Question:

IS the sound from a lossless CD played on BS5 better than lossless on a Mac Mini if both are using the optical output, thus avoiding the D/A?

How about with a CD ripped into 128k mp3?

(this isn't a trick, I really want an opinion on it)

Edit: Also this is my setup.  As I use the RCA cables to go from the Mini to the BS4, ML to go everywhere else, and my hearing isn't spectacular, and I listen to rock music where it just doesn't matter anyway, I think the above questions are totally moot for me.  I'm just curious.  Also, I think that with my particular setup, the iPad should work wonders just with what's currently available (remote.app, Plex, Linkplayer, BM-Link, Snatch, any of the above should get it done) and would only make life even easier if a couple of new B&O specific apps come to the iPhone.

Setup: http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/5971/bosetup.jpg

TripEnglish:

Puncher:

TripEnglish:

 

Sound Quality: - you'll never begin to approach the sound quality produced by the BeoSound 5. The sound-card hardware and decompression algorithms are stellar.

 

Really? Perhaps you can expand on how this is  - if most store their music in uncompressed format then the "stellar" decompression algorithms add nothing to the proceedings. The soundcard hardware is based around a $5 D/A converter from Analog Devices which gives a very reasonable to good performance but I've never heard it described before as "stellar".

I think that the right externally connected converter could in fact quite easily approach the sound quality of the BM5 and, I'm also reasonably certain, surpass it. 

I think we should be a little more considered in our claims.

 

Excellent point, Puncher. You should, indeed, be a little more considered in your claims. While many here on these boards may store their music in a lossless format, the majority of users actually store a large portion of their music in compressed formats. Not everyone wants to devote the time and energy to grooming the perfect collection and so a device that can cope with a variety of formats is a real asset to our clients. Building a platform that required the use of lossless only would be foolish as it's a worthless format in any other device (generally large and incapable of embedding meta-data).

So I've had several side by sides with an AppleTV with an outboard DAC and I think the term "lipstick on a pig" about sums it up. There's certainly a benefit objectively, but when we're placing it directly against the BeoSound 5, it's not a real contest. 

I agree that I'd like to have a wireless tablet version of the BeoSound 5, so there's no argument there. My input on this thread is strictly in answer to the AppleTV & iPad being paired up as some sort of competitor. It's just too flimsy an experience and by the time you put the money and effort into every correcting every flaw in pair, you've bought a BeoSound 5. Especially if you place a value on your time, which I do. 

 

 

OK - perhaps you can explain how B&O's decompression algorithms are superior to others for those that store their music in a lossy format.

When you say "So I've had several side by sides with an AppleTV with an outboard DAC and........................There's certainly a benefit objectively.................." do you mean that the audio quality was a match for the BM5? My point was solely regarding your claim that you would never approach the sound quality of the BM5 with an external DAC, I never made any claims about the "pig" that was singing -  remember the BM5 isn't exactly a thing of beauty, the beautiful BS5 is a glorified mouse+display and doesn't make a peep by itself!!

Duplicate - please delete.

When we replaced our Avant with a BV7 MKIII I immediately noticed that the sound was much better when listening to music. I posted a question here about that and someone said it was due to the very sophisticated processor in the BV7. So my question is, is a DAC of any benefit when the system has a BV7 MKIII in it? 

In other words, Beoport is connected to iMac and then Masterlink to Beosound 3000/BV7. Where would the DAC go in the system and how would it benefit anything?  Am confused. Thanks!

Or another question, how does sound from an iMac to Beoport to main system compare to Apple TV to the system and how does it compare to Beosound 5 sound?

Also, to clarify, if the music on the iMac is in lossless format does that make a difference?

TRip makes me laugh when he says that Apple TV is far inferior in terms of sound quality compared to a BS5/BM5:

-Some people says that their aac files from itunes are badly reproduced by bm5, the quality is better with iTunes... (so the codec doen't seem to be stellar)
If you're a Mac user, you should add that there is no simple way to put lossless files in a bm5, as the only lossless files it supports (appart from WAV which is archaic) is WMA. So I doubt that the "stellar algorithms" of the BM5 give better result with lossy aac files than an Apple TV with lossless...

-Now considering the poor audio quality : that's right, the D/A converter of the Apple TV is poor... But connect an Apple TV to a B&O TV in HDMI, and you will only use a "stellar" D/A converter.

In conclusion, you can have an Apple TV or a Mac Mini(=BM5)+an iPad with the Remote software(=BS5)+ a BV8 40(for stellar sound)... For approximately the same price as a BS5/BM5 system : great!! And with this system, you have full B&O sound, and a free TV and stereo speaker (and a huge iPod touch)... Isn't that awesome?

