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ARCHIVED FORUM -- April 2007 to March 2012
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This is the first Archived Forum which was active between 17th April 2007 and 1st March February 2012

 

Latest post 06-29-2009 7:20 PM by benjnz. 64 replies.
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  • 06-23-2009 5:31 PM In reply to

    • moxxey
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    • South West, UK
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    Re: How hard is Bang & Olufsen hit ?

    wonderfulelectric:

    If high end hifi companies Meridian, B&W and Goldmund can still thrive..

    How do you know they are thriving? Do you have access to their company accounts?

    One of the key differences between those brands and B&O is that B&O decided to go down the 'you can only get our equipment from our stores' approach, which worked when customers were more naive (and many stores still attract customers, with too much money, who are still naive), but works less well with the intense competition we have these days. B&W allow their speakers to be stocked by different A/V stores where customers can go and compare products. With B&O, you get a B&O-only experience and there's only so much 'we're the greatest' that you can take when you talk to a B&O salesman.

  • 06-23-2009 6:08 PM In reply to

    Re: How hard is Bang & Olufsen hit ?

    vikinguk:

    Where are the market advantages that Apple would obtain from buying B&O? List the advantages? What technological advantages do B&O have that Apple would want? What key trademarks do they own that Apple do not own?

    These are the primary reasons for any company takeover. Apple doesn't go around buying companies 'for the sake of it' or because it needs to 'help someone out'. Business is business and B&O wouldn't pass any Apple due diligence.

    Hi Moxxey,

    Good points. Guess I was thinking in terms of Apple being able to apply its innovative technological approaches to reduce B&O costs and to introduce B&O to a larger audience. An easier way for Apple to move into AV although the reality would ultimately be that Apple probably wouldn't be interested in buying Panasonic etc components for re-engineering in the way that B&O do. If B&O went under how likely is it that the likes of Apple would pick up the name and core business for little outlay from the receivers? B&O shares are now only a fraction of their worth of two years ago and it will get very difficult for them to raise cash again as they did this year.

    Graham

    B&O sales within Apple stores another approach. How many exclusive franchised B&O dealerships will revert to head office ownership for not fulfilling their fee obligations? How many will ultimately close? B&O may yet have to backtrack on their exclusive 'dealer with a locked door' approach and look to having displays again in the likes of John Lewis (which they did many years ago.)

     

    I used to be indecisive, now I'm not so sure. [W C Fields]

  • 06-23-2009 6:13 PM In reply to

    • moxxey
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    Re: How hard is Bang & Olufsen hit ?

    vikinguk:

    B&O sales within Apple stores another approach.

    That's not going to happen. Where's the benefit to Apple? Think about these things! :)

    Can you imagine B&O saying "we can't shift our own products in our own stores....but do you mind moving some of your popular and profitable Apple products out of your store and making room for our loss-making £10,000 TV, please?"

  • 06-23-2009 6:16 PM In reply to

    • moxxey
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    Re: How hard is Bang & Olufsen hit ?

    vikinguk:

    If B&O went under how likely is it that the likes of Apple would pick up the name and core business for little outlay from the receivers?

    In case I missed something, but where's the relationship between Apple and B&O? ie. what interest does B&O have as a brand for Apple? My guess is that it's way down their list on brands or companies to consider purchasing.

    The only companies Apple purchase are tech companies that can bolster their existing or forthcoming products. Normally small tech companies that specialise in chipsets or software.

  • 06-23-2009 6:23 PM In reply to

    Re: How hard is Bang & Olufsen hit ?

    moxxey:

    vikinguk:

    B&O sales within Apple stores another approach.

    That's not going to happen. Where's the benefit to Apple? Think about these things! :)

    Can you imagine B&O saying "we can't shift our own products in our own stores....but do you mind moving some of your popular and profitable Apple products out of your store and making room for our loss-making £10,000 TV, please?"

    Only after Apple has improved B&O, improving quality and dropping prices.  (I wish!) Then again I can see that Apple doesn't need B&O and has the cash and size to do whatever it wants in its own right. But, like washing powder, different brands even under one ownership widens the market for the same content....................... Forgetting Apple, the question is... would you invest in B&O at present low share prices, confident that you will get a good return in the long-term?

