I bought a pair of BeoLab 3 floor stands from ebay seller richy0_6 through paypal but not using ebay. However they were advertised on ebay as excellent condition. We agreed a price and I paid via paypal and the stands arrived. Then the problem started.

  The stands are badly scratched, have dings and dints on both top plates. Both speaker mounts have the locating pins broken off. All in all they are shabby and not in 'excellent condition' as stated.

I contacted richy0_6 and informed him of my dissapointment to which he replied. There was nothing wrong with the stands when I packed them, so I can not do anything about it. What a great seller

So I thought I will have no problem with paypal sorting this one out. I will just be able to return them for a full refund. Oh no!! I forgot it's paypal we are talking about. I opened a dispute on the 24th Dec, it was closed in his favour on 24th Dec. Reason being, I was disputing the quality of the goods, you are not covered for this unless you purchase through ebay, what an absolute joke.

So beware striking a deal out of ebay as you may just receive a box full of junk and you will have no recourse what so ever.

Also beware seller richy0_6 as he is selling quite a bit of B&O at the moment. Sorry if you are a member of Beoworld pal. All I asked for was a refund for the shoddy goods you sent me.

Jonnie

Jonnie

I am sorry that you are going though this and that you are the one who has been left out of pocket.

That said, I do have some sympathy with Paypal in this situation.

Presumably you became aware that the speakers were on sale and then decided to conduct the transaction privately in order to avoid eBay fees etc. Having declined to conduct the transaction on eBay it seems ironic that you then rely on the eBay description in making your case to PayPal for a refund. Many people here have learned the hard way that Paypal almost always rule in favour of the seller on eBay transactions so your chances would have been good.

I do not know the seller but you have been active here for long enough for me to trust you when you say you have been shafted. That said I dont think PayPal can be asked to intervene in purely private transactions as thay have no way of knowing what disussions took place between you prior to the sale.

I know this will seem unpalatabe to you right now but the main warning I would take away from this is never be tempted to go 'off eBay' unless you are going to be inspecting and collecting the goods yourself. I have made precisely this mistake in the past and lost all my money, but fortunately for a much smaller amount.    

Caveat Emptor applies here I am afraid, all you can do now is look at what Civil remedies are available to you.

Simon

Hi Simon, I totally understand your coments.

 We conducted the sale through paypal and I sent a note with the payment to the effect of, 'payment for beolab 3 speaker stands in excellent condition'. This is only the info paypal would have been privy to if the transaction had been conducted through ebay. The sellers description was very basic as was his photo.

  My point is, paypal bang on about their protection policies. It is complete rubbish, they are saying if you use paypal to buy anything then they only will interviene if the goods do not arrive. This leaves a massive loophole for people to send goods of inferior quality. I asked them if one stand had arrived would I have a case. The answer is no as it is my word against the sellers about the contents. once you sign for delivery then tough. I suggest opening the packaging and test the goods before you sign. Don't imagine the driver will be too impressed though!

  Jonnie

Whilst I can sympathise with your obvious disappointment, I can't see why your gripe is with PayPal.  Surely they're just the method of payment?  You could equally have sent a cheque in the post - would you have asked your bank to refund you?

Buying something on eBay is a bit different as they effectively sell the product on behalf of the original seller and take a fee for doing so.

Caveat emptor indeed.

Seller emailed me to say they did not have the t-shirt in stock, but refused to refund.

Raise a dispute with Paypal, and even though they decided in my favour, they never refunded me.

The problem comes from the fact that Paypal is doing a lot of adverts saying they are safe and garanteed, and that you get your money back when something goes wrong and that is why you should use it. But when you have a problem, they always find a reason in a fine print not to refund you.

p.

Paypal is mainly advertising itself as having the buyer/seller protection for purchases on ebay.  Outside of that it is not clear at all.

Buying on ebay throug Paypal, will give you the financial protection you need if something is going wrong with the seller...

Cheers,

Guy

PAYPAL does work to protect the buyer and seller.

First PAYPAL and EBAY are the same company. Going outside of this relationship can lead to consequences: Read the rules, and stay within the agreement terms.

