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ARCHIVED FORUM -- April 2007 to March 2012
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This is the first Archived Forum which was active between 17th April 2007 and 1st March February 2012

 

Latest post 01-23-2010 2:37 PM by vikinger. 83 replies.
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  • 01-15-2010 11:34 PM In reply to

    • Dave
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    Re: The MADE IN DENMARK product thread :-)

    I want to know facts. Do the factory workers in Czech get paid the same wage as the workers in Denmark? I think that is what is relevant here isn't it.

    There's no difference in the actual products manufactured in Czech. Only different words on a label.

    “Quality is never an accident; it is always the result of intelligent effort.”

    Your health and well-being comes first and fore-most.

     

     

  • 01-16-2010 1:16 AM In reply to

    Re: The MADE IN DENMARK product thread :-)

    The guy that designed all the stuff we have isn't Danish.

    None of the panels in the TVs are Danish.

     

    I'd rather have a well made product that does what I want it to than worry about where it was assembled.  The price is really only relevant when it comes to if you want to pay said price for the product.  If you feel it's not worth it then don't buy it.  It's not really that hard.

  • 01-16-2010 1:58 AM In reply to

    • TWG
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    Re: The MADE IN DENMARK product thread :-)

    j0hnbarker:

    linder:

    There are always exceptions.  I just looked at the box from a made in Japan VX5000 VCR and it says 'By appointment to the royal Danish court'.  I did know when I purchased this VCR that it was not made in Denmark.

    Why do I still have this VCR I purchased in 1988?  I don't really know but it still looks cool.  

    I'm 30 so not old enough to have purchased anything in my collection from new with the exception of my RF Avant, but all of my stuff is made in Denmark and I appreciate that greatly - which is why I don't own any of the stuff made in Japan. I'd actually quite like a Beosystem 10 because it looks nice, but I can't bring myself to buy one as I know the B&O content is minimal. I just managed to let an MX1500 through the door simply because I don't have room for a bigger MX in the bedroom, but as soon as I do, this cuckoo in my nest is off and I'll get a proper Danish MX.

    Having spent a good few years painstakingly assembling a collection of vintage B&O, and having the majority of it repaired in time-consuming and resource-draining fashion, I really value the traditions of the company. Great if you don't care where it's assembled, but surely you should feel a bit cheesed off if B&O charge you the premium for Danish assembly??

     


    I agree 100%. I'm that young, too and I do feel the same!

    If I pay the full Bang & Olufsen price for a product that is only branded with the danish name but assembled etc. in Czech or worse it smells a little bit like fraud to me! Sure, B&O can't develop and produce every single chip or LCD-Panel, but the whole package can easily be manufactured in Denmark!

    And you're right: This seems that I won't buy anymore B&O products in the future if they source the production all  out. There are are dozen other companies that want my money, produce realy high end quality goods and DO manufacture in their home country (like german T+A, japanesese Accuphase etc.).

    So let's hope for the CEO that they don't have only Dollar signs in their eyes!

  • 01-16-2010 2:07 AM In reply to

    • TWG
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    Re: The MADE IN DENMARK product thread :-)

    dilznik:

    The guy that designed all the stuff we have isn't Danish.

    None of the panels in the TVs are Danish.

     

    I'd rather have a well made product that does what I want it to than worry about where it was assembled.  The price is really only relevant when it comes to if you want to pay said price for the product.  If you feel it's not worth it then don't buy it.  It's not really that hard.


    I think you don't get the point: B&O claims to be a traditional company with strong values etc. which always made very good stuff in Denmark. When they're moving their production to Czech for example, they are not traditional they don't want to make even more money out of their products; nothing more! So to the customers it looks like a kind of fraud!

    Everybody knows, that ONE company can NOT develop and produce every single item of its product (like LCD panels, microchips etc.), but the main assembly, production and development (the B&O casings, the user-interface, the aluminium and plastic parts etc.) HAS to be made in Denmark!

    It is clear, that for example Porsche does NOT have a plant for microchips and sensors etc. and that's not the point!