    I used to be indecisive, now I'm not so sure. [W C Fields]

  • 06-23-2009 6:48 PM In reply to

    Re: How hard is Bang & Olufsen hit ?

    Cutting Temp staff is a positive move - B&O needs to cut fixed costs now.

    As for a takeover by another company - very unlikely - companies are preparing for the 2nd and 3rd economic dip (some analysts say the 1st will look like a bump in comparison)

    B&O may have to exit this market altogether [:'(] to survive.

  • 06-23-2009 7:43 PM In reply to

    Re: How hard is Bang & Olufsen hit ?

    I think B&O just need to do what they are good at. The last few years have demonstrated quite clearly what they are not good at. Feedback from dealers and discussions here on Beoworld all have contributed to this. They need to put much more effort into products rather than knocking out a quick succession of failures. The Serene, Serenata, BeoSound 6, BeoSound 1 and BeoSound 3 particularly are not well thought out at all.

    In a different thread I have said that I like the BeoSound 3 and use it often. This is true but in this thread I want to make the point that B&O should be more individual with all their products. The BeoSound 3 and BeoSound 1 look practically identical apart from size and the addition of CD. I don't like this approach and find it lazy. They both have the same speaker grille, the same automatic aerial, the same finish .. what sets them apart? The older BeoSound Century was a far more interesting and enticing product and still is by todays standards.

    As for the Serene, well I also bought one of those too, but only because I was offered one for a price I thought was justifiable. I would never have bought it brand new. The Serenata has been even more of a disaster and the BeoSound 6 is arguably the worst of them all. What is B&O about it? Nothing. It looks like any other MP3 out there aside from the iPods. Writing Samsung on on the products was a huge mistake but B&O already know that so hopefully we won't be discussing that again.

    I am personally looking forward to the new BeoCom 5 as I have always liked their phones but even in this case you have to question why they are coming out with their first handsfree landline (speaker phone capable) so late? This technology is ancient. What the heck have they been thinking?

    It is most perplexing trying to understand how a company as pioneering and groundbreaking as B&O can make such senseless decisions.

    I live in hope and to be honest I do feel that B&O will do something special because they usually do but why leave it till the last minute? Rather like the student who starts their dissertation at the last minute .. myself included from my student days! But surely academia and business are two very different areas.

    Simon.

  • 06-24-2009 2:48 AM In reply to

    • moxxey
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    Re: How hard is Bang & Olufsen hit ?

    The_Beonic_Man:

    In a different thread I have said that I like the BeoSound 3 and use it often.

    I agree. I also use mine a lot. The problem with the BS3 for me is it's lacking features. I needs Beo4 support (so you can quickly mute it from a distance, say if you're in an office or something) and you should be able to set an alarm that wakes you each morning. It could also do with being a tad shorter, simply for balance!

  • 06-24-2009 4:48 AM In reply to

    Re: How hard is Bang & Olufsen hit ?

    moxxey:

    wonderfulelectric:

    If high end hifi companies Meridian, B&W and Goldmund can still thrive..

    How do you know they are thriving? Do you have access to their company accounts?

    One of the key differences between those brands and B&O is that B&O decided to go down the 'you can only get our equipment from our stores' approach, which worked when customers were more naive (and many stores still attract customers, with too much money, who are still naive), but works less well with the intense competition we have these days. B&W allow their speakers to be stocked by different A/V stores where customers can go and compare products. With B&O, you get a B&O-only experience and there's only so much 'we're the greatest' that you can take when you talk to a B&O salesman.

    Well. The fact that Meridian acquired Sooloos not long ago, and both B&W and Goldmund are rapidly gaining market share. I don't think that having their own boutiques is the problem. Many brands do that. I think it is more like the quality of the products themself is just not up to par. Selling just design wouldn't work nowadays because new equipments nowadays have already factored in good design equals to bigger appeal methodology.

    PS. I think some of the product developers are dumb. Take for example the besound 5, if a computer was to be used to upload music then why even bother building in a hard drive in the first place? They could have simply built a high end DAC/controller, where you simply pull music off the network attached storage. Who wants to upload their music twice? Weird concept.

