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ARCHIVED FORUM -- April 2007 to March 2012
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This is the first Archived Forum which was active between 17th April 2007 and 1st March February 2012

 

Latest post 05-27-2009 11:03 AM by cooldude. 55 replies.
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  • 05-24-2009 7:27 PM In reply to

    Re: Bang & Olufsen for the ignorant or for the connoisseur?

    I think the question/debate on price is an interesting one. If I could (which I can't presently) afford the BS5 or in fact anything from the B&O range new currently then I would even though many would say that they are over-priced. This is based upon my personal preference and not the need to justify the expense to others. If I like a product (like my Beovison 1 for example) and if I were aware of it at the time then I would have bought it because I really enjoy it.

    There are some things in the B&O range that  I would not buy (mobile phones) because  I feel that these do not really have a wealth of features, and whilst obscure and plesant to look at now, when scratched to hell in my pocket, 2 years down the line I will feel that I have wasted my money.

    One of the ways I look at it is this:

     

    Stylistically and (hopefully) technically my purchases will still "work" some years down the line, just like a Universal Geneve will over an Avia or something. However, these anaogies are also flawed, as I am sure that when someone buys a Kia over a Jaguar they do so possibly because they cannot afford a Jaguar and because they want simply to get from once place to another. When I buy a B&O televison, I am buying a television, a piece of furniture/art and something different. I imagine that those who buy a generic stack system or LCD do not ivest much emotional capital in their purchase, they probably do not expect nor will they be disappointed if in ten years they have a completely different system and the old one is broken.

     

    Looking at this from a different angle, I am not a heavy drinker and I do not really spend large amounts of money on going out - I am a pub person and normally spend far less than £40 buying rounds of drinks etc on a typical evening. That said, my friend who thinks I am mad for spending so much money on B&O (or contemplating doing so) spends often six times what I would on a good day out. Is this more of a waste of money than B&O - who can decide? I think the answer is only the person spending the money, thus if you need to justify any purchase, you should only need justify it to youself.

     

    Graham

  • 05-24-2009 9:24 PM In reply to

    Re: Bang & Olufsen for the ignorant or for the connoisseur?

    In my opinion somewhere in the middle...

    B&O are a little behind in their technology and I'm finding this very frustrating. Technology is going to move at a faster rate than it has before, and I struggle to see how B&O is going to keep up at the moment.

    So I went shopping on the weekend for a new LCD in a non-B&O store. The salesman asked me what TV I have and I told him it's a Bang & Olufsen. He then proceeded to tell me how good they are, and told me of all these features they have that I'd never heard of before such as the olds TVs following the remote, etc etc. Anyway, we were discussing my needs and I asked him if I should get a bigger screen than the one he was showing me. His response was 'think about what you will be looking at when it is switched off. The bigger the screen, the bigger the black ugly panel you'll be looking at. You don't want a huge ugly thing dominating your loungeroom' Bingo!! Herein lies the difference with B&O. They are the only brand whose products look good switched off!

    This is the thing that seperates the ignorant from the connoisseur....

    My B&O: 2009 Catalogue and Pricelist

  • 05-25-2009 12:51 AM In reply to

    Re: Bang & Olufsen for the ignorant or for the connoisseur?

    vikinguk:

     However, there are no excuses for not offering the very best technical specifications with every product.

    I definitley agree with this. When relatively cheap tat outperforms a prestige brand's product, someone's not doing their job right....

    Ray

    Я люблю Банг и Oлуфсен

  • 05-25-2009 3:46 AM In reply to

    • moxxey
    • Top 25 Contributor
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    Re: Bang & Olufsen for the ignorant or for the connoisseur?

    rayfenwick:

    vikinguk:

     However, there are no excuses for not offering the very best technical specifications with every product.

    I definitley agree with this. When relatively cheap tat outperforms a prestige brand's product, someone's not doing their job right....

    However, can we completely trust the 'very best specifications' from other companies? ie. Sony have a 200Hz screen. Panasonic have a 600Hz screen, whilst B&O have only just (!) released their first 100Hz screen.

    B&O do have an awfully bad habit of only using older tried-and-tested products. They seem to be around 12 months or more behind the same releases from other manufacturers when it comes to their TV panel implementation.

    Their speakers are up there with the best though and they are one of the first to integrate Blu-ray in to their TV. Also, I've seen their new BV8-40 and, for the price, it's a very very decent product.

