I would like to know what I can likely expect as to the sound quality difference between a Beogram 8000 and Beogram 8002.

Currently my Beogram 8000 is running a MMC6000 and sound slightly superior to my Beogram 8002 with its MMC3 cartridge.

Martin (Dillen) did a SUPERB job in rebuilding the BG 8000 motherboard and then was patient as Mother Teresa with me explaining how I needed to create a hard short to the capacitor in the processor to get my turntable working properly.  Thank you Martin.

I am currently chasing a MMC2 on eBay and if I am successful in this endeavor I will likely be looking for a MMC20CL for my Beogram 8000.

These old cartridges age, as is the case with my MMC4000, but all thing considered with a decent MMC2 ‘vis a vis a decent MMC20CL how should these turntables fare?

Right now, IF I had to compare my 6 Beograms in order of sound quality it would be: Beogram 4000 (used MMC20CL), Beogram 4004 (NOS MMC20CL), Beogram 8000 (used MMC6000), Beogram 4002 (used MMC20CL), Beogram 8002 (used MMC3), and Beogram 1602 (used 4000).

So Beogram 8000 or Beogram 8002 is there a real difference? (other than number of plays….)

Jeff

Hi Jeff

I may be a little off topic..but here goes

I have an almost mint beogram 7000 with an original MMC2 stylus (which appears to be in good condition).

I've just purchased a Sound Smith SMMC 1 stylus and the difference in sound quality is incredible. Even worn vinyl is now of almost CD quality and good condition vinyl sounds far superior!!!

You really need to get a new stylus and try it in the different beograms to pick the difference i'd suggest.

Hope this is in some way helpful

Regards

David Coyne

Hi David,

I've heard very good things about Soundsmiths. Thank you for the tip. Sooner or later I am sure I will try them.

Jeff

HiFi Choice waxed lyrical about the 8002, as at long last the deck had a decent support for the record - the hard ribs of the 8000 causing record damping problems in extremis.

The 8002 (and 6002) were lovely, refined and gentle sounding decks and I'm pleased to read that Soundsmiths re-building of the cartridges gives them almost CD life and sparkle, something my 20EN and CL's seem to lack in typical UK temperatures ;) 

I have been very interested in this exchange as my Beogram 8002 has been something of a disappointment, no doubt in part because of its MMC3 cartridge.

I have given a great deal of thought as to a realistic comparison as to my six Beograms and the results are as follows:

1. Beogram 4000/used MMC20CL/McIntosh 2255
2. Beogram 4004/NOS MMC20CL/McIntosh 2255
3. Beogram 8000/used MMC6000/ Beomaster 4500
4. Beogram 4002/used MMC20CL/Beomaster 2400
5. Beogram 8002/used MMC3/Beomaster 4500
6. Beogram 1602/used MMC4000/Beomaster 4500

While I am ever so pleased that the iconic Beogram 4000 performs so well, at the same time I am really disheartened that the totally refurbished Beogram 8002 fares so poorly in comparison. This is NOT what I expected when I purchased this 8002.

The difference between the 4000 and the 4004 is very slight, but then it is an unfair comparison as the 4004 has a NOS MMC20CL.

I am well aware that the dampening deteriorates with age, but even this constant doesn’t explain fully the difference between these Beograms.

Your comments in regard to the hard ribs of the 8000 causing damping problems…. I had not heard this before.

I am working on finding a suitable MMC2 or MMC1 for my 8002 and have great hope that the change of cartridge will make an amazing difference.

Jeff

Jeff,

Looks like you have an excellent collection of rare Beogram turntables.  I am very envious because I decided to go back to vinyl recently and I'm looking for a nice linear tracking B&O table.  They are hard to come by even on eBay especially for the ones that still work properly.  8002 was my dream turntable in the childhood and I'd love to own one some day.  If your experiment doesn't turn out to your liking you can dump it on me and I'll pay top dollars.  

Modesty aside, I have achieved a very nice collection of B&O equipment with a great deal of help from the fine members of BeoWorld.

Thank you for the most welcome compliment.