And after you've turned it on you can read a book on your iPad.

mbee:

TRip makes me laugh when he says that Apple TV is far inferior in terms of sound quality compared to a BS5/BM5:

-Some people says (who are these people? Are you one of them? If so please state it clearly) that their aac files from itunes are badly reproduced by bm5, the quality is better with iTunes... (so the codec doen't seem to be stellar) (So with no evidence cited, you've decided the codec "doesn't seem to be stellar". Wonder how that would play in a primary school book report. Oh well, good enough for the internet.)

If you're a Mac user, you should add that there is no simple way to put lossless files in a bm5, as the only lossless files it supports (appart from WAV which is archaic) is WMA. So I doubt that the "stellar algorithms" of the BM5 give better result with lossy aac files than an Apple TV with lossless... (The premise here is that the Apple Lossless is a worthwhile audio container. It simply isn't. The format locks you into a single platform, occupies more space than a lossy file. The lossy file isn't an issue if you play it on an iPod or computer speaker, and if you use the BeoSoun5, 320kbps MP3 sounds nearly as good as a CD thanks to the patented decompression algorithm and sound card. So you can worry about difficult lossless files, but most store demos make a point of demonstrating sound from a 320kbps MP3 played on the BeoSound 5 versus the same CD from a 9000. The results are amazing and often aid in the sale of the system. MP3s are more portable and work across all platforms. Boutique formats limit the flexibility of your collection and are time consuming to convert down the road.) 

-Now considering the poor audio quality : that's right, the D/A converter of the Apple TV is poor... But connect an Apple TV to a B&O TV in HDMI, and you will only use a "stellar" D/A converter. (Oh! So I have to connect the AppleTV to a television system! So the price just went up! Alright, so the AppleTV is a worthless box on its own. Gotcha.)

In conclusion, you can have an Apple TV or a Mac Mini(=BM5)+an iPad with the Remote software(=BS5)+ a BV8 40(for stellar sound)... For approximately the same price as a BS5/BM5 system : great!! And with this system, you have full B&O sound, and a free TV and stereo speaker (and a huge iPod touch)... Isn't that awesome? (No actually=)

The AppleTV holds less content, requires streaming when content exceeds capacity, and attaches your music to an account which, if changed, causes the content to be deleted. It also pauses, hangs, stutters, resets itself, etc. The iPod/iPhone as a remote is laughable. Constantly loses connection with library, iPhone goes to sleep and has to be woken back up and then the connection to the library established and then after all that, I HAVE OVER 1,100 ALBUMS!!! Scrolling through my collection on an iPhone just isn't practical.

It comes down to taste and standards. If you'll put up with AppleTV as the main access to your music collection in your main listening area, I'm shocked you're even here on these boards. It's a miserable experience and even if we weren't matching it up against B&O, I'd choose a WD Media, Lacie Cinema, TViX (which I hate), or any other number of less fussy boxes that simply give you a big list of your content. The Apple TV is terrifice until you actually have to use it. That's when the trouble starts.

 

get a mac mini then , rip your cd's at lossless and use the ipad to control stuff

still miles cheaper and vastly more versatile than the bno set up

I wish I understood the format issues and DAC issues well enough to have an opinion LOL

I' sorry if it's just me, but I've searched the site and B&O's and can't find any more details of the ".................. patented decompression algorithm and sound card" in the BM5 that has so impressed Trip. If anyone can expand on this I'd be interested to read more.

Puncher:

I' sorry if it's just me, but I've searched the site and B&O's and can't find any more details of the ".................. patented decompression algorithm and sound card" in the BM5 that has so impressed Trip. If anyone can expand on this I'd be interested to read more.

Totally fair. Like many (I'm guessing you, too, Puncher), the precise software details are way out of my depth. I'm looking at this from a "what does it do" standpoint more than a "how does it work." 

So my understanding is that our decompression algorithm is like the Maya Spaciousness Algorithm. I've heard the Maya product as well as our own and the result was nearly identical. I have no reason to believe that anyone from Maya was involved directly, but I think that even some light reading can yield volumes on the importance of the decompression tactics used by various products.

I'll see if I can dig out any more details on where our algorithm was developed (I doubt it was in-house, like ALT, ICE, etc.) and any interesting facts about it. 