Second I have had two disputes for damaged goods received with PAYPAL-paid items purchased on EBAY. Both were major cost items, and  completelydamaged in the shipping process. I filed a complaint ( documenting everything with photographs and a logical, unemotional written description of events ) for " Items received not as described " and in both cases was fully repaid.

It works very well, but stay within the system.

Even though Paypal and ebay are in conjunction. Paypal itself is now seen, advertised and accepted as a payment option for all types of goods from outside of ebay. This is my point. To pay via paypal for none ebay items leaves you with problems if the goods are not as described.

  They do not cover this, only if the goods do not arrive will they get involved. This to my mind is unfair. To be transparent they should limit their involvement to ebay alone to save confusion.

 I too have had items that have been covered because I bought through ebay via paypal with no problem.

  Hope this explains my frustration.

  Jonnie

I know what you're saying Jonnie - if paypal is accepted as payment, whatever the circumstances, then you should be entitled to the same cover offered as a buyer from ebay. I suppose they are only interested in protecting the ebay arm of their business to dissuede people making deals off of ebay. Looks like it works as well & I suppose you just have to put it down to experience.

chris.

I'am sorry to say, but I think You missed the point.

Paypal was never offered any kind of an "insurence" or "refund" about any purchased item, as they were just offered the ability to pay via their company, as Paypal is a money sending company, just like Western Union.

After Paypal was purchased by Ebay, Ebay were created a totally brand new protection system, and it was called  "Buyer Paypal protection", but from the very first time it was limited only to the items, which were purchased via Ebay.

In other words, this means, that EBAY is the company WHO takes the responsibility about the goods You purchesed VIA their site, IF YOU USE PAYPAL, and of course Ebay will not take the responsibility in any other cases.

It's just a surplus on Paypal that You can claim about an item, which were not arrived, but as somebody else said: Paypal is just like a bank, they are not a jury, and they hasen't got any resources to investigate a claim about "item not as described".

Anyway I simply can not understand, why You were made this business outside Ebay? If You were agreed in the price, then the regular way is to simply lower the price by the seller, and You can immediately buy it, and pay it via Paypal... I've did it several times, and there was never any problem with it.

Here is a thought:

How do you pay your PayPal bill? I pay mine through a credit card. Does that mean I am covered by the bank too? Does this help? 

Paypal, as of recently, has become extremely risky for sellers;

You sell something on Ebay, pack it extremely well and send it around the world.
Somewhere on its way, it gets run over by a forklift and arrives completely shattered.
The buyer signs for it.
The buyer starts a Paypal dispute for an item "not as decribed".
24 hours later the buyer escalates the dispute to a claim.
Paypal decides in favour of the buyer and refunds both the items ending price and
the expensive shipping cost out of the sellers account.
AND - decides that the buyer can keep the item !

Being a vintage B&O it will still, even if damaged, hold a considerable parts value.

Ebay rules are very clear, that in "item not as described"-cases, the buyer must return the
unwanted item to qualify for a refund (of course) and that was also the rules that
applied to the Ebay listing. But Ebay regulations are set aside when payment is done
using Paypal, so Ebay told me. In that case only Paypals rules are valid and
they are fluffy to say the least.

Just had a case like this.

Clearly:
- The buyer should never have signed for the package. He should have rejected it and claimed a refund
from the shipping company (which I actually tried to help him with but the 24 hours I had was a saturday
and not enough for the shipping company to answer my email).
- Starting a Paypal dispute for an "item not as described" is very unfair since
it was the actual item, a unique vintage B&O.
But it all worked fine for him.

I am currently awaiting the result of my appeal of this unfair case but of course, I am now considering
alternatives to Paypal like. f.e. Moneybookers or maybe even Real Merchant, at least
for transactions involving larger amounts.
Paypal may be attractive for new buyers but how much is that worth if noone dares
to sell anything ?

Martin

If the transaction was wholly in the UK then you may be covered by the 'Distance Selling regulations(2000)

http://www.berr.gov.uk/whatwedo/consumers/buying-selling/distance-selling/index.html

http://www.onlineshoppingrights.co.uk/understanding-uk-distance-selling-regulations.html

Martin;

You make a very good point, and something I need to clarify regarding PAYPAL.