  • 05-25-2009 4:14 AM In reply to

    Re: Bang & Olufsen for the ignorant or for the connoisseur?

    The only thing I see as ignorant are those people who cant accept that other people have differing tastes, values and perspectives. There are many people who are a connoisseur of A/V equipment, motorcars, wrist-watches, fine cigars or fine liquors etc..

     

    Does a £2.99 cheapo LCD digital watch (where the battery is the most expensive component) out-perform a Brietling Navitimer or Rolex Daytona? Damn sure it does in terms of timekeeping. It is probably chipped to display day, date, stopwatch, lap, calculator, alarm, backlight etc.. It will never need £250 on a 5 year service spending on it nor ever need to be insured.

     

    Does a Toyota Corolla get you from A to B any faster than an Aston? It does if you don’t break the law and is equally valid as an automobile in being able to strip your licence away from you if you drive inappropriately. It is more reliable, better fuel economy and probably a lot more comfortable to drive.

     

    Cigars. To some, pure pleasure, to others burning money. Many smokers would question why spend 50 quid on a Cohiba Siglo 6 when you could buy a couple of bricks of B&H’s on the way back from the Costa for the same dosh?

     

    Booze. I’m happy with pint. I don’t see why people blow +£200 on a bottle of Blue Label, a bottle of Remy Extra or on a cheeky little Vintage de Plonk but they do.

     

    A/V. Is a BS9000 with a pair of BL5’s that far behind the 8-Ball compared to a more traditional audio setup for £15K?  The picture on the latest BV7-40 is good – but there are better. But how many are better in terms of materials and the sound or in the integration? I have never once needed a HMDI connect yet. Why should I lament if it has 4, 3, 1 or none?

     

    See at the end of the day, imho it has nothing to do with specification. I think it has to do with appreciating and valuing something that you want to value rather than accept as a plain commodity packed with bells and whistles. We all have different views on what is good or bad or is valued or valueless – why cant people accept that?

     

    10%

  • 05-25-2009 4:34 AM In reply to

    Re: Bang & Olufsen for the ignorant or for the connoisseur?

    Well said 10%. At last a sensible post.

    Regards Graham

  • 05-25-2009 7:59 AM In reply to

    Re: Bang & Olufsen for the ignorant or for the connoisseur?

    joeyboygolf:

    Well said 10%. At last a sensible post.

    I agree, although it certainly isn't contrary to anything I said earlier:

    I wasn't talking about specifications - I know well enough that they're largely hokum. Same goes for 'bells & whistles" features, but...

    ...if in a group test the DVD player with the shoddiest build or the TV with the grainiest picture happens to be the most expensive, you have to look for something to counter this, and make it a worthwhile purchase to the "middle ground" customers. 

    If not, their perception of B&O as being "overpriced, under-teched, badge-engineered run-of-the-mill equipment in a posh frock" (and this from the owner of one of the largest chains of HiFi retail etc) in the country 15 years ago) will continue, no matter how much I save up to buy a 20 year old Beosystem, or if the Beckhams buy half a dozen shiny new Beovisions....which brings me to reiterate what I said about TV's earlier in this thread -

    If Beoworld members (who presumably appreciate the 'je ne sais quoi" of B&O) are advising each other to buy a different brand TV because it is not only cheaper, but has a better picture, then surely this says a lot. 

    Of course some people would buy *anything* simply out of brand loyalty, and that's commendable, if nothing else, but to use the above car analogy - if an Aston Martin used  Mondeo running gear, but had less creature comforts and was a bit slower, but looked like an Aston Martin, and cost like one would they really sell as well as they do?

    Can name and looks alone *really* be all that matters?

     

    Ray

    Я люблю Банг и Oлуфсен

  • 05-25-2009 8:30 AM In reply to

    • moxxey
    • Top 25 Contributor
    • Joined on 04-14-2007
    • South West, UK
    • Posts 2,360
    • Bronze Member

    Re: Bang & Olufsen for the ignorant or for the connoisseur?

    joeyboygolf:

    Well said 10%. At last a sensible post.

    I think that's a tad unfair on this thread, Graham. Perhaps you are talking to the wrong audience (ie. we all buy and like B&O). Sounds like you're suggesting that my and other posts, above are not 'sensible'. Just because a post matches your viewpoint, doesn't mean it's more or less sensible. Just means you agree!