     

  • 06-24-2009 9:07 PM In reply to

    • blue2th
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    Re: How hard is Bang & Olufsen hit ?

    i do not believe that B&O should start selling their products in non-B&O stores.  this will definitely dilute the image of a premium product range.

    having said that, there is a "compromise" for wider audience by having a store in store concept with major premium department stores, where there would be a B&O "corner" with B&O only products.

    I believe this concept exists in various parts of the world, in Australia it is available in David Jones as a separate "store". 

    I would also hate it for B&O to follow B&W's lead (they now manufacture their producs in China, granted the core drivers may still be made in the UK).  

    Any prestigious brand that does this looses my immediate support as a prestigious brand.  I am prepared to pay a premium knowing it is still made in the country of origin and as soon as they make anything in Asia in the name of increasing profits (i never see the prices come down), i boycott the brand altogether.

    Apple pulls it off by manufacturing in China, but they are feeding the masses and as said above, they are selling something that's $400, not $14,000!  it's also pointless if B&O became a mass marketed product.  

  • 06-25-2009 5:27 AM In reply to

    • moxxey
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    • Joined on 04-14-2007
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    Re: How hard is Bang & Olufsen hit ?

    blue2th:

    I would also hate it for B&O to follow B&W's lead (they now manufacture their producs in China, granted the core drivers may still be made in the UK).  

    Any prestigious brand that does this looses my immediate support as a prestigious brand.

    Well, if they produced modern products that worked flawlessly, I'd also share your enthusiasm for manufacturing in Denmark. Problem is, that there are so many sw-related issues with many of their modern products that they couldn't do any worse manufacturing in China.

    Ironically the BV8-40 is somewhat a 'better' and more stable product than the BV7-40, yet it's half the price. The BS5/BM5 feels like it was released 10 months too early, yet it was first previewed Summer 2007. What have B&O been doing from Summer 2007 through to January 2009? How did they manage to produce a product which is about 2/3rds complete and use end-users have to be 'happy' that new software is on the way to add extra 'features' that should have been in the original release.

    How are us end-users happy that we spend £4000 on something that is still in development? One thing B&O users seem to have in common is a lot of patience. We seem so overwhelmed with the fact we can afford the products that we don't care too much if they crash, need rebooting or aren't actually complete on purchase.

  • 06-25-2009 6:05 AM In reply to

    • Kokomo
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    Re: How hard is Bang & Olufsen hit ?

    "I am personally looking forward to the new BeoCom 5 as I have always liked their phones but even in this case you have to question why they are coming out with their first handsfree landline (speaker phone capable) so late? This technology is ancient. What the heck have they been thinking?

    Simon"

    Don't bother, buy this:-

    http://tinyurl.com/qw4cxu

     

     

  • 06-25-2009 9:28 AM In reply to

    • k984942
    • Top 500 Contributor
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    • Joined on 11-10-2008
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    Re: How hard is Bang & Olufsen hit ?

    I couldn't agree more, hence I've so far stayed away from most of the modern stuff!

    It would kill me to spend £10,000 on a TV only to face so so many problems which, lets face it, shouldn't be there! This is not a PC we're talking about, its a TV! I have never heard of so many problems from a TV! Not to say I approve of the situation with the BS5, but at least it is a PC based device so software issues are not unknown!

    I take further offence to the dealers who are a complete waste of time in my experience. I've visited 3 in the UK (I know thats not really as representative sample) and two of them were awful, and I mean awful! Their facts were wrong, they were totally uninterested with helping me maintain the B&O I have and actually lied on one occassion (no updated STB-C IC for the Avant - there have been 2 since I was given this bull!). The general attitude is that the customer should be thankful the goods are being sold to them, and not that they should be thankful we're still buying their overpriced rubbish!

    I am in the fortunate position that (so far) the economic downturn hasn't effected me and I have money in my pocket waiting for something decent to buy from B&O.

    The problem is I am now at the stage where:

    a. I have little faith in any new products until at least a year into production

    b. I can't find a dealer who I want to do business with! I would actually resent sending anymore of my hard earned to my local shop, and the one dealer who I've dealt with who was good is half way up the country!

    You're not making it easy for us B&O!