  • 01-16-2010 2:37 AM In reply to

    Re: The MADE IN DENMARK product thread :-)

    TWG:

    I think you don't get the point: B&O claims to be a traditional company with strong values etc. which always made very good stuff in Denmark. When they're moving their production to Czech for example, they are not traditional they don't want to make even more money out of their products; nothing more! So to the customers it looks like a kind of fraud!

    Okay, I find that reasonable.  So they can have some cheap labor somewhere assemble the boards, press the metal, blow the glass, solder the chips and then send it all to Denmark to assemble?  I have no problems with that since that would also reduce costs while keeping the spirit of Made in Denmark.  Then you wouldn't need a factory in DK, you'd just need a guy assembling and two guys boxing it all up and shipping it out.  In fact, they could do that and call it handmade.  I can live with that, no problem.

  • 01-16-2010 4:41 AM In reply to

    • TWG
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    Re: The MADE IN DENMARK product thread :-)

    dilznik:

    TWG:

    I think you don't get the point: B&O claims to be a traditional company with strong values etc. which always made very good stuff in Denmark. When they're moving their production to Czech for example, they are not traditional they don't want to make even more money out of their products; nothing more! So to the customers it looks like a kind of fraud!

    Okay, I find that reasonable.  So they can have some cheap labor somewhere assemble the boards, press the metal, blow the glass, solder the chips and then send it all to Denmark to assemble?  I have no problems with that since that would also reduce costs while keeping the spirit of Made in Denmark.  Then you wouldn't need a factory in DK, you'd just need a guy assembling and two guys boxing it all up and shipping it out.  In fact, they could do that and call it handmade.  I can live with that, no problem.

    Fine that we understand each other :-)
    But I still think the metal casings, design and main assembly etc. HAS TO STAY in Denmark.
    Why should a Czech or Chinese worker identify itself with the tradition of B&O? There's no reason for it, it's just a job.
    Personaly that is a difference for me and for the quality of the product at the end of the assembly line. It may sound funny but there's a difference between a unpersonal product without any "relationship" to it and a more personal product assembled from a worker who has some kind of relationship to the product or the company and loves his job. The endresult in the 2nd case will be MUCH better.

  • 01-16-2010 5:15 AM In reply to

    Re: The MADE IN DENMARK product thread :-)

    TWG:

    Why should a Czech or Chinese worker identify itself with the tradition of B&O? There's no reason for it, it's just a job.
    Personaly that is a difference for me and for the quality of the product at the end of the assembly line. It may sound funny but there's a difference between a unpersonal product without any "relationship" to it and a more personal product assembled from a worker who has some kind of relationship to the product or the company and loves his job. The endresult in the 2nd case will be MUCH better.

    Mayyyyyyybe.  I have my doubts that some Danish guy who gets the metal working job might have some sudden burst of national and corporate pride if he was a lazy git in the first place.  Then he's just be a lazy git who got himself a job cutting metal.  It takes more than just having a job at a place in your homeland for a company of your homeland to make the average worker excited.

    If he was a big fan of B&O in the first place and it was his dream job then great.  You're in luck.  But what if there was some guy in China who would pee his pants with glee if he got a job for B&O cutting metal?  He'd probably be a good worker and do a good job too.

  • 01-16-2010 5:17 AM In reply to

    • Puncher
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    Re: The MADE IN DENMARK product thread :-)

    Earlier I mentioned socio-political reasons for maintaining a manufacturing industry. An interesting side question that arises is -

    Is a publicly traded company's primary responsibility to it's shareholders or it's customers?

    Generally speaking, you aren't learning much if your lips are moving.

  • 01-16-2010 8:23 AM In reply to

    • saf
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    • Joined on 04-17-2007
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    Re: The MADE IN DENMARK product thread :-)

    Puncher:

    Is a publicly traded company's primary responsibility to it's shareholders or it's customers?

    Life is a great balancing act, Puncher: any company finds itself pulled 'simultaniously' in different directions, which are defined by the different interests of its stakeholders (such as shareholders, management and employees eg) but also by the influence of the environment it operates in (such as the socio-political one, indeed).  I'd assume, a customer base is 'just' a part of the latter - forgot to say.  It seems that some companies have been able to keep the balance right for quite a long time - and some haven't...