  • 05-25-2009 8:57 AM In reply to

    Re: Bang & Olufsen for the ignorant or for the connoisseur?

    The problem I have is that there are times when B&O make fabulous kit and I want them , but other times when the equipment just doesn't stand out. Stand out products for me were the 2400 system in 1980 - remote control, no buttons and good sound, compared to boring stack systems from other makes - Beosystem 5000 - the remote was light years ahead of anything else on the market - Beolink 7000 and Beocenter 9500 - again a remote which is still ahead of the market and a music centre that had no buttons but responded simply to touch and completely intuitively. On the TV front, the LX series were beautifully made with a superb picture and sound and still had real wood finishes and the Avant had a great picture and sound and neither were so expensive to be unattainable.

    The BS9000 was something very special (and still is) and the design of the BV5 was the only plasma set that really looked different (unfortunately the picture is still a Panasonic plasma).

    The present range doesn't excite me (speakers excepted) - the BS5 just isn't as good as I can get with my Mac as I cannot work it in a link room. The BV7 picture is just not good enough and the software issues are horrendous. It also looks like many other makes in my view. The BV8 at least looks different - I have not seen the 8-40 yet so will not judge it yet. The audio side seems to have lost its way - the BC2 (I have one) is pleasant enough but I hardly ever use mine now - I use digital music instead. The BS4 is just not clever enough and with the death of the BS2, the SD card is obsolete. The BS3200 is now a dinosaur - the HDD is a joke - having to name your own CDs? The BS9000 still is the star but I wouldn't use one as I want to choose from all my music.

    The bit that is letting the side down is what was its strength before - Beolink. This needs to be digital and to allow multiple sources to play at once. There needs to be proper two way control - the BM5 is fine but the BS5 should have been wireless and maybe a simpler version required - think Beolink 5000 and 7000. One big expensive one with all the tricks and a simplified one for link rooms. However both should be portable.

    TV screens need more magic too. The BV10 promises to be more like it - I want good pictures and sound and I want a USP. We need designers who think out of the box - my mind keeps coming back to a rollable screen - reduce the big black box to a sculpture than only unfolds when activated - get away from the obvious. Make the picture come alive - something akin to the theatre curtains of old. To do this, B&O have to adapt the technology available in ways that other companies will not do. They have done this before but are lagging in my view at present. Not wishing to bang an old drum, but the products that make me smile most these days seem to be from Apple , not B&O. Lots of special materials and software that really works. Having a shiny toy that annoys you is just no fun.

    Rant over! Laughing

  • 05-25-2009 9:38 AM In reply to

    Re: Bang & Olufsen for the ignorant or for the connoisseur?

    Great accomplishments lead to appreciation by connoisseurs. Sham accomplishments can trick even experts for a while, but usually stand revealed, in the end.

    B&O has, for decades, delivered a series of great accomplishments, and did therefore achieve appreciation by the most discerning of customers -- but then the brand began coasting on its reputation, instead of pushing the envelope. The Betamax debacle has much to answer for, it made the organization too cautious, in a field where customers expect leading edge.

    A few products have held the fort, so to speak, but too many have strayed from the level expected by demanding customers. It's as if the Bodega Catena Zapata began diluting its wine with cheap plonk, and let's be honest, there are a few plonk products and some strange thinking. (The adoption and abandonment of SD-cards is one example.)

    And strangely, the company hasn't promoted the achievements that really stand out, such as acoustic lenses and room calibration; or even what they managed with the car-fi. And I don't care a whit what they charge for their televisions, as long as I get at least state-of-the-art technology. (And when I bought my BV8 I didn't even ask for that, but bought in appreciation of the design).

    Being a connoisseur doesn't mean buying the most expensive, or the most flashy, but achieving an exceptional experience through discernment and insight -- B&O has to provide more fodder for discernment and insight, quite simply.

     

  • 05-25-2009 9:47 AM In reply to

    • Pushkin
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    • Joined on 04-19-2007
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    Re: Bang & Olufsen for the ignorant or for the connoisseur?

