Guy's

 

Some of you guy's may be aware that the B&O products in my family general start life owned by my grandad and filter through to me via my Dad. This means that the less fortunate in the family like myself get the oportunity to own some truely great stuff.

 

My Avant was my grandads in 1997 and my Beomaster 5000 system was his first B&O back in 1984.

 

I just add to this as and when I can afford to, So far I've bought a Beocentre 2500, Pentalab 1's and DVD 1

 

Now, my chuntering aside, my grandads latest B&O was bought April 2006 and consists of BV7 with .4 speaker, Lab8000's at the front, Lab6000's at the rear. He's also got a Beosound 3200 with a Beogram 5005 and Beocord 7000 (in black). The set-up looks great and sounds good (I've never been as impressed with the 8000's or 6000's sound wise when compared to the Penta's, personal preference me thinks) 

The BV7 has been a pain in the *** since he bought it with the picture pixelating and freezing on a regular basis, Rowney of Stafford replaced the Panasonic   digi-box and things improved slightly but the problem is still aparent. This behaviour has really spoilt his  B&O ownership over the last year or so but things have improved a lot since I found and disconnected an aerial amplifier that he was running so that he could send the aerial signal to his MX4002 in the bedroom.

 
Anyway on to my point (I knew there was one), We were watching mission impossible last night and the audio sounded really detached and quite sibilant from the 7.4 speaker not natural at all, Has any one else found this with the 7.4? The BV7 is in the corner of the room and I do sit off-axis but when I shuffled myself towards the middle of the room it still didn't sound as good as , well my Avant.

 

Is this part of B&O's new ethos where price ranks over performance???
 

Hi Craig,

 

Here is my story view and experience with BL7.4.

 

Some year ago I had a set-up with a old MX6000 and Penta III’s as front speakers. I really liked the sound from the Pentas and find them to be very very good speakers.

 

Then 1½ year ago I got a BV7 with BL7.4 as centre and BL3’a as rear. I kept my Pemta III’s as front. Then I immediately noticed the big different in sound from the Pentas and the BL7.4. When watching a movie etc. and sound moved from centre to one of the sides, the sound changed completely. This was very irritating. I’m not saying that the sound was bad from the centre, but just that it was very much different from the Pentas.

I noticed the same difference when listening to music in speaker 4 mode. The sound from the Pentas and the rear BL3 had the same difference.

To my eras the sound from the Pentas are more relaxed and soft. Good bass but not super precise, good midrange, but damped and kept in the background and ok high end but not crisp clear. I think this is very much 80’s style sound. Very very good sound and not making noise / scratches in record and bad recording too obviously. The BL7.4 and BL3 I find to be very clear and detailed. As recordings and source etc. is much better today you are able to hear the details and not get irritated by background noise etc.

My big problem was the difference in sound between my speakers.

 

The a few months ago I changed my Pentas to new BL9’s. This completely solved my problem. The BL9’s exactly match the BL7.4 and now I don’t notice any change in sound when something is moving from centre to the side and I just enjoy watching the movie. Also in speaker 4 mode music sound the same from the front BL9’s and rear BL3’s. In addition to solving the problem I had, I also find the BL9’s to be fantastic sound-wise. Very good precise and detailed bass, detailed and clear mid-range with out being dominating and crisp clear high-end. Also the ALT fill the room in a very balanced way, with a good sound picture in most of the room.

 

I think the sound from the Pentas is similar in type to the BL8000 and BL6000. The Pentas are somewhat better in the bass and more powerful than the BL8000 and the BL8000 and somewhat better then the Bl6000. But the sound is not that much difference. Soft and relaxed and general very good. I think the introducing ALT speakers change the sound completely. I still not saying the one is better than the other, but clearly very different.

 

My conclusion is not to mix old-type (pre ALT) and new type (ALT) speakers in the same set-up. Design-wise I would have liked to change my Pentas to BL8000, but I would end with the same problem sound-wise. So for me the BL9’s was the solution. And I really like them both in design and sound (still BL8000 are my favourite in design).

 

For the BL7.4 specific, you should not compare this speaker with the Avant build-in or BL8000/6000 etc. The BL7.4 are a very dedicated centre. It needs to be accompanied by good and powerful front speakers (BL 5/9) or a BL2. If you want to compare with Avent build-in’s or BL8000/6000 you should do this based on a BL7.1/2 and not BL7.4. But I a 5.1 set-up the BL7.4 are the right choice just ensure to select the right sub/front/rear’s to go with it.

 

This is just my view and how my ears “see’s” it.

 

Ken

Thank you for your comments--very nicely done.  Would you please give me your opinion on the following set up: The new BV 7, 7.4, and BL 3s in the front and rear.  I am contemplating the previously mentioned set up when the BV 7 gets to the USA.  

