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This is the first Archived Forum which was active between 17th April 2007 and 1st March February 2012

 

Latest post 06-02-2009 9:09 AM by TerryM. 57 replies.
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  • 05-30-2009 11:54 AM

    BV7-40 Mark IV ... second thoughts / what is the "problem"

    I recently ordered a new 40" BeoVision 7 television Mk IV sight unseen to beat the price rise.

    And then my delivery date slipped by a month and I got busy and had not been checking Beoworld ...

    ... and then on Friday night I celebrate a relative's birthday present to a SONY 46" LCD and SAMSUNG DVD player by taking around a bunch of my DVDs - I was stunned by his freeview reception quality compared to what I had seen in the B&O store - and was amazed to hear it was an old aerial

    I was even more stunned when we put on TIMELINE (sorry, it was the popular choice) and I paused the play just after the title sequence - the scene of the desert was like looking at a National Geographic 35mm slide projection [ mind you the sound on the SAMSUNG imitations of the Beolab 6000 form factor was five-h-one-t ] 

    So this morning I checked Beoworld and read Moxxey's tale of woes with HORROR !!!

    So this afternoon I visited the B&O store to do some serious checking, and tonight I abuse my baby-sitting rights at another relative's to conduct tests on an LG system.


    Here are my B&O store tests on a variety of televisions:

    * The BV8-40
    The footage from the freeeview hi-def television network still looked blocky and there appeared to be a ghosting from the left and right sides of all objects on the screen. For example, a green field of grass would look fine until you reached a person standing in the field - the colouring around the person would be distorted.  I realised the B&O generated menus suffered the exact same problem. When the internal B&O menu rendered white text on grey menu bars, there was a ghosting effect on the left and right of the letters.

    There was no DVD player attached to the BV8.

    * The BV7-40 MkIII
    Again, similar distortions as the BV8-40 were apparent around BV7-40 menu's text. Not as poor at the BV8-40. And standard def freeview through a set-top box was still chunky/blocky in parts.

    The TIMELINE test DVD I took along looked 5-h-1-t ... when I paused at the desert scene I could not make out the number plate nor the logo on the truck's grill.  The next few scenes had perspiration that look like a sheen and not separate droplets, beard stubble that looked like smudged charcoal, blood that looked like fake raspberry jam, and the villein's eyes were not startlingly ice-cold blue but a pale wishy-washy blue.

    * The BV4-65
    Again, the B&O menu text distortions were visible. However, the upscaling from standard definition appeared better.  Using an attached Blue-ray as the DVD drive again the TIMELINE test was nowhere near as good as what I had seen on the SAMSUNG/SONY.

    * The BV9
    No B&O text menu distortion problems were visible.  The Beocentre 2 player did not recognise the TIMELINE region (it was an ex-rental !! and had played successfully on 3 previous machines !!) but the store supplied SPIDERMAN 3 looked marvelous in its quality.

     

    My babysitting duty LG tests showed an equally inferior TIMELINE test to the B&O store results - of note was that the LG was driven by an cheap unknown DVD player - however the connecting cable being used seemed to be the S-video connection ... and its analogue reception was terrible, and its freeview SD reception was terrible, but its freeview HD reception was brilliant !

     

    On Sunday I shall return to the SAMSUNG/SONY setup just to make sure, but right now Moxxey's experiences are giving me second thoughts, and I am extremely puzzled by what I have seen - what is the problem with the B&O store's setups that they seem, with the exception of the BV9, to deliver results that are as bad as a 3 year old LG running via S-Video from a cheap inferior brand DVD player ...

     

    Any thoughts of collective wisdom ? 

    Tests I need to perform ? Things I need to look for ? Concepts I need to understand ? Orders I need to cancel ?

    TIA, Ed~2

    First B&O (1976) was a Beogram 1500 ... latest (2011) change has been to couple the BL11 with the BL6Ks *sounds superb*

  • 05-30-2009 6:11 PM In reply to

    • moxxey
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    Re: BV7-40 Mark IV ... second thoughts / what is the "problem"

    elephant:

    BV7-40
    Again, similar distortions as the BV8-40 were apparent around BV7-40 menu's text. Not as poor at the BV8-40. And standard def freeview through a set-top box was still chunky/blocky in parts.

    I'm not going to go through my entire thoughts again, but the BV7-40 MKIV is *worse* for standard def Freeview picture quality than the MKIII. I can't figure why. It's not just additional blockiness/pixelisation, it's also the colour rendition. It looks washed out compared to how the same standard def pictures rendered on my MKIII.