     

  • 01-16-2010 9:34 AM In reply to

    Re: The MADE IN DENMARK product thread :-)

    I would be disheartened to know the bv10, a £6k tv was just a samsung product in disguise its classic make it cheap in lowcost countries and sell high in posh boutique.

    quality is dropping in motorcars like bmw 3 series and audi are losing quality in last 10 years its the same nearly with all consumer goods there are lower quality and throw away.

    how about factories  in like denmark were conditions are good as well as strong workers representation you dont get that in many other parts of the world its a fall in standards.

    B&O often state there made in denmark high standards when a company gets run by accountants the inevitable happens low cost sourcing.

    its happened before with loads of branded japanese made bno products they always seemed to be the least loved by bno enthusiasts.

    there was an article i read from a factory director how claimed he could make hifi speakers to retail for £200 if made in china were it would be nearly £2000 in europe although i find this hard to believe.

    if bno are going to make entry level products outside denmark then they ought to sell them cheap.

    if you take work outside your own country it always come back to haunt you in lack of employment and expertise in the future.

     

     

     

  • 01-16-2010 10:21 AM In reply to

    Re: The MADE IN DENMARK product thread :-)

    MGBGTV8:

    there was an article i read from a factory director how claimed he could make hifi speakers to retail for £200 if made in china were it would be nearly £2000 in europe although i find this hard to believe

     

    Denmark's electricity is 2.5 times more expensive than Czech electricity, for example.

    http://www.cbs.nl/en-GB/menu/themas/prijzen/publicaties/artikelen/archief/2006/2006-1945-wm.htm

    I for one, support B&O building products in a more cost-effective location.  This ensures the product is either better priced to the consumer or the company gets a higher margin that can ensure its survival.

  • 01-16-2010 3:37 PM In reply to

    Re: The MADE IN DENMARK product thread :-)

    The most inexpensive B&O product has to be the BEO5. It's incredible value for money! At ~ 600 euro it's about 67% cheaper than a Philips top of the line pronto pro. For example, my cousin loves the integration B&O offers, he's an importer to Finland for two high-end speaker brands from Germany, so naturally he uses his "own" products, but he would love to have a Beo5. The extra hassle/expense from programming it to work with his components results in him not buying it. Programming it would cost far more than the remote itself, since he has so much stuff, instead he has a Pronto Pro, and thinking of getting a new one, for about 1300 euro... Thinking Philips is well into the top-notch universal control market with products priced at over 1000 euro for a plastic remote, the Beo5 is great value for money, can't understand why B&O didn't make it user programmable with ready codes or copy function from your existing remote... 

    -Andreas

     

    BLab5, BLab5000, BLab8000, BV10, BS9000, BS3, Beo5, Beo4, BLink1000, BLink5000, BLink7000, A2, A8, Form2

     

     

     

  • 01-16-2010 5:02 PM In reply to

    Re: The MADE IN DENMARK product thread :-)

    bayerische:

    The most inexpensive B&O product has to be the BEO5. It's incredible value for money! At ~ 600 euro it's about 67% cheaper than a Philips top of the line pronto pro. For example, my cousin loves the integration B&O offers, he's an importer to Finland for two high-end speaker brands from Germany, so naturally he uses his "own" products, but he would love to have a Beo5. The extra hassle/expanse from programming it to work with his components results in him not buying it. Programming it would cost far more than the remote itself, since he has so much stuff, instead he has a Pronto Pro, and thinking of getting a new one, for about 1300 euro... Thinking Philips is well into the top-notch universal control market with products priced at over 1000 euro for a plastic remote, the Beo5 is great value for money, can't understand why B&O didn't make it user programmable with ready codes or copy function from your existing remote... 

    The Beo5 is (on paper) a fantastic product.
    As you wrote in your post, a couple of  factors are keeping it from becoming the leading product.

    Honestly I think more of half the beo5 remotes are just fancy paperweights right now.

    I would love to see a beo6 remote in beo4 form factor with besides the usual buttons, a real scroll wheel and a nice little display.
    Off course with wifi connectivity for 2-way connectivity and apps to add further integration, customization and personalization.
    Easy programming like the pronto or logitech for basic use is a given....