Hi Rd,

BV7 + BL7.4 + 4*BL3 will be a great set-up, but you need to add a BL2 for the bottom.  This was exactly the set-up I was planning for, but for the reasons below I choosed otherwise.

1) Form an design perspective I would really try to avoid a separate sub. Not that I don’t like the design of BL2, but I would not fit well in my living room (and never be accepted by my vife).

2) I don’t like the BL3’s on the floor stand. My rears are mounted high on a wall and that looks great, but on a floor stand they look like a lot of other “satellite” kind of speakers (in my mind).

3) The price of 2*BL3 + BL2 is very much the same as 2*BL9’s

4) Tech specs of 2*BL3 + BL2 is very much the same as 2*BL9’s, but the BL9 are (in my mind) more precise and detailed in the bass. (the BL2 probably rock the room a bit more, but the BL9 is more than enough for me)

These was the main reasons for my decisions, but I’m sure you planned set-up will be very very closed in sound and then is only what type of design you like most as the price is the same.

Ken

Ken

 

Thank you for your views, they are appreciated.

 

Maybe the 7.4 sounds to clinical for my retro ears years of car audio have tainted my hearing somewhat

 

The only new set of speakers I've heard are the BL3's and I wasn't hugely impressed but it was hardly the best demo with them just slapped on a wall 

 I think it's time to audition some BL9's

 

Thanks again Ken
 

Hi Craig,

You've hit a sore point for many of us.

B&O design is now limited to the exterior. The insides are a whole lot of the me-too generic garbage which you can find for 1/10th the price from Chinese manufacturers.

In the 70's and 80's, an engineer could justifiably admire the simple and efficient circuit design of their equipment. Today, I open up the modern stuff, and I just say "So What?"

You can fool some of the people all of the time, all of the people some of the time, but.......   well you know the rest.

I have my small collection of the best that B&O ever produced (1970's), and doubt whether I will ever have a desire to own their new stuff! 

I like it! I must confess to harbouring similar thoughts! However I wouldn't write off all the new products!

However I am still to find a system I like listening to more than my Beogram 4000, Beomaster 4400 and LS3/5A + AB1 speakers. It just produces lovely sounding music. I do have Pentas and they are great but don't really work in this set up. Good in my surround system!

Glad it is not just me!

Apart from your quad equipment, what do you have?

I was first introduced to B&O in 1973. My late uncle had a BM1400 (Moldenhawer design) and BG1000. When he died, we very proudly accepted this inheritance, and enjoyed it for about 5 years, until someone decided one night that they needed it more than we did.

By that time, I had finished school and just started Engineering at University, and was "reasonably" independent financially, so I blew my savings on a brand-new BM3400, BG3400 with CD4 demodulator (which I installed myself), a Beocord 2200, and a pair of Beovox 5702's from NuSound in London - the more greying among us will remember them - now long gone - I still have the original sales slip.

I then decided that I needed 4 speakers for Quad reproduction, so I purchased a pair of used S45's, and about a year thereafter, another pair of used S45's. The 5702's went into storage.

That system was my pride and joy for about 20 years, looked after like a baby. Then during a move in 1995, the BM3400 disappeared. I think the movers took a fancy to it, but we could prove nothing. At that time I sold the 5702's to an ecstatic associate.

I wrestled long and hard how to replace it (remember that was before the internet and Ebay), and finally settled on a BeoCenter 9300, which I bought from Frank Harvey's in Coventry.

I was never impressed with its sound quality compared to the BM3400.

One day, I decided to open it up, and see what really existed behind the fancy mirrored aluminium.

I was very disappointed - components of very medium quality, and horror of horrors, an output amplifier stage composed of a pair of middle-of-the-road Sanyo op-amps. B&O didn't even bother to use Sanyo's top-of-the-line op-amps! No discrete components to be found anywhere.

Anyway, while the box was open, I did some modifications to the circuit, exchanged some capacitors with Nichicon Audio Grade caps, which has improved the sound somewhat, and also did the mod to fix the common CD transport failure.

Then I wanted a BG9000 to go with it, which I picked up second-hand, and restored it to new mechanical condition. I decided that it wasn't a good match cosmetically, and sold it to Chris (medogsfat) who, at last communication, is still very happy with it.

I then found a NOS BG4500, for a steal. To prevent future problems (after having been in storage so long), I replaced all the electrolytics, and upgraded the RIAA amp's caps with WIMA polypropylene units. I invested in a Soundsmith SMMC2 for it. A substantial improvement in sound quality.

Well, now I had a reasonable quality matched setup - BC9300, BG4500, and 4 S45's.