    Bizarrely it can't be the LCD panel, as high definition programmes render perfectly, with good colour etc. So, it's got to be something to do with a BS3 tweak between MKIII and MKIV. It's the only thing I can think of, as my incoming signal source has not changed.

    I've had the MKIII since December 2007, so I've watched a lot of standard definition programming. The very first thing I noticed was that the standard definition PQ was worse on this MKIV. However, now I've had it a few days, I've got used to the PQ.

    As I mentioned in the other mammoth thread, and ignoring the crashing TV as that might just be a one-off (ie my MKIV), the two other 'bad' things about the MKIV include a noisy 'internal' Blu-ray DVD player and the fact that the 'internal' player, plus the 'internal' Freeview module are now connected to the external HDMI sockets.

  • 05-30-2009 6:18 PM In reply to

    • moxxey
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    Re: BV7-40 Mark IV ... second thoughts / what is the "problem"

    elephant:

    And then my delivery date slipped by a month and I got busy and had not been checking Beoworld ...

    I didn't see that at first. By a month? How did it slip by a month? I can understand a week or two...!

    On a sidenote, my dealer uses Sky HD boxes to deliver BBC HD on their TVs and, as you can imagine, the result is an outstanding picture.

  • 05-30-2009 6:32 PM In reply to

    Re: BV7-40 Mark IV ... second thoughts / what is the "problem"

    When I was in the dealer earlier I meant to listen out for the noise of the Blue-ray player but I forgot. I couldn't hear it from a short distance but obviously that was not a proper test as the door as open, the shop was busy and noisy. I'll do it next time I am in and listen with absolute silence and all doors closed, recreating the home experience.

    I like the new menu system but only marginally, its not like its a deciding factor when buying a TV. Picture quality was an interesting one. I saw a Blu-ray film playing and noticed lots of 'diffusion' which I was told was norml for Blu-ray. I am sure this is the case, but I didn't like being diffused.

    I won't be updating to the Mark IV. I was quielty considering it if there was a big improvement.

    The new BV8-40 was very impressive however playing a Blu-ray. That was interesting to see.

    Simon. 

  • 05-30-2009 6:38 PM In reply to

    • moxxey
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    Re: BV7-40 Mark IV ... second thoughts / what is the "problem"

    BTW Simon, I wouldn't judge a TV based on the best possible image that could be displayed on-screen. A Blu-ray will look good on ANY modern 1080P TV, whether it's a Sony, Pioneer or Panasonic. The true definition of a picture is the day-to-day use, whether that's through the supplied DVB-HD 'Freeview' module or attached Sky. Again, don't judge the 'quality' of the picture based on the BBC HD preview, which the dealer insists on showing.

    It does make me smile that a customer gets to see a Blu-ray or BBC HD and the dealer says 'look at the picture quality!' as if to say that's what you get from your B&O TV when you pay £10K! Dear oh dear. The same dealer told me personally that they brought a BV8-40 home over the weekend, connected it up to their analogue aerial signal, then tried to watch the F1....and weeped. He went back to his old CRT which rendered the signal more appropriately.

    The most frustrating thing about the 'internal' MKIV Blu-ray player is that it is programmed like an external player. All the commands have to be proceeded by the yellow button! So, to play a Blu-ray after pause, you need to press yellow+GO. To move forward a chapter, it's yellow+UP etc. That's not my definition of an internal player.

  • 05-30-2009 6:48 PM In reply to

    Re: BV7-40 Mark IV ... second thoughts / what is the "problem"

    Mind boggling times with B&O at the moment.

  • 05-30-2009 6:58 PM In reply to

    Re: BV7-40 Mark IV ... second thoughts / what is the "problem"

    The_Beonic_Man:

    I like the new menu system but only marginally, its not like its a deciding factor when buying a TV. Picture quality was an interesting one. I saw a Blu-ray film playing and noticed lots of 'diffusion' which I was told was norml for Blu-ray. I am sure this is the case, but I didn't like being diffused.

    You can have the new menus if you have a MKIII BV7, it's just a SW update.

  • 05-30-2009 7:24 PM In reply to

    Re: BV7-40 Mark IV ... second thoughts / what is the "problem"

    meandmyshadow:

    The_Beonic_Man:

    I like the new menu system but only marginally, its not like its a deciding factor when buying a TV. Picture quality was an interesting one. I saw a Blu-ray film playing and noticed lots of 'diffusion' which I was told was norml for Blu-ray. I am sure this is the case, but I didn't like being diffused.