    I would gladly pay 1000 euros for that. 

     

  • 01-16-2010 6:34 PM In reply to

    Re: The MADE IN DENMARK product thread :-)

    cooldude:

    bayerische:

    The most inexpensive B&O product has to be the BEO5. It's incredible value for money! At ~ 600 euro it's about 67% cheaper than a Philips top of the line pronto pro. For example, my cousin loves the integration B&O offers, he's an importer to Finland for two high-end speaker brands from Germany, so naturally he uses his "own" products, but he would love to have a Beo5. The extra hassle/expanse from programming it to work with his components results in him not buying it. Programming it would cost far more than the remote itself, since he has so much stuff, instead he has a Pronto Pro, and thinking of getting a new one, for about 1300 euro... Thinking Philips is well into the top-notch universal control market with products priced at over 1000 euro for a plastic remote, the Beo5 is great value for money, can't understand why B&O didn't make it user programmable with ready codes or copy function from your existing remote... 

    The Beo5 is (on paper) a fantastic product.
    As you wrote in your post, a couple of  factors are keeping it from becoming the leading product.

    Honestly I think more of half the beo5 remotes are just fancy paperweights right now.

    I would love to see a beo6 remote in beo4 form factor with besides the usual buttons, a real scroll wheel and a nice little display.
    Off course with wifi connectivity for 2-way connectivity and apps to add further integration, customization and personalization.
    Easy programming like the pronto or logitech for basic use is a given....

    I would gladly pay 1000 euros for that. 

     

    Cooldude, I'm with you, however, my Beo5, thanks to Keith, is not a fancy paperweight, but in use daily much more than my Beo4. Beo4 is for music, Beo5 for everything else. Beolink 1000, 5000 and 7000 are fancy paperweights though. Laughing

    -Andreas

     

    BLab5, BLab5000, BLab8000, BV10, BS9000, BS3, Beo5, Beo4, BLink1000, BLink5000, BLink7000, A2, A8, Form2

     

     

     

  • 01-16-2010 7:24 PM In reply to

    Re: The MADE IN DENMARK product thread :-)

    Puncher:

    I'm really intrigued by the "must be assembled in Denmark or I won't buy it" viewpoint. If I was to be concerned, I would worry more about the source and quality of the components and materials used in the assembly rather than the location of final assembly itself. I can understand the "Danish furniture" analogy but modern electronic assembly has little, if anything, to do with Artisans or Craftsmen - most are, at best, semi-skilled line operators and so it's difficult to see what extra value is added by a Dane screwing the case together rather than a Czech.

    If we assume that the line operators are identically trained and work on duplicate assembly lines, operating to the same quality plans and controls then all that is left is the notional level of "Danishness". What if the Danish manufacturing line was manned by non-Danish nationals? - will those assemblies be classed as Danish or not?

    I'm happy that the Danishness is "installed" at the design stage, where the parts are designed, engineered and materials selected and specified (aluminium parts and processing being a key example).

    The nationality is not the issue, the location of producing is. I know I have to pay more for articles made in Europe. This due to labor costs, cost of living, resources (like the example above about electricity), etc. The fact that I want to pay more is related to the mentioned socio-economics factors. I strongly believe we should have employment opportunities along the line in Europe.

    So I expect a bit more "European Built" in the offering than just Danish design to meet that requirement. And yes, I agree with the other remarks that pricing is important as well, probably leading to manufacturing decisions like producing in Czech, Poland, ... which in itself is not an issue.

  • 01-17-2010 1:37 AM In reply to

    • TWG
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    Re: The MADE IN DENMARK product thread :-)

    MGBGTV8:

    I would be disheartened to know the bv10, a £6k tv was just a samsung product in disguise its classic make it cheap in lowcost countries and sell high in posh boutique.

    quality is dropping in motorcars like bmw 3 series and audi are losing quality in last 10 years its the same nearly with all consumer goods there are lower quality and throw away.

    how about factories  in like denmark were conditions are good as well as strong workers representation you dont get that in many other parts of the world its a fall in standards.