The 8002 is legend, but so far I have seen little evidence to this claim to fame.

I am floundering in my search of a really good MMC1 or MMC2 for my turntable, so anything is possible.

Jeff

I know im repeating myself.. but honestly, I was very disappointed with the mint beogram 7000 i bought which had an original MMC2. It now sounds incredible with a new stylus. I'd suggest the issue is probably the stylus.

if you were closer I'd loan you one!

David Coyne

Piaf:

I am floundering in my search of a really good MMC1 or MMC2 for my turntable, so anything is possible.

Jeff,

If you are set on an MMC2, I have sent a PM/email.

Thx,

Hi,

By the way, could anyone confirm that the MMC20EN is a rather warm (I didn't say dull) cartridge?

Or is the warm sound down to wear (although it looks fine under the microscope), or contacts, or a capacitance problem?

Compared to my other cartridges (Goldring 1022, Eroica MC, A&R P77) it is full bodied with excellent bass but rather soft (detailed nonetheless) up higher.

I've got a Beogram 6006.

Thanks!

Not dull at all. I know people who prefer it to the CL. The SP15, 4000, EN and MMC3 are all pretty similar.

Oh Peter,

How can you say that? The MMC20EN is simply NOT in the same league as the MMC20CL. The crisp highs, the incredible basses…. the sheer reality of the sound.

Ditto the MMC3, which although I fully admit my bias sounds like crap. True the damping may have hardened a bit in my personal MMC3, but at the same time my best sounding Beogram, the Beogram 4000 is running one of my personal MMC20CL cartridges which I replaced (but kept) in 1979.

I have one of your aforementioned MMC4000’s which I am using with my Beogram 1602 and it is mediocre, but only if one is being truly kind.

In addition I have a MMC6000 that I am using with my Beogram 8000 which sounds decent, but arguably not great. Once again I fear the damping has hardened with age as the MMC6000 should be in the same class as the MMC20CL.

I also have a MMC20EN and a MMC20E sitting in a drawer, the former was underwhelming while the latter was REALLY unremarkable in the extreme.

However, I will cheerfully agree that the MMC 4000, MMCEN, and MMC3 are all very similar.

Jeff

Chartz,

Warm best describes the intoxicating and mellow sound that the Beomaster 4500 exudes with each and every note…. each note a true masterpiece in its own right.

Warm could also describe the sound quality of the S-75 speaker, but warm in a cartridge to me says DULL.

Peter has forgotten more about B&O equipment than I have ever known but I wonder out loud if Peter is thinking about the MMC20EN when it was new, where I am sure the MMC20EN was impressive, as compared to 30 years later with the damping hardening on all these cartridges.

I would STRONGLY suggest a good used MMC20CL or one of the fine replacement products offered by Soundsmiths.

Jeff

David,

I am sure you are right about the sound quality of Soudsmiths, but I just hate their look. I know the dampening hardens with age and we are all battling with time before all the B&O cartridges become useless.

Still some have unexpected life in them.

Jeff

Thanks for the answers!

I've augmented the capacity load to 330 pF which has risen treble level. But yes, I'd definitely like to try a CL or a Soundsmith.

I also contemplate a re-tip by Axel, which comes very cheap at 99€.

What do you think? 

Tim Jarman actually prefers the sound of the 20EN to the CL. I prefer the CL but it has to be warm! My favourite cartridge of all was the MMC6000 but they seem to go off - all the ones I have now are badly worn whereas all bar one of my CLs look pristine. I do think the suspensions harden though - if you try them with CD4 records which have to track at 45kHz, not many can do it. There is a lot to be said for the SP12 by the way! And the SP2 that Axel modified for me via Frede is also very good!

How do you know they are busted?

My MMC20EN is warm, that is a fact.

The stylus looks fine but I am not a cartridge 'Man of the Art'!

It sails through the most difficult 'torture' tracks with confidence, but it is warm!

I still got Beogram 6006 and 8002.