Puncher:

I' sorry if it's just me, but I've searched the site and B&O's and can't find any more details of the ".................. patented decompression algorithm and sound card" in the BM5 that has so impressed Trip. If anyone can expand on this I'd be interested to read more.

I could expand on this subject a little.  I have looked for and never found any information on the BM5 DAC anywhere.  However I do have a BM5 and can say that CDs ripped in the Windows Media lossless format do sound much better than the same CDs played on my Beocenter 2.  I haven't had a hearing test to check if my hearing was okay lately.  I think my hearing is fine but my wife may disagree.

Separately I also have iTunes setup in which all the files are Apple Lossless format.  I use a separate DAC that is connected by toslink optical cable to an Apple TV.  There are RCA type connectors from Apple TV to the DAC and then from the DAC to the AUX input of BC2.  Sometimes the music is streamed from the iMac through the Apple TV or played directly from the Apple TV hard disk.  I think the sound is far superior to BM5.  The difference is the DAC.  This is not an unusual setup.  Many on this forum do this.

I do love the Beosound 5 and Beomaster 5 combination though.  Its looks cools and is fun to use.  It is a true B&O product is every sense.  Ultimately I guess I am addicted to both Apple and B&O products which might be the reason I have both setups.  Crazy huh?

The only reason one needs "decompression algorithms" is that the storage capacity in the BM5 is limited, I guess.

The best solution is to have an external storage device, such as a NAS (Network Attached Server), and then to have all one's music on that in lossless or high-resolution. Trip prefaces his "stellar audio" comment with a jibe about only a rare few wanting to store their music in lossless - but that's no longer the case. The drives in computers are very fast now, and people have ample storage space and no longer need to compress their audio.

As Puncher writes, it's a fairly standard Analog Devices DAC that's in the BM.

But B&O have made quite a bit of work with getting the most out of compressed files, as evidenced with BeoSound 2 and BeoSound 4 (where the SD-card facility is at 192kbps, as top resolution.)

AppleTV has audio output at Redbook quality - 16/44.1. Which is CD-quality and which accommodates lossless without any trouble whatsoever. Stereophile have clearly demonstrated that Airport Express porting of music, via Wireless, is completely bit-transparent. (John Atkinson reviewed the first Airport Express units - the wireless network from Apple has been improved significantly since then, as regards drop-outs, etc. Can't remember when I last had one.)

The iPad will offer extremely elegant hands on control of one's sources, as well as the ability to surf for cover-info, background info on artists, or for that sake being able to read a book or magazine while you're listening. I'd use the HDMI port on the ATV for playback - what you then get will not take a back seat to anything else your B&O audio processor is capable of delivering.

If you wish to play high-resolution music files, you can use a Mac mini, and an external DAC.

Sports Illustrated have made a demo of how they intend to use the iPad.

And in the french forum there are some people complaining about quality of audio decoding of aac 320 on BM5...

Trip, maybe you were offensed by my post, but I didn't meant to offense you... We simply have two different conclusion on this subject :
Considering the price of the solution, I prefer connecting an Apple TV (music only... for movies it's way too restrictive)/Mac Mini to a Beovision and controling it via iPad than buying a BM5/BS5. I know the interface of the BS5 is better for music, I think the Apple+B&O solution has an overall better value for money than the full B&O solution, while giving the same audio quality (as all the D/A conversion is done by B&O components).
The storage space is simply not an argument for the BM5 : I will without doubt replace the AppleTV/Mac Mini hard drive for something bigger, but I will hesitate about dismounting an expensive BM5 to replace the 500Gb drive (which is not very much storage space for the price).
The streaming argument is also not a viable argument : the BS5 is also made to read remote NAS content. And if you have some problems with wireless (which I never had, even if I'm living in Paris with around 50 wifi networks available around my flat), you can use wired connexions 90% of the time.

I'm convinced by the arguments for the BS5, but for someone who deals with a mix of Apple+B&O solutions everyday like me, the BS5 is just not enough. I think it's just a wonderful product for people a bit older than me maybe...

TripEnglish:

Puncher:

I' sorry if it's just me, but I've searched the site and B&O's and can't find any more details of the ".................. patented decompression algorithm and sound card" in the BM5 that has so impressed Trip. If anyone can expand on this I'd be interested to read more.

Totally fair. Like many (I'm guessing you, too, Puncher), the precise software details are way out of my depth. I'm looking at this from a "what does it do" standpoint more than a "how does it work." 

So my understanding is that our decompression algorithm is like the Maya Spaciousness Algorithm. I've heard the Maya product as well as our own and the result was nearly identical. I have no reason to believe that anyone from Maya was involved directly, but I think that even some light reading can yield volumes on the importance of the decompression tactics used by various products.