    Peter - sadly I agree with you.  A little while back i got rid of my BV4-65, 4*BL8000, BS9000 and a range of other bits - this decision taken after 15 years of adoring everything B&O.  I now have a pioneer kuro 60" and some B&W 800 series speakers.  The only other things visible are my Macs with ipod touches used as remotes.  Reflecting on my divorce with B&O I have three observations:

    - It is the video side of B&O that is most worrying for the future of the company. Pioneer's video performance is in an entirely different league to B&O.  My wife, who has little emotional attachment with B&O or and is therefore more objective, is amazed by the difference in quality.  Sound, however, is much more marginal with BL9 & 5 being excellent products.  This reminds me when I was in New York recently at an excellent restaurant - problem was through that although the food was only marked up say 30%, the wines had a 800% profit margin which left me feeling ripped off and a little stupid - undermined the whole experience.  For me the BV range (particularly the larger BV4) has the same effect.  

    - The ability to really integrate with Apple and itunes is very refreshing - using the ipod touch to control everything is real magic and joy to use - I had a good play with a BS5 in a store the other day and for me it cannot compete.  I love bits if it but is thoroughly outdated.  The same goes for using CAT6 to pipe HD sound and vision though the house.  I don't think I could go back to ML now.

    - My emotion connection with B&O is with the past products which were amazing for their time imho B&O were and are not keeping up - not just with technology but more importantly with real innovation - its not enough to have a product like the BS9000 once every twenty years.  For me the real issue with B&O is not price, nor pure tech features, but real innovation that amazes the user and creates the joy and emotional connection with continued use.

     

    I would have to disagree that ignorant or connoisseur are the only valid choices.  Not ignorant for many reasons, not least the intelligence, insight and refinement shown by the majority of members of this forum and not connoisseur because connoisseurs usually usually seek out and value the best and imho opinion B&O are not that.  So it may well be something else..... 

  • 05-25-2009 10:03 AM In reply to

    Re: Bang & Olufsen for the ignorant or for the connoisseur?

    Agree - the essence of B&O should be joy - joy of use, joy of ownership and joy of performance. If you have to make excuses, where is the joy. I don't care about the cost, though clearly you cannot price yourselves out of a market, but I want something out of the ordinary. What we have at present is a veneer - I want it to be solid.

    As said before, the speakers are the one area I would exclude from this - the Beolab 5s are simply incredible in every way and the BL9 and 3 are also great.

  • 05-25-2009 10:56 AM In reply to

    Re: Bang & Olufsen for the ignorant or for the connoisseur?

    Very interesting thread.

    I fully agree with your post Peter. I have owned B&O before, switched to other brands in the late 90ies and ended up switching back to B&O.

    Though the setup I own now is certainly not the newest items (90ies beosystem 7000), it is the one that gives me most joy in use.
    The 2-way beolink 5000 and 7000 remotes are still fantastic to use. Features like this are now very much lacking I find.  
    My next item will be a beosound9000 as I still play alot of cd's.

    It's a given that the latest models of speakers are some of the best I have ever heard (beolab 3,5,9,8000) and definately B&O's forte.

    Though the new beosound5 is a good starting point for a digital concept though it lacks most of the necessary requirements such as easy expansion, an updated wired or wireless masterlink that is sold and fast and capable of audio and HD video, and of course a good reliable, fast and easy to use 2-way remote system. Sadly the compromise is to make is too big for me to buy one, otherwise I sure would have one right now.
    I am installing a mac mini with Itouch remote for playing all my digital files.  

    I would suggest that B&O would limit its tv offerings to 2 models : The more economic BV8 series and a more exclusive BV5-type offering.
    I feel B&O have invested way too much money in this sector, with poor results and (if they continue like that) will be there demise.
    Also dropping the beosystem3 in favour for a smaller and cheaper version with less bells and whistles would help many of us out to keep our B&O systems functional.

    I am sorry to the say that the price of the tv's and beosystem3 were way out of my budget then and therefore one of the decisive reason to get rid of ALL my by B&O gear in the first place. However I will look into the BV8-40 when it would come available here in Canada. It's got the looks and if the image is up to standard it would certainly be a worthwhile investment for me to consider. Looking forward that ....

     

  • 05-25-2009 11:12 AM In reply to

    Re: Bang & Olufsen for the ignorant or for the connoisseur?

    Very interesting posts from all -  to be fair I think Peter has hit at least one of the nails on the head.  About 6 months ago I bought an IMAC, and from thereon I have gone on to buy a 13.3 led screen macbook, together with a 24" led cinema display which will soon be taken out of its box to use! These products do it for me personally as does my Pioneer 43" PDP.  Again we agree regarding the 5's, 3's and 9's (in that order).