The BG3400 was sold to a collector in Japan, and I thought to myself - that's it - I've now ridded myself of the need for a BM3400.

Any engineer worth his salt, never stops tinkering, and on one of my trips to Germany, I found an old HiFi store, with lots of junk. He had 2 dismembered BM3400's with broken wood panels, filthy and ready for the junkyard. I couldn't resist.

So started a year-long project to bring them back up to snuff - I figured that if I could get one decent one out of the two, I'd be doing well. As it turns out, I didn't have to cannibalize any parts, and with Martin Dillen's expert advice, and about $150 in transistors, diodes, lamps, and tons of capacitors, they were both restored to new condition.

I now had the clear, powerful sound which I remembered so well.

I sold one of them to a collector in the USA, for a nice profit.

Later on, in Germany again, I found a BM1600 (the updated version of the 1400), cosmetically near-perfect, but shot electronically - just what I like. After a full restoration (including a new rosewood cabinet built from scratch), this BM1600 (with homebuilt speakers) has taken pride of place in my electronics lab as my entertainment centre.

So now I have a BC9300, BG4500, and 4 S45's in the living-room (I'm building a TC-Sounds Subwoofer to go with it). I must be honest that I have no particular attraction to these newer components, now that I have my BM3400 again, and I go through periods of wondering whether to sell them.

In our bedroom, we have the BM3400, BC2200, a Philips CDB-650 (first-generation CD from 1985), and a pair of homebuilt speakers. This is the system I love the most. I am looking for a BG6000 to go with it, and at some point I'll modify the BM3400 with a pre-amp-out jack, so I can connect the subwoofer.

Over 30 years of tinkering, learning and enjoying!

 

Very nice tale! Do you listen to many quad records? I was always very disappointed in the quality.

The 9300 is also a disappointment - it is really an Ouverture which has been put into a 9500 box. I am afraid the Sanyo amplifiers were pretty common for the audio range at this time - no nice Darlington transistors!  I had the 2000 and 3400 Beomasters, both of which were very sweet sounding. Very under rated in my opinion.

I use the CDX as my main CD player or a CD5500 - thanks Darren! -  both of which are very pleasant. I did actually have a Philips 650 at one point as i had a 5000 system and sent back the CD50 for being too noisy in operation!

@yachadm

What a wonderful story. Congratulations with your passion. Right now I'm listening to the reissue vinyl "Kind of Blue" session -- and I can't believe my ears. Just got the record in the door - wonderful background music for enjoying your story!
(On classic equipment, from when the components were all super-par).

My favorite Quad records are Enoch Light and the Light Brigade, by Project 3. I think I have the whole CD4 collection, but I'm not sure. I also have some CD4 RCA Instrumentals. Then I have an assortment of SQ4-matrix records. I certainly can't complain about the sound quality of the Project 3 records - I think they're wonderful, and they're my first choice when I want to unwind.

IMHO, I think the BM3400 is the finest-sounding B&O receiver ever made. For its "measly" 2x30W output, it puts out a clarity and punch of sound, which I can't say I've heard in any other B&O units - or is that just because of my modifications ;-) ? As you said, a very under-appreciated unit.

I'm also a member of the Yahoo group - 70sAudioMindset, and those members are hot on 1970's Pioneer, Marantz and Sansui's. Their enthusiasm for those units keeps the ebay prices very high. If the BM3400 had the same enthusiastic following, the ebay prices would be sky-high.

The BM3400 is very easy to maintain, with all components readily accessible, and circuits easy to follow. This, its low price, and its sound quality, makes it a very desirable unit to own and enjoy for the future.

I think the Beolab 7-4 sounds like a empty can of soda! The 7-2 is the ***!

The 3400 does lend itself to servicing as it comes apart very nicely. I still prefer the 4400 which has more punch still and also the Beolab 5000 system which is just so well made. I think you have been lucky with your CD4 records - if someone has played them with an unsuitable stylus, it tends to wreck them. I think we need some pictures!

Amazing! Thanks for sharing your story Yachadm.

Hey great thread, i've learnt a new angle here today about the difference and incompatibility between the new ALT speakers and pre - ALT. However i could have sworn that i have seen a picture where there is a tv with an ALT centre speaker, with other non - ALT speakers such as the beautiful BL8000.. never mind, i just hope that having 4000's as rears will be acceptable with ALT up front.

David,

If you don't wan't to use Spearker 4 mode for music this the BL4000 shoudl be fine as reas with some ALT sperkars in front. But i'm shure yoy will notis a big difference in sound from front and rear if you are using Speaker 4 mode. Also some concers in 5.1 use the rears a lot (Jarre in China) and here you will also notis a difference.

Ken