    B&O often state there made in denmark high standards when a company gets run by accountants the inevitable happens low cost sourcing.

    its happened before with loads of branded japanese made bno products they always seemed to be the least loved by bno enthusiasts.

    there was an article i read from a factory director how claimed he could make hifi speakers to retail for £200 if made in china were it would be nearly £2000 in europe although i find this hard to believe.

    if bno are going to make entry level products outside denmark then they ought to sell them cheap.

    if you take work outside your own country it always come back to haunt you in lack of employment and expertise in the future


    I agree 100% and I know that we all (or most of us) like the real danish value of their "Made in Denmark" products. Outsourced products are losing quality all the way.

    But PLEASE contribute to the List of products that are made in Denmark, so we know which products are safe to buy and which we do have to avoid!

    Thanks.

     

  • 01-17-2010 4:53 AM In reply to

    Re: The MADE IN DENMARK product thread :-)

    TWG:

    MGBGTV8:

    I would be disheartened to know the bv10, a £6k tv was just a samsung product in disguise its classic make it cheap in lowcost countries and sell high in posh boutique.

    quality is dropping in motorcars like bmw 3 series and audi are losing quality in last 10 years its the same nearly with all consumer goods there are lower quality and throw away.

    how about factories  in like denmark were conditions are good as well as strong workers representation you dont get that in many other parts of the world its a fall in standards.

    B&O often state there made in denmark high standards when a company gets run by accountants the inevitable happens low cost sourcing.

    its happened before with loads of branded japanese made bno products they always seemed to be the least loved by bno enthusiasts.

    there was an article i read from a factory director how claimed he could make hifi speakers to retail for £200 if made in china were it would be nearly £2000 in europe although i find this hard to believe.

    if bno are going to make entry level products outside denmark then they ought to sell them cheap.

    if you take work outside your own country it always come back to haunt you in lack of employment and expertise in the future


    I agree 100% and I know that we all (or most of us) like the real danish value of their "Made in Denmark" products. Outsourced products are losing quality all the way.

    But PLEASE contribute to the List of products that are made in Denmark, so we know which products are safe to buy and which we do have to avoid!

    Thanks.

     

    The fact that you can't tell the difference rather negates your somewhat pathetic arguement.

    Regards Graham

  • 01-17-2010 5:48 AM In reply to

    Re: The MADE IN DENMARK product thread :-)

    joeyboygolf:

    The fact that you can't tell the difference rather negates your somewhat pathetic arguement.

    That was kind of my point here and on the other thread.

     

    edit: In fact, that would be a fun test.  They can make half a run of a product in China, half in Denmark, cut prices to reflect savings, and see if anyone can tell.

  • 01-17-2010 6:05 AM In reply to

    Re: The MADE IN DENMARK product thread :-)

    Having read this thread I really can not believe what some people are saying! I dont care where something is made, if I like it and feel it is worth the money I will buy it. If I dont I wont. I'm sure the Danish could produce some utter tat but you would still buy it because it says "Made in Denmark" so it must be good.

    If you only want to buy B&O because its made in Denmark then I find that a sad state of affairs. Do buy B&O because you like its products and design or do you buy it as a status symbol to make you feel bigger than your friends!

     

  • 01-17-2010 8:06 AM In reply to

    Re: The MADE IN DENMARK product thread :-)

    Harry2008:
    This due to labor costs, cost of living, resources (like the example above about electricity), etc.

     

    Are you sure these are the real reasons?

    Just this week by chance I read an article in "The Atlantic" that said the cheapest VW Golf costs costs €31,200 in Denmark (1,4 liter Benzin/Gasoline engine).  This prompted my curiosity, because the same 1,4 liter car costs 16,650 € in Germany.  And frankly the distance between, say, Sønderborg and Kiel is only about 120 kms... so it can't be "labor costs, cost of living, resources" that makes things more expensive in Denmark.

    I would venture it is probably something else, and I do not blame B&O if it needs to escape whatever that is in order to remain in business.