     

     

    32" RF VCR Avant, 2 x 28" VCR Avant, DVD1, Beocom 6000, Beo5, A9 Keyring!

     

  • 06-25-2009 12:58 PM In reply to

    Re: How hard is Bang & Olufsen hit ?

     

     Forgetting Apple, the question is... would you invest in B&O at present low share prices, confident that you will get a good return in the long-term?

    So does anyone on this site (maybe our Danish members?) have any real insight into the current share price of B&O and whether they would be a good investment at present prices? We have one positive reference in this thread to the views of a Danish bank, but the general view elsewhere (US UK financial comment) seems to be hold or sell. Are there any brokers amongst us who could add comment via the General Forum (or even start a B&O investor forum???????)

    Graham

    I used to be indecisive, now I'm not so sure. [W C Fields]

  • 06-25-2009 1:18 PM In reply to

    Re: How hard is Bang & Olufsen hit ?

    If I had the money... I would invest in B&O products instead of shares... :-)

    The race for quality has no finish line- so technically, it's more like a death march.

  • 06-25-2009 1:54 PM In reply to

    Re: How hard is Bang & Olufsen hit ?

    B&O went up in tune with the increasing availability of easy credit, and crashed when that stopped being available, just like most things in the segment. One could claim that in the feeding frenzy period, when people were throwing money at everthing premium and willingly paying a lot, B&O didn't get the pay-off one would expect, as the share plateaued, where some other luxury providers outpaced the segment.

    Stock moved up today, on light trading. A new fiscal year about to start, turning the page, and with the new CEO's policies beginning to take hold.

     

    Here's the 5 year chart.

     


  • 06-25-2009 2:23 PM In reply to

    Re: How hard is Bang & Olufsen hit ?

    I agree with the general sentiment, the products just haven't been good enough - where are the new design icons?

    I can't think of any lately that stands out from the crowd - possible with the exception of the BEO5.

    My smaller recent purchases the serene, serenata, BS3 have all had to go back for repair – the service I get is superb but I think the dealerships must be frustrated with the standard of the products they have to sell.

  • 06-26-2009 3:43 AM In reply to

    Re: How hard is Bang & Olufsen hit ?

    I visited my dealer this week, I had three things on my list: DVD1, Beo5 and ML cable. The first was sent out to be serviced, Beo5's was not in storage, and when I finally got to the ML cable, I was amazed at he didn't have any of it!

    He told me he's not allowed to have any stock at all at the moment, because of the "business climate". Bad for business I guess, if you don't have even basic things in store? I understand not wanting to have a BV9 or BL5's in storage, but Beo5 and ML cable...? I found it a bit strange. 

    Anyway I ordered the stuff from him, but if I weren't true to his shop, there are 2 more B&O sellers one some 200m away, the other 1km away. Perhaps they follow the same trend too?

     

    -Andreas

     

    BLab5, BLab5000, BLab8000, BV10, BS9000, BS3, Beo5, Beo4, BLink1000, BLink5000, BLink7000, A2, A8, Form2

     

     

     

  • 06-26-2009 4:05 AM In reply to

    • Alex
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    Re: How hard is Bang & Olufsen hit ?

    How hard is Bang & Olufsen hit ?


    Like USS Enterprise with shields down.

  • 06-26-2009 7:29 AM In reply to

    • plagente
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    Re: How hard is Bang & Olufsen hit ?

    APPLE will NEVER buy B&O.

     

    Apple's strategy is by far very different from B&O.

    They have a premium tag on their price, but it is still acceptable for most of them. 

    There's "value for money".

     

    B&O does not have anymore "value for money". 20 KE for the BV9 which is a revamped panasonic...  be serious !!!

     

    BS5 (i said that 10 months ago) is a HUGE error. 

     

    But B&O is like bruce willis, it never dies.

     

    http://p-lagente.blogspot.com/

  • 06-26-2009 7:58 AM In reply to

    Re: How hard is Bang & Olufsen hit ?

    plagente:

    APPLE will NEVER buy B&O.

     

    Apple's strategy is by far very different from B&O.

    They have a premium tag on their price, but it is still acceptable for most of them. 

    There's "value for money".