I got MMCL20 NOS which sounds wonderfull in all details on the 6006 through a Beomaster 6000 and Beovox S120 speakers. The 6006 came with a MMC20EN mounted and it sounds god. There is alot of life left in it but I use it as a spare. I also have MMC20S and E but they sound rather dull compared to the MMC20 range.

The Beogram 8002 uses a Soundsmith MMC2 as I had to get one the could fit. At present it waits for a retip at Axel in Germany. I can't really tell that my 8002 sounds better or worse to the 6006 despite using a Beomaster 8000. They both sound really god. Dillen has done service on them all so the Beograms are in good form.

Hello,

Well I've just  tried my MMC20EN on a second Beogram 8000 and it sounds quite bright and dynamic... with the same cable!

Not so on my 6006—it is much warmer.

What is going on???

I really believe that the largest issue here is hardening suspensions rather then stylus wear.

My best sounding turntable as previously mentioned is the iconic Beogram 4000 with one of my very used (old) MMC20CL cartridges which I didn’t discard when my B&O dealer felt it was time to purchase a new one in the seventies. Somehow this MMC20CL is really holding its own against the rest, including a NOS MMC20CL that I have in my Beogram 4004.

The sound quality between the two is easy to differentiate as both are hooked up to my McIntosh 2255 and Linn Isobaric/McIntosh ML-2 speakers. Given the same record the 4000 has a slight, but definite advantage over the 4004.

The Beogram 8002 has been an utter disappointment as if falls at the bottom of the list in sound comparisons. I fault the MMC3 cartridge for this and have acquired an MMC2 from a fellow BeoWorld member. I look forward to its arrival so that I can see what all the kudos in regard to the 8002 are about.

That Soundsmith makes an excellent cartridge is not in question, it is the appearance that puts me off.

In regard to Peter's comment that his favorite cartridge is the MMC6000, I can confirm that it is an excellent sounding cartridge, but mine is clearly suffering from suspension hardening. Still it sounds better than the MMC3….

Jeff

Hi,

I got for nothing an MMC20CL whose sapphire cantilever is broken.

Axel tells me he can rebuild it for 150 €.

So what do I do? A re-tip of my (dull but unworn) MMC20EN (99 €) or the CL?

Will I get the MMC20CL sound everyone talks about?

Thanks again.

The innards of the cartridge are identical - I would have the CL rebuilt.

Hello everyone,

Well I didn't take the re-tip route, I got an SMMC20EN from the US of A.

The sound is great, but not warm. As I said somewhere else, digitally recorded LPs sound EXACTLY like the CD, maybe a tiny bit better - although it doesn't really make sense, does it? At first it was a bit aggressive but now it is well run-in, it just sounds right. I just got myself a new LP, the Mr Atomic Count Basie one, 1957 mono recording and it sounds so good. The CD is awful (of course?). I'm also re-discovering my fantastic Beatles LPs, whose CD versions are simply dreadful too.

Anyway I still have that MMC20CL. Would I be pleasantly surprised or simply disappointed?

Comparing the 20CL with the 20EN I think you would be pleasantly surprised by the 20CL.

From a technical and objective viewpoint it has several advantages.

A Contact Line stylus means better contact with the groove and therefore a more accurate sound reproduction and less distortion and as a benefit less damage to your records. If I remember correctly the tip mass of the 20CL is smaller meaning less pressure of the needle is needed, at the same level of distortion. Another benefit to record preservation.

A cantilever made of sapphire (original) or ruby (if it is a smmc) which means a truer reproduction of sound because it is more rigid and can  forward the vibrations from the stylus to the magnetic field inside the cantilever more accurately than one made of aluminium, which could be the explanation for the apparently warmer sound of the 20EN.

In my personal experience the the MMC20CL (and this goes for the MMC1 and MMC2 as well) is much more "open" in the higher spectrum of the tonal range giving a sense of being closer to the music or of "being there".

By the way I took the refurbishment route, because the original cartridges look much better.

Best regards

hpersson:

By the way I took the refurbishment route, because the original cartridges look much better.

Very true, but I've got used to that black prominence at the end of my arm. When funds allow, I will have mine re-tipped too, and I will give my conclusions then.

Happy New Year to you and your families!