I've been doing some research on this.  So far based on what I've sampled from youtube, 4000 series, (I've heard 4002, which may be a slightly less refined belt drive system than 4000) sounds the best as far as the tangential tracking turn tables go.

I've sampled 8000, 5000 series, either direct drive or inferior belt drive system than one employed at 4000 series.

Many of you speculated it may be due to the needle.   I think it may be due to the drive system.

My experience is primarily limited to cassettes, but I can tell you belt drive cassette decks generally are far superior to direct drive cassette decks as far as sonics are concerned.

In fact, the radial tracking beograms I've sampled far better than beogram 8000 series employing tangential direct drive, just like some of you noted, it sounded "muddy", or as I call it, "flat".

I know the latest super high end burmeiser cd player employs belt drive for sonic quality.   

Here's one view:

http://www.furious.com/PERFECT/vinyl53.html

RedGrant:

I know the latest super high end burmeiser cd player employs belt drive for sonic quality.   

 

That kind of stuff always sounds my personal bullsh1t detector at full volume. From an engineering point of view, it makes absolutely no sense. But then again, I'm an engineer and not a high end mystician. I can appreciate it if somebody thinks they are hearing a difference, though, but I'm not falling for any of that...

Anyway, that's completely irrelevant to the point, which is vinyl table drive. 4000 and the earlier 4002/6000 models with AC motor drive should be pretty good, and even measurably so. The AC motor has a fairly constant torque through its rotation, and the inertia of the heavy platter and the large belt diameter should help as well to kill the flutter that remains after the belt itself. Theoretically, I'm not sure I'm completely happy about how the mechanical noises from both the main motor and the servo are isolated from the carriage, put I certainly don't hear them in practise.

Can't comment on the direct drive generation, I've never really listened to them.

But really, you're comparing these turntables according to what you've found on YouTube?

tournedos:

 From an engineering point of view, it makes absolutely no sense.

Please explain why it absolutely makes no sense.  The person from the link I provided made sense to me from mechanical/acoustical point of view.

tournedos:

But then again, I'm an engineer and not a high end mystician. I can appreciate it if somebody thinks they are hearing a difference, though, but I'm not falling for any of that...

Well, I think/hear the definite difference between belt drive and direct drive as far as cassette decks are concerned, in front of me.

tournedos:

Anyway, that's completely irrelevant to the point, which is vinyl table drive.

Please explain why it is irrelevant to the point just because it's a vinyl table drive.   Physics/acoustics of why belt-drive is sonically superior  to direct drive (unless one's willing to put far more effort to direct drive than belt-drive) still applies whether it be vinyl or cd or cassette according to the reasons provided from the link.

tournedos:

  Theoretically, I'm not sure I'm completely happy about how the mechanical noises from both the main motor and the servo are isolated from the carriage, ....

Please indulge me.   How would you have done it differently?

tournedos:

Can't comment on the direct drive generation, I've never really listened to them.

Well, I can after having listend to direct drive turntable too long.  They suck sonically compared to well-tuned belt-drive.

tournedos:

But really, you're comparing these turntables according to what you've found on YouTube?

Indeed.  The trick is to listen to a device in real life in front of you, and then listen to it again from youtube, and extrapolate the difference, after that, listen to other devices from youtube, and compare them to the sound of the device you're familiar with in real life as you listen to it from youtube.

This way, you can differentiate the relative, not actual, but relative sound quality of different devices.

Analogy would be this:

Obviously you know how Paul McCartney sounds.  You also know how people who are not as gifted as McCartney sound.

Can you tell the difference, the relative voice/sound quality?   I can, even if I have never listend to Paul McCartney's voice in real life in front of me, even if I have never listend to people not as gifted as McCartney in real life.....all from youtube.

Of course it helps if I listend to either McCartney's voice or the people not as gifted as McCartney in real life.

(Geez what a pain it is to try and keep the quotations sorted...)

RedGrant:

tournedos:

 From an engineering point of view, it makes absolutely no sense.

Please explain why it absolutely makes no sense.  The person from the link I provided made sense to me from mechanical/acoustical point of view.

 

tournedos:

But then again, I'm an engineer and not a high end mystician. I can appreciate it if somebody thinks they are hearing a difference, though, but I'm not falling for any of that...

 

Well, I think/hear the definite difference between belt drive and direct drive as far as cassette decks are concerned, in front of me.