    From my perspective I know a lot of people who are core B&O customers and who have looked at the current range -  especially the prices - and simply feel that B&O no longer caters for them, the relatively wealthy are no longer catered for.  The general feeling is that it is the uber-wealthy which B&O now caters for and at the prices charged today - not from June 1st - who can blame anyone for feeling that way. 

  • 05-25-2009 2:15 PM In reply to

    Re: Bang & Olufsen for the ignorant or for the connoisseur?

    But for me it is not just the price, it is the product. The TVs are just not good enough or special enough. Even the BV9 is spoilt by the ALT lens. It is supposed to be a picture frame - in which case, why does it have a bit of metal sticking out the front! That should have been behind the canvas - not on display! Spoils the effect completely for me. I don't think the BV7 prices are bad really - they are set at about Avant level plus 10% which I don't object to. I just don't like the style or the picture. Here is hoping for the BV10! Supposed to be a thin BV5 - I hope the picture is good though!

  • 05-25-2009 2:58 PM In reply to

    • moxxey
    • Top 25 Contributor
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    • South West, UK
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    • Bronze Member

    Re: Bang & Olufsen for the ignorant or for the connoisseur?

    Peter :

    But for me it is not just the price, it is the product. The TVs are just not good enough or special enough. Even the BV9 is spoilt by the ALT lens.

    Yes, completely correct. My view is that the BV9 is a good step up from the BV5 (looks a bit square and dated now), but only without that ALT lens. Why on earth was that added to the front of the TV? Who signed that off?

    However, I disagree with the BV7-40 comment. Although it is too expensive - that I'd agree with - the picture for Freeview, Sky or HD is fantastic. Only analogue SD is poor. However, that's a problem for LCDs generally. There's only so much B&O can do to make poor SD signals look fantastic on an LCD panel.

    The BV10 won't be any better Peter. The BV8-40 won't be any better for analogue SD. I think your expectations are too high.

     

  • 05-26-2009 1:51 AM In reply to

    Re: Bang & Olufsen for the ignorant or for the connoisseur?

    personally , i think we need a new designer. david lewis has said many times how much he hates computers , this is proven by the products he designs , there's no acceptance of the digital future

    i'm sure that if jacob jensen was still in charge we'd have NO complaints , his best products were always ahead of their time , some of them still look from the year 3000 !

    i'd nominate jonny ive , but he's a tad busy at the mo'

    anyone else spring to mind ?

    popgear is grate™

  • 05-26-2009 2:11 AM In reply to

    Re: Bang & Olufsen for the ignorant or for the connoisseur?

    Peter :

    ...the essence of B&O should be joy - joy of use, joy of ownership and joy of performance. If you have to make excuses, where is the joy?

     

    I don't care about the cost, though clearly you cannot price yourselves out of a market, but I want something out of the ordinary. What we have at present is a veneer - I want it to be solid.

    Now THAT's a sensible post.

    Tech savvy people are currently saying "A B&O TV is a Panasonic TV in £3000 flashy casing" - and to me that's not what B&O is about.

    Plasma/LCD owning friends boggled when I bought my Avant last year:  At the picture, at the sound, at the looks - in that order.

    The Avant was a very different TV to its contemporaries - not because it was unobtainable, but because it gave excellent picture and sound (surely the raison d'etre of a TV?), looked good when turned off, and was different.

    Innovative, superior technology devoid of worthless gimmicks in a simple, sensible, beautiful design with quality workmanship & materials is what B&O should be about. I can be passionate about that, but not about a pretty Danish veneer on an otherwise MOR Japanese product.

    It happened in the 1980's with some Beocenters, and who wants them now? They fall under the "not real B&O" category, and compared to 'real' Beocenters like the 7700 and its bretheren the build, looks and performance leave you cold, and accordingly they are white elephants...

    In some ways it is happening again with some of the TVs, and it's not good at all.

    Ray

    Я люблю Банг и Oлуфсен

  • 05-26-2009 2:16 AM In reply to

    Re: Bang & Olufsen for the ignorant or for the connoisseur?