     

    You can have the new menus if you have a MKIII BV7, it's just a SW update.

    I had assumed that very same fact but when I asked the dealer about that today it was a categoric no. Apparently its a new chip that the Mark III doesn't have, hence no update. This is what I was told.

    Simon.

  • 05-31-2009 12:30 AM In reply to

    Re: BV7-40 Mark IV ... second thoughts / what is the "problem"

    I think we are still in a funny stage with LCDs TVs. Old ones playing standard content or DVD may be better then up to date ones playing the same.

     

    I run he BV8 32 which has a 720P panel with a BC2 and I have none of the picture issues discussed on this forum.

     

    Sometimes it seems the latest and greatest nips you into the butt ...

     

    JK

    BS9000, BS2300, BC2, BL2500, BL3, Bl2, BS1, BV8, BC4, A8

  • 05-31-2009 1:35 AM In reply to

    • benjnz
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    Re: BV7-40 Mark IV ... second thoughts / what is the "problem"

    Hey Elephant,

    well I can imagine your pain, and a fellow from the wrong side of the planet we do have to wait for things. However I went to our B&O store to actually find things relatively good.

    The best picture I saw was BV8-40 through inbuilt freeview HD, they've had special NZ software and its an amazing picture. Although war=tching the BV7-40 and BV9 their pictures were damn awful compared to this BV8 with the latest software n DVB HD software. They did say they were now waiting on the BV9 and BV7 to get the NZ software to get their pictures up to speed of the BV8, so to speak.

    I'm going to wait to see the BV10, which has the same BV8-40 panel, before jumping into a decision, seeing as right now for an NZ software spec currently the BV8 has the best picture

    Strange, but I'd assume AUS would probably have the same issues/sw in the pipeline Unsure

     

  • 05-31-2009 3:32 AM In reply to

    Re: BV7-40 Mark IV ... second thoughts / what is the "problem"

    An update on this afternoon's experiments repeating the SAMSUNG/SONY to remove any beer goggles effect that may have been happening on Friday night ...

    Used TIMELINE as the benchmark

    some of the movie house production logos were awful (eg Paramount - clearly showing the upscaling stretching of the stars around the mountain all had artifacts, but another CGI logo was brilliant)

    the flashing year digits (like a airport announcement board cascade) were the best for clear white of all the tests to date

    the starting scene in the desert was exactly as good as I had remembered it - you CAN read the number plate and see that it was a GMC logo

    the perspiration sheen on the body of the first victim was not as good as I remembered it, but the beard stubble was clear with each hair seemingly visible

    the blood scene was not quite as "authentic" as I recalled, but at least the "blood" looked like tomato sauce and not raspberry jam !

    however even in the "National Geographic" quality shot of the desert one could see stretch marks on the distant mountains ... if one's nose was 6" away from the 46" screen

     

    conclusion from my youngest son was that the SONY was sharpening the upscaling and that is what gave it the nice clean image

    certainly the SONY had a myriad of options for controlling picture quality that we spent well over an hour "playing" with

     

     

    so the plan is to return to B&O on Monday ....................

    First B&O (1976) was a Beogram 1500 ... latest (2011) change has been to couple the BL11 with the BL6Ks *sounds superb*

  • 05-31-2009 4:03 AM In reply to

    • moxxey
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    Re: BV7-40 Mark IV ... second thoughts / what is the "problem"

    elephant:

    conclusion from my youngest son was that the SONY was sharpening the upscaling and that is what gave it the nice clean image

    certainly the SONY had a myriad of options for controlling picture quality that we spent well over an hour "playing" with

    One thing that came to mind is the whole Beosystem 3 issue. I know dealers such a Trip and others say we get a 'bargain' when we receive the a BS3-based TV. However, the BS3 is now fairly old. It's using old Pixelworks chipset technology that might have been state-of-the-art in 2006, but less so in 2009. It's enabled competitors to overtake. Problem is that there's only so much you can do with software updates to improve picture handling.

  • 05-31-2009 5:05 AM In reply to

    Re: BV7-40 Mark IV ... second thoughts / what is the "problem"

    Just a thought, but it could be the new HD freeview module is probably using a new chipset for the HD which may not be very well tweaked for SD.

  • 05-31-2009 5:21 AM In reply to

    • moxxey
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    Re: BV7-40 Mark IV ... second thoughts / what is the "problem"

    beolife:

    Just a thought, but it could be the new HD freeview module is probably using a new chipset for the HD which may not be very well tweaked for SD.