Yes, but those cases have a direct connection between the mechanical rotation and the sound that comes out. The difference is obvious once you know how a CD player works. The rotational subtleties of the disc have absolutely no effect on the bitstream that comes out from the error corrector / decoder, and is later fed to the D/A. The stability of that is taken care of by the clock system that runs these non-rotating bits (that clock is subject to better and worse implementations).

All the spindle motor and its servo system need to do is to keep the read buffer approximately half-full, and they might use wooden cog wheels to achieve that goal for all that it's worth.

tournedos:

Anyway, that's completely irrelevant to the point, which is vinyl table drive.

Please explain why it is irrelevant to the point just because it's a vinyl table drive. 

You are constantly misreading my text. What I wanted to point out was that a belt drive CD and whether somebody thinks it sounds better have no relevance to the matter you wanted to discuss, which was vinyl decks.

tournedos:

  Theoretically, I'm not sure I'm completely happy about how the mechanical noises from both the main motor and the servo are isolated from the carriage, ....

 

Please indulge me.   How would you have done it differently?

None of my business since I didn't design them But take my Beogram 6000 (early AC version) which has a non-working muting circuit. This means that the audio stays on while the carriage is travelling with the arm raised. I can hear that in my speakers. This means that the same sound will be there while the pickup is down playing a record - it will be much lower in frequency, probably lower in amplitude, but it is there. Not that it matters a bit to me, I can't hear it.

tournedos:

But really, you're comparing these turntables according to what you've found on YouTube?

 

Indeed.  The trick is to listen to a device in real life in front of you, and then listen to it again from youtube, and extrapolate the difference, after that, listen to other devices from youtube, and compare them to the sound of the device you're familiar with in real life as you listen to it from youtube.

This way, you can differentiate the relative, not actual, but relative sound quality of different devices.

Fine in principle, but I still hold that you're comparing more the relative merits of different Youtube recordings, each crappier than another, and gone through a number of random quality A/D and D/A conversions. The moment your comparison samples don't come from the same source, there are too many variables.

In my view, the 4000 is good because of the heavy platter. The drive is by belt and in that way very similar to the 4002/4004/6000 but these have lighter platters. Not convinced the AC or DC motors make a lot of difference and I cannot hear the arm motor working. The motors on all these decks are completely silent, unlike that of my Thorens Beogram 3000 which is audible.

As far as the 8000/2 is concerned, this again has an inaudible motor, it being a linear induction motor, and in the case of the 8002, it also has better record support. I prefer the sound of my MMC20 type cartridges to the MMC2 but have no criticism of the playback.

tournedos:

From an engineering point of view, it makes absolutely no sense.

RedGrant:

Please explain why it absolutely makes no sense.  The person from the link I provided made sense to me from mechanical/acoustical point of view.

tournedos:

But then again, I'm an engineer and not a high end mystician. I can appreciate it if somebody thinks they are hearing a difference, though, but I'm not falling for any of that...

RedGrant:

Well, I think/hear the definite difference between belt drive and direct drive as far as cassette decks are concerned, in front of me.

tournedos:

Yes, but those cases have a direct connection between the mechanical rotation and the sound that comes out.

So vinyl turntable doesn't have a direct connection between the mechanical rotation and the sound that comes out?

tournedos:

The difference is obvious once you know how a CD player works. The rotational subtleties of the disc have absolutely no effect on the bitstream that comes out from the error corrector / decoder, and is later fed to the D/A. The stability of that is taken care of by the clock system that runs these non-rotating bits (that clock is subject to better and worse implementations). All the spindle motor and its servo system need to do is to keep the read buffer approximately half-full, and they might use wooden cog wheels to achieve that goal for all that it's worth.

So why did burmester engineers go all that trouble building proprietary belt-drive?   Does this mean they were all stupid/incompetent?

http://news.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/10381/386227.html

Below is an opinion of burmester cd player by Jonathan Valin, the reviewer at Absolute Sound:

While I'm not ready to give up tubes quite yet, I'm not

willing to give up the Soulution 710 either, which is just

a new kind of animal I've never heard before. The only

other time I've had an experience like this one was when I

first heard the belt-drive Burmester CD player about ten

or twelve years ago, which didn't sound like any other CD

player I'd ever listened to and opened up a whole new

realm of possiblities. That's what this amp does. -

Jonathan Valin

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:_NZ5KRuJhkYJ:www.avguide.com/forums/soulution710+burmester+cd+player+review,+jonathan+valin&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

 I'll say about Valin based on my experience with his reviews.   I purchased  Loewe Aconda based on his review, and he was right on the money.   

tournedos:

Anyway, that's completely irrelevant to the point, which is vinyl table drive.