I'll see if I can dig out any more details on where our algorithm was developed (I doubt it was in-house, like ALT, ICE, etc.) and any interesting facts about it. 

OK - I'm interested in what you find - I was under the inpression they were using the basic WMA codecs that come bundled with XP/mediaplayer.

(btw I'm an Electronics Engineer and, although I don't do DSP everyday, I have read the books and can follow the odd circuit schematic or two)

I'll definately share whatever I can find out. In the (seemingly endless) lead-up to the BeoSound 5, the decompression was hyped internally as part of the magic. When we finally got to sit down with working units I was handily impressed. It's admittedly been mentioned little to not-at-all since release. Maybe a minor point in marketing, but in my showroom I have an iPod docked to a BeoSound 9000 & a BeoSound 5 all in one room. I can play the original CD, the ripped track off the iPod and the same ripped track off the BeoSound 5 and any questions about the viability of digital music as a worthwhile "high-end" investment are instantly answered, so I'm a true believer not just in our product, but in taking decompression and DAC seriously as a means to achieving outstanding results. 

Soundproof, I think that your point on storage / versus sophistication in decompression has limited merit. If we were a "audiophile" company like McIntosh, I'd say that this standpoint would make more sense. Clients who are looking for such systems are ones who are very focused on their music collection, equipment, and the time they spend using and interacting with it all. 

Our clients, on the other hand, are very diverse in their usage of our products and only about a 5th, in my experience, could really be placed anywhere near the audiophile camp. So our clients have scattered CDs, downloaded media, and ripped media often in equal measures. I can't very well tell them that my product is going to place such strict demands on the grooming of their collection that most of their music won't sound very good. I have to be able to say, "if you've carefully compiled your music and tended lovingly to the format, meta-data, etc. this thing will be wonderful, but if you've not dedicated as much time to such things, it still has a tremendous amount to offer in terms of access and performance."

TripEnglish:

Maybe a minor point in marketing, but in my showroom I have an iPod docked to a BeoSound 9000 & a BeoSound 5 all in one room. I can play the original CD, the ripped track off the iPod and the same ripped track off the BeoSound 5 and any questions about the viability of digital music as a worthwhile "high-end" investment are instantly answered, so I'm a true believer not just in our product, but in taking decompression and DAC seriously as a means to achieving outstanding results. 

I agree that in this setup, the Beosound 5 is definitely superior.  Beosound 5 is the best B&O music system especially for people who are willing to spend the money for something that works well without much effort.  This is what I would expect from B&O.  Its the reason I purchased a Beosound 5.

I have iTunes but it is a lot of work.  For Beosound 5, you easily rip the CD and the system does everything else.  There are no worries about meta data or format.  

linder:

TripEnglish:

Maybe a minor point in marketing, but in my showroom I have an iPod docked to a BeoSound 9000 & a BeoSound 5 all in one room. I can play the original CD, the ripped track off the iPod and the same ripped track off the BeoSound 5 and any questions about the viability of digital music as a worthwhile "high-end" investment are instantly answered, so I'm a true believer not just in our product, but in taking decompression and DAC seriously as a means to achieving outstanding results. 

I agree that in this setup, the Beosound 5 is definitely superior.  Beosound 5 is the best B&O music system especially for people who are willing to spend the money for something that works well without much effort.  This is what I would expect from B&O.  Its the reason I purchased a Beosound 5.

I have iTunes but it is a lot of work.  For Beosound 5, you easily rip the CD and the system does everything else.  There are no worries about meta data or format.  

The audio from an iPod is not exactly mind blowing, but running something bit for bit from a, say, Mac Mini must be as good as anything else... If used as a transporter.

Trip, is it really so that very few B&O users are audiophiles? I'm just wondering since I don't have any experience. It's kinda sad. Sure I know a lot of Audiophiles are more into VOODOO than actual music and sound quality, with moon rocks and whatnot.

I consider my self an Audiophile, and I must say, the BL5's cater to all of my needs.

It's true. I don't know if it's "sad, but true," but that's been my experience. 

Now I'm not saying that sound quality is of no importance to our clients or that they don't come to a greater appreciation of it as part of the ownership experience, but I'm talking about real capital-A Audiophiles. These are the people who spend $2,500 on 6 foot cables and worry about invisible energy fields, or at least aspire to worry about invisible energy fields. These people will lavish time and money on some of the most visually unappealing and impossible to operate audio boxes chasing down a ghost that very probably doesn't even exist. They're ideological, obstinate, and would rather talk about equipment than listen to music. In my general experience, they're among the most difficult "enthusiasts" to tolerate.