     

    B&O does not have anymore "value for money". 20 KE for the BV9 which is a revamped panasonic...  be serious !!!

     

    BS5 (i said that 10 months ago) is a HUGE error. 

     

    But B&O is like bruce willis, it never dies.

     

    Agreed. Like now that things are going better for me, I wouldn't even want a B&O stereo or tv anymore. B&O is starting to feel like some upmarket Bose product. There is not much value and flexibilty for the customers to speak of. Nothing in the B&O range screams price no object construction or performance and that includes the BV9. It is not because that fact that they buy panels off the shelf and put them in their own tvs but it is the fact that they are doing so little to them to justify the price increase: I don't see no diamond or sapphire glass on their screens or top quality handpicked parts. I think the only things I will be buying in the immediate future is their house phones otherwise... it is all blah... 

    PS. I heard that Bose isn't doing so hot too. Bose was quite a respected brand in the 60s and now it just all went down the hill. See the parrallelism?

     

  • 06-26-2009 8:07 AM In reply to

    Re: How hard is Bang & Olufsen hit ?

    It's nuts and I agree with Bayerische.  I went to my dealer in Chichester yesterday to audition a pair of BL8000 and the number 2 there said that he didn't have any in - not even demo's as they were at another function?!!  Come on - this is the most popular speaker in the B & O range and my dealer didn't have any in!! 

    Re-Apple - I wanted to find out if my (free!) BS6 could hook into a pair of active loudspeakers but was told no - there wasn't a cable that could do it.  When I challenged him (extremely unhelpful person) saying there was an entry in the brochure for BeoLab 4 saying you could hook you're MP3 player into it,  he replied, Yes, you can do that with Ipods and other MP3 players but not the BS6.  GREAT!!  B & O have shot themselves in the foot!!

    I find the best advice comes from the owner of the Chichester branch (Simon) or my extremely friendly second hand specialist B & O dealer.

  • 06-26-2009 8:43 AM In reply to

    Re: How hard is Bang & Olufsen hit ?

    I'm trying to imagine a brand that isn't having this issue in some form or another. Even the beloved Apple has had to push down their prices further to respond to the realities of the current economic climate.

    But reading the two pages of this thread is like hearing the 6 blind men describing the elephant! Had you gone back in time a few years ago when things were theoretically "better" you'd find the same anecdotal evidence of success or failure. Simply because your local shop is in dire straits or high cotton doesn't mean that generalizes to the other side of the street let alone the other side of the globe.

    There is scarcely anything in this world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey. - John Ruskin

  • 06-26-2009 1:58 PM In reply to

    Re: How hard is Bang & Olufsen hit ?

    TripEnglish:

     Had you gone back in time a few years ago when things were theoretically "better" you'd find the same anecdotal evidence of success or failure. Simply because your local shop is in dire straits or high cotton doesn't mean that generalizes to the other side of the street let alone the other side of the globe.

    Guess you're right on that point. I bought my first B&O equipment (BM1200) from a dealer who had just given up his franchise when the general perception was that B&O were about to go under due to the import of Japanese Hi Fi separates. That was circa 1971! Maybe the reality is that B&O, certainly within living memory, have always lived on the brink where their prices are concerned, and they have come through several recessions. I still can't make my mind up, though, whether their shares represent a good buy at the present time or whether the risk of total financial failure is still too great.

    Graham

    I used to be indecisive, now I'm not so sure. [W C Fields]

  • 06-28-2009 9:46 AM In reply to

    Re: How hard is Bang & Olufsen hit ?

    vikinguk:

     I still can't make my mind up, though, whether their shares represent a good buy at the present time or whether the risk of total financial failure is still too great.

    So the concensus view (i.e. lack of further positive responses) seems to be that B&O are not a good investment (from a share value point)???????

    Really bad news should B&O need to raise any further funds in addition to  slashing their costs and overheads.

    (Report in the Sunday Times today suggests that the super rich are cashing-in on unwanted luxury items, with the effect that high-end boats, cars etc etc are down 30% to 50% on last years asking prices. (Maybe used B&O prices are falling too??)

    Graham

    I used to be indecisive, now I'm not so sure. [W C Fields]

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