    Flappo The Grate:

    personally , i think we need a new designer. david lewis has said many times how much he hates computers , this is proven by the products he designs , there's no acceptance of the digital future

    i'm sure that if jacob jensen was still in charge we'd have NO complaints , his best products were always ahead of their time , some of them still look from the year 3000 !

    i'd nominate jonny ive , but he's a tad busy at the mo'

    anyone else spring to mind ?

    Pity Dieter Rams is 77.... oh wait, you said not Johnny Ive..... Wink

    Ray

    Я люблю Банг и Oлуфсен

  • 05-26-2009 4:38 AM In reply to

    Re: Bang & Olufsen for the ignorant or for the connoisseur?

    the reputation of Bang and Olufsen in the media is reflected by the journalist comments 

    if they made the best tv people would be less inclined to be negative ,no one makes connoisseur ignorant jibes at bmw, porsche or in av meridian or linn hifi as two people with experience have mentioned beovisions are not as good as pioneer 

    wealthy people now have proffesional  installs which look stunning, i think a pionner 50 inch kuro looks better quality than the bv8 

    the av world has changed and left bno behind in price and  performance bno seem to be at a low point and need to recover it can be done look at ice amplifiers even audiophiles are impressed  

    i dont agree on lcd performance on sd the pioneer lcd is stunning on freeview again why is not the beovision as good 

    on a positive point a lot of there hifi gear is very good and doesnt seem to get such a hard time in the industry 

     

  • 05-26-2009 7:15 AM In reply to

    Re: Bang & Olufsen for the ignorant or for the connoisseur?

    Like fans of a for-years-in-the-basement sports team, count me amongst those who are true B&O "fans".  I agree that AV technology today is moving at a very fast clip, and that B&O needs to reinvent their design/production/manufacturing strategy (think Porsche from the early 90's on)

    That said, I'm willing to continue to support (like a *true* fan), my favorite team *brand*, through thick and thin. The analogy I think of is when the time traveleer from the movie "The Time Machine" is locked in the volcanic mountain, and is waiting for the years to fly by until nature wears down the mountain, and allows the dawning of a new day and opportunities.

    B&O: Get busy reinventing your business model, for both our sakes.

    Barry

    Beofan

  • 05-26-2009 11:39 AM In reply to

    Re: Bang & Olufsen for the ignorant or for the connoisseur?

    Flappo The Grate:

    personally , i think we need a new designer. david lewis has said many times how much he hates computers , this is proven by the products he designs , there's no acceptance of the digital future

    i'm sure that if jacob jensen was still in charge we'd have NO complaints , his best products were always ahead of their time , some of them still look from the year 3000 !

     

    Looking at what JJ has brought out since leaving, I'm certain there would be no B&O at all to complain about. He really has not moved on at all imho.

     

    10%

     

  • 05-26-2009 2:00 PM In reply to

    Re: Bang & Olufsen for the ignorant or for the connoisseur?

    Completely agree. I have no problem with the David Lewis designs but I feel the time has come for a fresh view and someone interested in the digital age. I don't want to look back - I can buy old B&O for that.

  • 05-26-2009 3:09 PM In reply to

    Re: Bang & Olufsen for the ignorant or for the connoisseur?

    maybe jj feels a bit upset , jolted , even ****ed off by the way bno treated him after all those years and just can't be bothered any more

    he has nothing more to prove

    if you think you could design anything even approaching his 70's classics , do tell 

    popgear is grate™

  • 05-26-2009 3:13 PM In reply to

    Re: Bang & Olufsen for the ignorant or for the connoisseur?

    Has been mentioned before, and I think that B&O are looking at alternatives especially now that they have started to commemerate certains icons of the lewis era by casting them in gold or introducing limited editions, nice way to say goodbye to someone isn't it?

    I have a feeling that Zaha Hadid maybe amongst the contenders.  Anyone see the last newsletter? With the gold B&O? All placed in a ultra modern building designed by Ms Hadid... maybe a sign of things to come?

    As for the original post... Telegraph is nothing more than a rag of a newspaper... but me personally, I think neither, and probably someone who wants more of a compromise. Someone who wants the best of all worlds so to speak and is willing to settle for something which may look the best but does not perform the best but offers the best in terms of asthetics, craftsmanship, reliability (?) and connectivity to exisitng products. 

    I would have added longevity but that would seem a little risque with the current obsession for the next best thing for the tecno geeks..... but I find it very satisfying that I am still able to use a pair of speakers that are near 20 years old with the current line up of products.

     

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