No, we deal with people who are, by and large, making some attempt in all fronts at living well. Either them or their surrogates (designers, architects, house managers, etc.) are looking for options that are visually tasteful, easy to use, perform competitively, and are well supported by local agents. We're just about the only brand that can confidently tick off all those boxes.

That's one of the reasons that the AppleTV is such a pitiful product. It's about the only thing I've ever encountered that's so difficult to use I've had to stop installing them. They simply require too much fuss & maintenance and don't pass muster with our clients.

Andreas,  I guess I should confess as to why my iTunes setup sounds so good.  I use a Bel Canto Dac.  

http://www.belcantodesign.com/Belcanto_eOne_DAC3_Digital_Audio_Converter.html

in short:

If you listen to MP3s or AAC or Apple Losless on a 5000 Euro Hifi-System you can throw the Hifi-System into the trash. You don't need it.

Apple TV etc. is for listening to background music or for partys but not for serious listening.

You can only choose

- CD Audio
- WAV file (linear PCM, CD quality)
- WMA losless (Microsoft professional audio, CD quality)
- Highresolution PCM files (SACD etc.)

for real audio pleasure. That's why I like e.g. the Beosound 5; it even plays WAV (but without the luxury of file tagging).

Apple is for fun, and the iPad will be my Internet-Couch-COmpanion :-) Nothing more.

Ok - I'm trying to get a summary of the arguments clear in my head!

Am I right in thinking that:

1. For pure sound quality Trip believes that the Beomaster 5/Beosound 5 solution is way ahead?

2. Others believe there may be no difference and that the iPad may enhance multi room access to a central digital music collection?

If I've got the above right then I have a couple of questions ...

1. How do you access the Beomaster digital archive in a multi room setup?  

2. How does the iPad enhance the existing solutions which utilise an iPod touch (other than being a bigger screen)?

The access to the BeoMaster 5's content in link rooms is currently an Achilles Heal for the BeoSound 5. While you can certainly listen to N.MUSIC & N.RADIO, you can't browse the collection, but simply advance through tracks. We have set up a few workarounds for clients, but none really satisfy me personally.

It has been openly discussed, however, that the link room solution is forthcoming and was, perhaps, pushed back just a bit due to the BeoVision 10-46 being added. I don't have nearly as much info on this device as I'd like to, but I feel fairly confident that it will complete the set. 

Amusing - maybe this is the time to point out that Mac's are the most common professional platforms for those who create the music we listen to? Used as DAWs (Digital Audio Workstations).

Trip's points about sound quality are disingenuous. If you wish to port absolute top notch audio from a Mac, it's actually very simple, they are built for the purpose. Apple pioneered the Core Audio platform, in order to make it possible for audio engineers to avoid any conversions, resamples or whatever to their sound files, as they were transferred from the Mac.

Now - if you connect a pair of B&O speakers (excellent speakers, by the way) to the minijack out of a Mac (or iPod), and then run a comparison between that sound and what you would get from a properly conveyed audio signal - then you are engaging in smart salesmanship, to put it mildly.
Many factors need to be considered before that comparison is valid. Are the tone settings comparable? Is the sound pressure level comparable? Etc.

I am first in line the day the BeoSound 5 interface makes it simple for me to control a Network Attached Server with my music on it, but I'm not buying the argument that the sound ported from a BeoMaster 5 is superior to what you can get out of a Mac mini, for instance. And even when it comes to the Apple TV, one needs to realize that it can access the music in lossless lying on a NAS, as it's streamed through WiFi or Ethernet, to the ATV, and then sent from this unit either through the optical S/PDIF Out or HDMI, to your audio processor.

Quite an excellent solution, but it's not "push a button and you're done." You need to set it up, and you need how to keep it running, something that many prefer not having to bother with.

(Several companies are offering ways of getting unconverted digital files straight out of an iPod, should one wish to do that; it's extremely simple to port Core Audio from a Mac to an external DAC, etc.)

I am trying to understand the various views here so let me ask this question:

The music goes from our iMac (where it is lossless) to Beoport box to Masterlink to BV7 and Beosound 3000 then to our Beolab 9s. Am I correct that a DAC would go between the iMac and the Beoport? And if so, what does it do and how does it affect what the BV7/BS3000 do with the sound when it reaches them? Does the DAC change the sound the BV7/BS3000 will output?