In both of our claims, which were large value items, the damage clearly resulted in the shipment process. We did not anticipate the shipper to hole the carton ( in one incident  ) with a forklift and the leather chair arm inside, anymore than the seller did. As buyer and seller we both expected something more professional than masking tape over the holed and stating they were not responsible.

The ever-innocent shipper asked to see our insurance policy. We had not done this. Is the buyer or the seller also to take out an insurance policy for EBAY-PAYPAL transactions ?  In hindsight, perhaps.

However, in both cases, PAYPAL required the items to be returned to the seller FIRST, via a tracking numbbefore repayment was made to us. PAYPAL also stipulated the return of the damaged items was at our cost.

We found that remarkably, that our cost was one third of that charged originally to us by seller. 

Martin;

You make a very good point.

In our two claims, PAYPAL did require the return of the damaged items to the seller first, before our repayment. We also did this at our cost, another PAYPAL stipulation.

In one case, neither of us (the seller or buyer) expected the shipper to hole the carton with a forklift, tearing into a leather chair inside, and just tape it over. The shipper's response ?  " Damage unknown to us " and " Are you covered by an insurance policy ? "  A wonderful deflection of responsibility, and perhaps there is some merit to insurance for large expensive items. But does the buyer or seller purchase said policy ?

Both sellers and buyers suffer the consequences of the " Jim Carrey-Pet Detective " shipping professionals on an ongoing basis, who are never, ever found at fault. Damaged shipment received ?  Stipulate returning it back to the seller before allowing repayment.

Paypal has always been risky, just has become riskier... I only use it as a last resort after my Bl7000 stand went "missing" despite having proof of postage.

I have had a very similar experience when buying something outside of ebay.  The item (an automotive air bag control box) was sold to me as a fully working unit - well, it didn't work, and being an auto electrician I knew this was the cause of the problem.  The seller would not refund claiming I had damaged the unit when fitting it.  Paypal would not refund because the transaction had been carried out outside of ebay.  I then put a claim to my credit card that I used to pay for the item and they eventually refunded the full amount.  I don't know if they recovered it from the seller but hey!, I was satisfied with the outcome.

The thing to remember is that most (if not all) credit card providers give a 90 day warranty on any goods purchased using their card.  I always use it when buying goods, especially on ebay where one doesn't know the integrity of the seller, and it can be a useful second insurance if Paypal let you down.  So Jonnie, if you used a credit card to buy this and you are still within the 90 day limit you may be able to make a claim.

Alex

Wow, sympathy for Paypal ?? That makes me feel kinda queasy.

Far from it!  It was my credit card that provided the refund, not Paypal.

I stupidly bought some A8s on ebay and received fakes.

I've disputed with Paypal saying they are fake. The seller has acknowledged they're fake in his responses, yet I still have to provide proof!! And Paypal has given me 3 days to provide it.

The 3 days are a Saturday, a Sunday and a Monday. The Monday is a Public holiday here, meaning everything is closed.

How stupid is that???

Providing a proof that they are fake? Is it not to the seller to provide a proof they are real??

Can you not photograph them and send a link to an original photo on the B&O website highlighting the differences?

p.

Maybe that would help:

http://reviews.ebay.co.uk/Fake-Bang-amp-Olufsen-A8-Earphones_W0QQugidZ10000000002314859

Since the seller disclosed in the auction that they might be fake, and you bid anyway, how do you have a case?

edit: think I answered my own question: you're not allowed to sell fakes on eBay

mediabobny:

Since the seller disclosed in the auction that they might be fake, and you bid anyway, how do you have a case?

edit: think I answered my own question: you're not allowed to sell fakes on eBay

Also, the seller had a photograph (not a file photo) of genuine A8s on his listing. He stated that they may or may not be fakes, and I reasonably assumed the picture was of the actual item so bought on that basis. If he had have put a photo of the actual item, I would not have bought them as I would have been able to detect straight away.

To me, the listing was misleading so I should therefore be entitled to a refund on that basis alone.