RedGrant:

Please explain why it is irrelevant to the point just because it's a vinyl table drive.

tournedos:

  You are constantly misreading my text. What I wanted to point out was that a belt drive CD and whether somebody thinks it sounds better have no relevance to the matter you wanted to discuss, which was vinyl decks.

Following is your own quote regarding the relevance of belt-drive and direct-drive on cases concerning devices whose sound comes out of mechanical rotation following my citation of the link whose owner explained why belt-drive turntable is sonically superior to direct-drive turntable generally based on mechanical/acoustics.

tournedos:

Yes, but those cases have a direct connection between the mechanical rotation and the sound that comes out.

So vinyl turntable doesn't have a direct connection between the mechanical rotation and the sound that comes out?

tournedos:

  Theoretically, I'm not sure I'm completely happy about how the mechanical noises from both the main motor and the servo are isolated from the carriage, ....

RedGrant:

Please indulge me.   How would you have done it differently?

tournedos:

None of my business since I didn't design them  But take my Beogram 6000 (early AC version) which has a non-working muting circuit. This

means that the audio stays on while the carriage is travelling with the arm raised. I can hear that in my speakers. This means that the

same sound will be there while the pickup is down playing a record - it will be much lower in frequency, probably lower in amplitude, but it is there. Not that it matters a bit to me, I can't hear it.

RedGrant:

Thank you for your thoughts.

tournedos:

But really, you're comparing these turntables according to what you've found on YouTube?

RedGrant:

Indeed.  The trick is to listen to a device in real life in front of you, and then listen to it again from youtube, and extrapolate the difference, after that, listen to other devices from youtube, and compare them to the sound of the device you're familiar with in real life as you listen to it from youtube.This way, you can differentiate the relative, not actual, but relative sound quality of different devices.

tournedos:

Fine in principle,...

...and fine in practice, at least for my ears, and so long as one used high quality speakers, I used Tivoli mono speaker for the purpose, and I actually find mono speaker works better than stereos for relative comparison purpose, less distration I think.

Have you tried it?

tournedos:

 ...but I still hold that you're comparing more the relative merits of different Youtube recordings, ....

Yes, that's a possiblity, but I have tried it extensively, and I found it overall that was not the case.

tournedos:

.....each crappier than another, and gone through a number of random quality A/D and D/A conversions. The moment your comparison samples don't come from the same source, there are too many variables.

Based on my personal extensive experience, youtube quality is not that uneven overall.  Yes, everynow and then I find a real crappy sound quality, but overall they don't have that much variation and actually more or less even.

Just as an experiment, find your favorite Beatles song from youtube and play them, and see how much variation in sound quality from different youtube accounts of the same Beatles song.

I guess this means you are not able to tell who has better more pleasant singing quality of the same song,  Paul McCartney vs. Joe at the neighborhood beer hall from youtube.

How come I can?

Peter :

In my view, the 4000 is good because of the heavy platter. The drive is by belt and in that way very similar to the 4002/4004/6000 but these have lighter platters.

I read from different sources that the only way direct-drive can equal the belt-drive is to use heavier platter than the belt-drive, of course, which means the direct drive with heavier platter will require more solidly built chassis, and stronger, more reliable motor.

Now let's forget about those messy quotes, and I'll try just one more time to get across the message I originally had (which was a digression anyway):

• I agree that vinyl decks and cassette decks may sound different depending on the drive type, since the rotation has something to do with the sound that comes out
• I completely disagree that a CD player would sound different depending on the drive type, since the rotation has nothing to do with the sound that comes out

Am I making my stand clear now?

I'll classify spikes under CD players and other voodoo right down with the lower point, no matter who is selling them and no matter how much they dare to charge for them.

tournedos:

I agree that vinyl decks and cassette decks may sound different depending on the drive type, since the rotation has something to do with the sound that comes out

I agree.

tournedos:

I completely disagree that a CD player would sound different depending on the drive type, since the rotation has nothing to do with the sound that comes out.

Based on my personal experience, I have to agree tenatively.  I have only listend to cd players with direct drive, some really good and cheap, some expensive, not so great.  some cheap, and horrible.

I have no personal experience with belt drive cd players.

tournedos:

Am I making my stand clear now?