    But that wouldn't explain why Sky SD channels, such as BBC1, offer a poorer picture on the MKIV than they did on the MKIII. Something has changed between the MKIII and MKIV and I can't figure what it is. Perhaps B&O tweaked the BS3 to 'balance' a reasonable SD picture (which is was with the MKIII) with a very excellent HD picture? Now they've gone for stunning/flawless HD and adequate SD.

    Problem is, for us Brits at least, most of our TV programming is SD! It's a shame that there isn't more emphasis on upscaling SD content, much like Channel 4 HD. As the bandwidth for this channel is higher than the regular Channel 4, the quality of the picture - even for SD content - is improved. Ok, it's far better with proper HD content, but at least it's improved.

    Watched the FA Cup Final on ITV yesterday and after 10 minutes realised I can manually program ITV HD through my Sky HD box. Switched over and the quality was 20x better. Unbelievable. Same with Eurosport HD. Watch the tennis on the regular channel, then moved across to the HD channel and it's like moving from live football streamed from Mexico circa 1980, to Blu-ray ;)

  • 05-31-2009 5:41 AM In reply to

    • benjnz
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    Re: BV7-40 Mark IV ... second thoughts / what is the "problem"

    I think Moxxey may have got something there. After all, I can imagine B&O making that point as more HD is coming online, yes SD is still v big, especially down here. It did prove itself when I was watching the BV8-40 DVB-HD with new software was stunning, however the BV7-40 with DVB-HD and the older software (they're waiting an upgrade for both BV7 & 9 in NZ) I've never seen such a dab pixelated picture on bother of the more expensive sets, same feed, just awful in fact the signal kept failing, and the BV9 was so fuzzy it was pretty soap operaish, was like someone had smeared vasoline all over the camera lens when they were filming. Not good on a set costing that much.

    Oh well hopefully they'll get is sorted and the sw will settle down.

  • 05-31-2009 5:47 AM In reply to

    • moxxey
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    Re: BV7-40 Mark IV ... second thoughts / what is the "problem"

    benjnz:

    Oh well hopefully they'll get is sorted and the sw will settle down.

    Yep. If my MKIV wasn't crashing, too, I could live with this HD/SD balance on the basis I'll watch more HD content in the future. MKIV isn't crashing anywhere near as often as it did when I first received the TV - it can go more than an hour without crashing. That and the external/internal player which is controlled via yellow+button, I find frustrating. If only they could make that internal Blu-ray player operate like the old MKIII internal player, it would be fine. I could live with it using one of my external HDMI sockets.

  • 05-31-2009 7:41 AM In reply to

    • 355f
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    Re: BV7-40 Mark IV ... second thoughts / what is the "problem"

    Ive been away for a while- hence the silence!

    If we all recal we had a long debate about HD audio, and when it was mentioned about the 'new bv7' it was clear that only the sony solution would allow to BR player to play SD discs in as good a manner- with HD audio.

    I dont think we should bang on to much about picture processing and 1080p- this is marketing hype. Being an exhibitor  18 months ago at the press release day for the Pioneer plasma- image so good- that must be the new 1080 came the opinion from our learned press friends- only to find it was 720 that was superior to anything in the room!.

    Fact is im afraid, LG and Samsung make cheap electronics and the samsung panels are not the best and they cant make  adecent blue ray at all.  LCD technology is flawed  and when OLED comes of age will throw LCD into retirement .

    The BV7 is about style for  HUGE PRICE- and one should buy it without regard to other brands because it does not and never did stack up against the competition. The picture is dark to offer a better black- as a result you gte black crush and lose all the detail.

    If one lurks around some higher end AV sites one will notice that the best balance for picture quality is to run a Panasonic commercial plasma like the pf10 or similar and match t to a processor- this gives about the best image one can get. Thats sort of what B&O have done with the bv9/bv4- if one can call that value price wise is another matter- fact is though it does not let the brand down like the lcd offerings

    Yes the new variant BV7 sounds a dissapointment - but the BV7 always was.

  • 05-31-2009 8:34 AM In reply to

    • moxxey
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    Re: BV7-40 Mark IV ... second thoughts / what is the "problem"

    355f:

    The picture is dark to offer a better black- as a result you gte black crush and lose all the detail.

    I agree with this. One of my friends tends to use my PS3 around my place and notices a massive difference between his LG and my BV7-40 (MKIII). The BV7 doesn't seem to process dark screens well within PS3 games. Some sections in games are almost impossible to play - you just can't see where you're supposed to be going! Move across to his new LG and the same game is fine. You can see you're way through the game, easily. I do agree that the BV7 tends to darken the whole screen, just to emphasise and promote a black-orientated section within a game. Mind you, it's not as bad as the old MKI BV7-32.

