • 02-16-2010 1:04 PM In reply to

    • RWST
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on 01-12-2010
    • Amsterdam, NL
    • Posts 50
    • Bronze Member

    Re: BeoVision 10 bad panels

    Hi KMA,

    Thank you for your entire feedback on this matter. I am more than interested in "your" case, as I am on the verge of getting the BV10-46".

    Regarding your dealer's reply, it's a rather unsatifactory answer to my opinion. I will check on this issue with both my dealers in Amsterdam and Zurich and see what's their reply. I assume you have yet to receive an official answer from B&O Customer Service.

    It's astonishing that a LCD screen in a price range of a BV10 from B&O or from any brand from that matter, could be defected by backlighting defaults. Especially from a luxury/prestigious brand as B&O, one should expect a flawless product, manufactured with the highest precision and highest quality material. On the latter, it is obviously not the case in your situation. If "clouding" is a "common" issue with EdgeLED panels then a company with the image of B&O should not even considder manufacturing EdgeLED products, in other words; As B&O, you produce high quality top of the range products or you DON'T! It is for this reasoning, that I have difficulty in accepting your dealer's reply. Even more, I doubt if this is B&O's official stance concerning the matter.

    Anyways, I will certainly discuss warrant/return policy with my dealer in order to avoid a situation like yours. Considering the estimated price for the BV10-46", I demand/expect a more than decent product, worthy of carrying the name B&O, but even more so worthy of the money being paid for!

    As for you, KMA, best of luck in pursuing your case, and for starting this thread so others like me can learn and hopefully avoid ending up in a similar situation.

    Regards

  • 02-16-2010 1:44 PM In reply to

    Re: BeoVision 10 bad panels

    RWST:
    If "clouding" is a "common" issue with EdgeLED panels then a company with the image of B&O should not even considder manufacturing EdgeLED products, in other words; As B&O, you produce high quality top of the range products or you DON'T!

    Very well put... Yes -  thumbs up

    Short of a couple fantastic products... something they have seemingly lost sight of the last decade!

    • B&o bottle opener
  • 02-16-2010 4:19 PM In reply to

    • KMA
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on 08-13-2007
    • Posts 101
    • Silver Member

    Re: BeoVision 10 bad panels

    RWST:

    Hi KMA,

    Thank you for your entire feedback on this matter. I am more than interested in "your" case, as I am on the verge of getting the BV10-46".

    Regarding your dealer's reply, it's a rather unsatifactory answer to my opinion. I will check on this issue with both my dealers in Amsterdam and Zurich and see what's their reply. I assume you have yet to receive an official answer from B&O Customer Service.

    It's astonishing that a LCD screen in a price range of a BV10 from B&O or from any brand from that matter, could be defected by backlighting defaults. Especially from a luxury/prestigious brand as B&O, one should expect a flawless product, manufactured with the highest precision and highest quality material. On the latter, it is obviously not the case in your situation. If "clouding" is a "common" issue with EdgeLED panels then a company with the image of B&O should not even considder manufacturing EdgeLED products, in other words; As B&O, you produce high quality top of the range products or you DON'T! It is for this reasoning, that I have difficulty in accepting your dealer's reply. Even more, I doubt if this is B&O's official stance concerning the matter.

    Anyways, I will certainly discuss warrant/return policy with my dealer in order to avoid a situation like yours. Considering the estimated price for the BV10-46", I demand/expect a more than decent product, worthy of carrying the name B&O, but even more so worthy of the money being paid for!

    As for you, KMA, best of luck in pursuing your case, and for starting this thread so others like me can learn and hopefully avoid ending up in a similar situation.

    Regards

    Hi RWST,

    Actually, I did receive a response from B&O Customer Service, Denmark, yesterday.

    Their response was marked confidential, with a legal notice, so I cannot disclose its contents here.

    Naturally, I am pursuing the matter further with my dealer, and through ECC if necessary. 

    Frankly, over the years, I have owned a couple of Sonys and Samsungs (even the edgeLed 40B7000 model), and none have ever come even close to what I see in my BeoVision 10 in terms of backlight defect. The Samsung B7000 I had exchanged by Samsung Prestige Service twice, due to corner light bleed (another form of backlight defect). It is amazing that whereas Samsung readily exchanged the sets as "defective", with a couple of phone calls, a premium brand has yet to offer to do so, regardless of the extent of my complaint on the matter.

    Hopefully B&O will eventually come through and remedy the situation.

    In the meanwhile, I'm posting 4 pictures of the backlight clouding of my BeoVision 10 in the next post:

    2 are taken from a video "black" screen (quotation marks are really called for here), one with ambient room lighting (three lamps on in the room, and wall and other reflections can be seen in this) and the other in near dark, with only natural city light coming in from the windows at night (only the backlight as the room light source).

    The other 2, which show the clouding when viewing actual material, are taken of a scene from the movie "Dare Devil". Again, one is taken in near dark (same conditions as above) and the other is taken with three lamps on in the evening, i.e. normal viewing conditions.

    The photos are taken with neutral ISO settings, close to that of the sensitivity of the human eye.

    KMA

    Current setup: BeoVision 10-46 (grey speaker cover, AR, motorized stand) with Apple TV 2 (FireCore), Sony BDP-S780, Mac Mini, BeoLab 11 (silver), Beo5, BeoSound 8 (red speaker covers). Accessories: A8 Earphones, wine bottle coasters.


    B&O product history, in chronological order since 1990, after the onset of the treaded BeoVirus (I tend to upgrade/change my setup "infrequently"): BeoSystem 2500 (with blue speaker covers), BeoLink 5000, BeoSystem 7000 (complete; silver/black), BeoLink 7000, RedLine 60.2, BeoVox Penta, BeoVision MX4000 (black, motorized floor stand), BeoCord VX5000 (black), BeoSystem 4500 (complete), BeoCenter 9500, BeoLab 8000, BeoLab 6000, BeoVision Avant (original, 28" AR, VHS, green), BeoCenter 2300, BeoVision 3-32 (grey speaker frame, AR, motorised cabinet), DVD1 (grey), BeoCord V8000 (grey), Beo4, BeoSound Ouverture (w/ floor cabinet stand), BeoVision Avant RF (grey, 32", AR, VHS), BeoSound 9000, BeoCenter AV5 (blue), BeoVision 1 (yellow, motorized floor stand), Beo1, BeoSound Century (yellow), BeoCenter 1 (blue, AR, motorized floor stand), BeoSound 1 (silver, floor stand), BeoVision Avant RF DVD (grey, 32", AR), BeoVision 7-32 MkI (AR, motorized floor stand), BeoLab 3 (black), BeoSound 2, BeoVision 10-40 (grey speaker cover, AR, motorized stand).

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