Yes.

tournedos:

I'll classify spikes under CD players and other voodoo right down with the lower point, no matter who is selling them and no matter how much they dare to charge for them.

You know what, I think I'll have to agree with you on that tenatively at least on sonics, since I have no experience if they really work or not.

But considering the amount of money they charge, I'll pass, I'd better off spending the money on restoration of vintage equipment than fancy stands with fancy price even if they work.

RedGrant:

tournedos:

I'll classify spikes under CD players and other voodoo right down with the lower point, no matter who is selling them and no matter how much they dare to charge for them.

 

You know what, I think I'll have to agree with you on that tenatively at least on sonics, since I have no experience if they really work or not.

But considering the amount of money they charge, I'll pass, I'd better off spending the money on restoration of vintage equipment than fancy stands with fancy price even if they work.

Whether it sounded like it or not, I actually agreed with you from the start as well - that belt drive CD just got me on my toes. There's so much else in a CD than the platter drive that actually can and does make a difference, even measureably so. The problem with high-end hifi industry is that they mix proper engineering standpoints, stuff that can perhaps be just heard, and plain voodoo. Along with the vinyl, they lost one huge point over which to argue (belt vs. direct drive, and the quality of either), so it is only natural that they try to carry it over. I'm sure that Burmeister sounds great, but I firmly believe that has nothing to do with the belt drive, the spikes nor the elaborate suspension...

Getting back to the charter (and the other topic you started), I believe you would be happy with either a 4000 or 4002. Any of the B&O tangentials will be easy on your rare vinyl since the stylus force is so low. It would be much easier to get a good cartridge for the 8002 which uses a MMCx, though.

tournedos:

 There's so much else in a CD than the platter drive that actually can and does make a difference, even measureably so.

I agree.   Personally I would never pay 65k for a cd player, even if I were a billionaire.  I think the best value for high quality cd player right now is one from Philips from 80's.

I'm sure one can find a better cd player than that, but at what price, 2k, 3k, 10k?  and how much better?  A lot? or just a bit?

tournedos:

The problem with high-end hifi industry is that they mix proper engineering standpoints, stuff that can perhaps be just heard, and plain voodoo.

I agree, and that is one reason why I usually stay away from "audiophile" grade stuff.    Mcintosh is the exception though.  Btw. Mcintosh is not the most expensive brand out there, there are other amps far more expensive than Mcintosh, and I actually prefer the sound of Mcintosh.

tournedos:

Along with the vinyl, they lost one huge point over which to argue (belt vs. direct drive, and the quality of either), so it is only natural that they try to carry it over. I'm sure that Burmeister sounds great, but I firmly believe that has nothing to do with the belt drive, the spikes nor the elaborate suspension...

Even if it has, I wouldn't pay for it, even if I were a billionaire.

tournedos:

Getting back to the charter (and the other topic you started), I believe you would be happy with either a 4000 or 4002. Any of the B&O tangentials will be easy on your rare vinyl since the stylus force is so low. It would be much easier to get a good cartridge for the 8002 which uses a MMCx, though.

Thanks for the heads up.  

Actually MMC20 cartridges are no more difficult. Soundsmith ones are just the MMC1-4 range in a suitable shell and Axel does the retipping on old ones.

In my view the Beogram 4000 is the absolute standout in this august group. I own a 4000, 4002, 4004, 1602, 8000, and 8002.

One only has to open up these turntables to be struck by the incredible quality of the 4000 series with the 4000 being in a class by itself.

In contrast the 8000 and 8002 looks positively cheap by comparison.

I am not denigrating the 8000 series as I hold both the 8000 and 8002 in very high regard.

Currently my best sounding turntable is the 8002 with its wonderful MMC2 cartridge. However with a proper MMC20CL (either rebuilt or Soundsmiths) I have NO doubt that the 4000 would stand supreme.

Having said that I am absolutely thrilled by my “lesser” 4000 series turntables. Either 4002 or 4004 would make a superb addition to anyone’s audio collection. Both are remarkable turntables and esthetically flawless.

Much can be said about having a beltless drive but I don’t know that a belted drive like the one on the 4000 series is a liability.

I wouldn’t part with any of my turntables, but if I HAD to choose just one, there is NO question it would be the Beogram 4000 with its Swiss AC motor, strobe, record position indicator (silly, but attractive), and its ability to transform vinyl into a virtual concert hall.