  • 05-31-2009 9:41 AM In reply to

    Re: BV7-40 Mark IV ... second thoughts / what is the "problem"

    Unfortunately very few Blu-Ray players have a high quality SDDVD replay capability,and those that do,with the exception of the Oppo BDP-83,tend to cost £1000+.

    Hence my reservation that B & O's decision to integrate a BD,rather than an SD,player was a wise one.

    Is the overall darkening of the BV7's screen due to a screen filter?

    I would have thought that adjustment of Picture controls would produce more shadow detail.

    I presume that the only way to test if the cause of poor SD reproduction is due to the Panel,or the BS3 processor,would be to connect an external processor to a BV7MK4.

     

  • 05-31-2009 10:06 AM In reply to

    • 355f
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    Re: BV7-40 Mark IV ... second thoughts / what is the "problem"

    It was an unwise decision to integrate it, but as has proved here, there are individuals that will buy it because it has the feature- even if it might not prove to be very good.

    The overall darkening is bought about by the screen filter, which just makes the image to dark and no amount of adjustment seems to remedy it

  • 06-01-2009 7:37 AM In reply to

    Re: BV7-40 Mark IV ... second thoughts / what is the "problem"

    Performed some more B&O store tests today 

    Took along another 3 pairs of eyes

    Looked at a BV8-40 ... got everyone's thumbs up

    Looked at a BV7-40 Mk III ... passed the TIMELINE tests

    Conclusion ?

    ... there is unfortunately variation between installations in various B&O stores 

    ... the vote of the additional 3 pairs of eyes is for the BV8-40

     

    I am going to sleep on this decision !

    First B&O (1976) was a Beogram 1500 ... latest (2011) change has been to couple the BL11 with the BL6Ks *sounds superb*

  • 06-01-2009 7:42 AM In reply to

    • moxxey
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    Re: BV7-40 Mark IV ... second thoughts / what is the "problem"

    elephant:

    Looked at a BV7-40 Mk III ... passed the TIMELINE tests

    Conclusion ?

    To be fair, I don't think you can come to any conclusion when using the MKIII for tests as, in my opinion, it was generally fine (despite what 355f says). SD was adequate, HD was decent if not 'stunning' (but slightly below MKIV standard) and upscaled SD DVDs were ok, too. However, all my negative points are all about the MKIV, not the MKIII!

    The BV8-40 that I saw performed well. It was slightly better than the MKIII they had in the store. I was reasonably impressed, more so when you take in to account the price! Mind you, hasn't that gone up 10% today?

  • 06-01-2009 7:53 AM In reply to

    Re: BV7-40 Mark IV ... second thoughts / what is the "problem"

    A hobby horse of mine.

    Are the TVs set up properly? When I brought my BV8 home, and connected it to my cable box, the image I saw was atrocious - pixellation, smudging, retardation - you name it.

    I then went into the menu of the cable box, and set up for RGB instead of PAL feed. (I'm using SCART).

    The image went to BEAUTIFUL. And as I have a Pioneer Kuro HD screen in another room, I had something to compare against. I do not feel that I'm taking a step down when watching the BV8, as I move from one room to another. With the reservation that I can watch the Kuro plasma from the side, without the image degrading - while the LCD screen requires one to be straight on when watching.

    I've been to stores where the dealers hadn't used RGB, even when they had it available. And I've been to a hotel where all the BV8s were showing a horrible image, when the RGB feed was actually available, but wasn't used.


    Worth checking. And even if you're using an HDMI connection, you still want to check that the right signal is being sent, and that it is "understood" correctly, by the BV8 or BV7.

    Have a few friends who consider me a TV-genius (far from it) because I did a simple settings tweak for them. The quality difference is night-and-day.

  • 06-01-2009 8:21 AM In reply to

    Re: BV7-40 Mark IV ... second thoughts / what is the "problem"

    soundproof... some really good points raised in that post and I have often considered getting someone in to calibrate my BV7-40 (Mark III) just so that I can be sure it is setup as it should be. Any comments about this in relation to this model TV? For all I know the TV could be setup incompletly.

    If anyone can highlight the optimum settings for my TV that would also be useful.

    Thanks,
    Simon.

  • 06-01-2009 8:35 AM In reply to

    Re: BV7-40 Mark IV ... second thoughts / what is the "problem"

    A fundamental question-is the BV7MK3/4,and the BV4/9 for that matter,capable of being ISF calibrated?

     

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