     

    http://www.volkswagen.dk/pdfgen/vw-pdfgen_person.aspx?strModel=Golf&orientation=l&url=http://www.volkswagen.dk/pdfgen/pdfcontent.aspx

  • 01-17-2010 8:29 AM In reply to

    Re: The MADE IN DENMARK product thread :-)

    XavierItzmann:

    Harry2008:
    This due to labor costs, cost of living, resources (like the example above about electricity), etc.

     

    Are you sure these are the real reasons?

    Just this week by chance I read an article in "The Atlantic" that said the cheapest VW Golf costs costs €31,200 in Denmark (1,4 liter Benzin/Gasoline engine).  This prompted my curiosity, because the same 1,4 liter car costs 16,650 € in Germany.  And frankly the distance between, say, Sønderborg and Kiel is only about 120 kms... so it can't be "labor costs, cost of living, resources" that makes things more expensive in Denmark.

    I would venture it is probably something else, and I do not blame B&O if it needs to escape whatever that is in order to remain in business.

     

    http://www.volkswagen.dk/pdfgen/vw-pdfgen_person.aspx?strModel=Golf&orientation=l&url=http://www.volkswagen.dk/pdfgen/pdfcontent.aspx

    You cannot compare car prices in Germany and Denmark that easy. In Denmark you pay a lot tax with your car. I wouldn't be surprised if the price without the taxes of a car is actually lower in Denmark than it is in Germany. 

    Beoworld's twenty-eighth ninth prize winner and fifty-first second prize winner. Best £30 I've ever spent!

  • 01-17-2010 9:21 AM In reply to

    Re: The MADE IN DENMARK product thread :-)

    beocool:

    XavierItzmann:

    Harry2008:
    This due to labor costs, cost of living, resources (like the example above about electricity), etc.

     

    Are you sure these are the real reasons?

    Just this week by chance I read an article in "The Atlantic" that said the cheapest VW Golf costs costs €31,200 in Denmark (1,4 liter Benzin/Gasoline engine).  This prompted my curiosity, because the same 1,4 liter car costs 16,650 € in Germany.  And frankly the distance between, say, Sønderborg and Kiel is only about 120 kms... so it can't be "labor costs, cost of living, resources" that makes things more expensive in Denmark.

    I would venture it is probably something else, and I do not blame B&O if it needs to escape whatever that is in order to remain in business.

     

    http://www.volkswagen.dk/pdfgen/vw-pdfgen_person.aspx?strModel=Golf&orientation=l&url=http://www.volkswagen.dk/pdfgen/pdfcontent.aspx

    You cannot compare car prices in Germany and Denmark that easy. In Denmark you pay a lot tax with your car. I wouldn't be surprised if the price without the taxes of a car is actually lower in Denmark than it is in Germany. 

    Yes, most likely it is cheaper, so it is in finland too... The manufacturer sells it's cars a bit cheaper to countries taxing cars to death... In hope for bigger sale volumes. The same VW Golf is about 19500 euro here in Finland, but small cars has gotten a lot cheaper here after the government changed the tax to be influenced by Co2/km emissions.

     

    -Andreas

     

    BLab5, BLab5000, BLab8000, BV10, BS9000, BS3, Beo5, Beo4, BLink1000, BLink5000, BLink7000, A2, A8, Form2

     

     

     

  • 01-20-2010 1:35 PM In reply to

    Re: The MADE IN DENMARK product thread :-)

    Are you sure about Beolabs made in Denmark?

    My BeoLab 5 from Summer 2009 has a sticker with: "Country of Origin: Czech"

    Same with BeoLab 3!

  • 01-20-2010 1:54 PM In reply to

    • Puncher
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    Re: The MADE IN DENMARK product thread :-)

    raveny:

    Are you sure about Beolabs made in Denmark?

    My BeoLab 5 from Summer 2009 has a sticker with: "Country of Origin: Czech"

    Same with BeoLab 3!

    Ooh - that could cause an upset!

    Generally speaking, you aren't learning much if your lips are moving.

  • 01-20-2010 3:01 PM In reply to

    Re: The MADE IN DENMARK product thread :-)

    Their praised, top-of-the-line speaker, sold for the price of a compact car, is finished in eastern Europe? How pathetic! Wonder if anything is made in Denmark anymore? Someone could please check if the factory is still there?!

     

    .b

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