Jeff

Piaf:

 

 

I wouldn’t part with any of my turntables, but if I HAD to choose just one, there is NO question it would be the Beogram 4000 with its Swiss AC motor, strobe, record position indicator (silly, but attractive), and its ability to transform vinyl into a virtual concert hall.

 

Jeff

Thank you for your input.   Now I know which one I should be hunting for.

A noble goal, to be sure, however these beasts do NOT travel well and none were imported to North America. Also, do keep in mind that if a 4000 has not been properly serviced in the last few years, it will require a good deal of work from an above average shop.

Good luck in your search.

Jeff

I would agree - I know of only three people who I would have real confidence in fixing these and two are in Denmark.

Peter is absolutely right and shipping to Denmark is frighteningly expensive! And then there is the ornery Danish Customs that insist on charging customs fees as if the Beogram were a gift, not one for repair…..adding to the costs.

Jeff

Piaf:

.... to be sure, however these beasts do NOT travel well and none were imported to North America.

I never knew that.  Thanks for heads up.

Piaf:

Also, do keep in mind that if a 4000 has not been properly serviced in the last few years, it will require a good deal of work from an above average shop.

Well, that is to be taken for granted for all vintages except the ones serviced very recently.

Peter :

I would agree - I know of only three people who I would have real confidence in fixing these and two are in Denmark.

Wow!  I guess that means there's none in U.S.?

Piaf:

Peter is absolutely right and shipping to Denmark is frighteningly expensive! And then there is the ornery Danish Customs that insist on charging customs fees as if the Beogram were a gift, not one for repair…..adding to the costs.

 

Jeff

Well, so much for my aspiration of someday sending one to Dillen the master for fix up.

What makes the Danish Customs take action is that the higher value you put on the packet the more the reciving end will be taxed.

So when shipping from US you put on the full insurance and value and so on for the long journey ahead. When it arrives in Denmark the value written is above a certain low amount the reciver will be charged acordentlig.

The only thing it takes is packing the item safely. Only Canada will treat it as a bomb scare first so that is nothing to worry about.

A good example is buying a Soundsmith MMC2 pickup. They send it fully insured and everything. The customs go: We want our bit since the value written is higher. They have no real idea either. For some reason they send it back twice and I then instructed Soundsmith to send it straight without any value written. That worked like a charm. Straight through.

Well since I am the guy whose Beogram 4002 was tagged a “suspected bomb,” and treated accordingly…. let me say I wasn’t the least bit amused. Canada Post leaves much to be desired.

However when I ship to the US or Germany there are seldom if ever issues when the package is being shipped for repair and so marked.

Not so when shipping to Denmark. The only way to avoid a HUGE customs fee is to ship the package at very low value, but if you do that, the package is essentially uninsured. If lost or broken, you are out of luck.

The shipping fee alone one way to Denmark for my Beocord 9000 was about US$380! Then there was the customs fees to add insult to injury.

Dillen shipped the 9000 back via Germany and the cost was significantly less.

Jeff

Anthony Garza in Texas used to do excellent work on B&O components, but I believe he's stopped taking regular orders. I suspect he might be willing to resuscitate a Beogram 4000, though - they deserve to be kept alive.

You'll find more info about Garza through this link:

http://barditch.beocentral.com/

I'm a very happy owner of a well-maintained Beogram 4000, and can only recommend them highly.

Unfortunately, Anthony Garza seems quite tricky to get hold of. I agree that he would have been the recommendation in the past.

Hi there,

Sorry for the late post on this thread. The Beogram 4000 is by all accounts the "dream table" as others will confer here. It encompasses everything that Jacob Jensen wanted a table to become when he designed it. I have three 4002's, & one 4000 which was HARD to find. I found it on E-Bay from some seller in NYC & it came with a European round power plug. Finding spare parts was another "dream"! , but after long careful stalking I found a seller in Spain who was willing to break a table down & sell parts.

If you can't find a 4000, a 4002 makes an absolutely fine table indeed. In the United States, I see mostly 4002 & 4004 tables. If you come across one that is exceptional, & the price is right, I wouldn't pass it up.  If it comes with ephemera & the original box so much the better. Luckily, one of my 4002's came with the original box, foam inserts, & mountains of brochures, service manuals & catalogs, etc. & was dead ringer mint. I would never sell that table or the 4000.

They play wonderfully, & are a visual delight. I get incredible joy from them.

Keep us posted.

Duncan