I've been using HDTracks to download music in 96khz 24bit.  I'm not sure if you are aware of their service but they've been quickly growing and adding labels and recent records such as Robert Plant's 'Raising Sand' that can be purchased online (I'm not affiliated with HDtracks in any way).

 I didn't consider HD audio seriously for everyday use until I realized that I could easily convert these files to Apple lossless (or WAV) and play them through itunes and the Apple TV on my BS3.  The most dramatic differences I found are on Jazz, Latin and music with good vocals.  I know that many of us have discussed the merits of HD audio but I haven't heard much about anyone actually listening to it in any sort of practical way.  Is anyone else doing anything similar or found any good resources for music?

 I may be hopelessly optimistic but I hope more and more great albums becoming available on services such as this.

What connections do you use between the Apple TV and the BS3?

Michael:

I've been using HDTracks to download music in 96khz 24bit.  I'm not sure if you are aware of their service but they've been quickly growing and adding labels and recent records such as Robert Plant's 'Raising Sand' that can be purchased online (I'm not affiliated with HDtracks in any way).

 I didn't consider HD audio seriously for everyday use until I realized that I could easily convert these files to Apple lossless (or WAV) and play them through itunes and the Apple TV on my BS3.  The most dramatic differences I found are on Jazz, Latin and music with good vocals.  I know that many of us have discussed the merits of HD audio but I haven't heard much about anyone actually listening to it in any sort of practical way.  Is anyone else doing anything similar or found any good resources for music?

 I may be hopelessly optimistic but I hope more and more great albums becoming available on services such as this.

Hi Michael,

I would be wary of drawing any conclusions on the difference in quality directly between different 24 bit and 16 bit recordings. Generally if a recording is released as 24 bit it is very likely that it has been re-mastered and therefore you need to ask are you listening to the format differences or differences introduced by the mastering engineer.

If you are interested (and you have a decent audio editor) you can try downsampling one of your 24 bit 96 KHz recordings (using the best "quality" settings your audio editor allows) to 16 bit 44.1 KHz and then you can compare the format difference in isolation (of course your down conversion will not be "studio" quality but you may be suprised to find you can't hear a difference).

I've tried myself (albeit using headphones) and couldn't detect any real discernable difference - then again I wouldn't take this as overall conclusive proof it just means my own ears have deteriorated beyond any level where a difference could be detected (I'm quite old you see)

Hi,

You write you're using playback through iTunes and Apple TV. Does that mean you have one playback chain from iTunes on a computer to your BS3 and another from the AppleTV? Or do you have your music organized with iTunes, and then use Apple TV to play it back through the BS3?

Here's the thing. Apple TV outputs at 16bit/44.1, even if the original file was in a higher resolution ...

To get the full resolution, you need to output from your computer (for instance a Mac mini), using an optical out to a DAC (or a DAC that accepts the USB or FireWire output from the computer). And you need to set the AUDIO Midi Setup panel (in Utilities) to 24bit/96kHz output).

You may have done this, but if you haven't, then you're actually not listening to the full resolution.

soundproof:

Hi,

You write you're using playback through iTunes and Apple TV. Does that mean you have one playback chain from iTunes on a computer to your BS3 and another from the AppleTV? Or do you have your music organized with iTunes, and then use Apple TV to play it back through the BS3?

Here's the thing. Apple TV outputs at 16bit/44.1, even if the original file was in a higher resolution ...

To get the full resolution, you need to output from your computer (for instance a Mac mini), using an optical out to a DAC (or a DAC that accepts the USB or FireWire output from the computer). And you need to set the AUDIO Midi Setup panel (in Utilities) to 24bit/96kHz output).

You may have done this, but if you haven't, then you're actually not listening to the full resolution.

I did wonder hence my first question. Doesn't the Apple TV have optical audio out and the BS3 SPDIF (coax) in? Does the Apple TV  downsample to it's optical out also?

ATV does pass-through of 5.1DD surround, and outputs music and audio at 16/44.1 through the optical output. The soundcard inside is actually 24/192kHz native, so it's a mystery why Apple has hobbled it. (I've read some reports that it outputs at 20bit/44.1kHz, but my DAC shows 16/44.1 when I play music from iTunes through AppleTV.)

I agree that it's often very hard to discern any difference between 16/44.1 and 24/96kHz - however, I think the threadstarter may have experienced differences, even with the downsample, because many of the tracks that are sold at higher resolutions are actually better produced, because they are intended for the audiophile market, and the sound engineers have done a better job throughout. So what one is hearing is the quality of the work, not the resolution.

And yes, often the 24bit/96Khz "mastered" versions are just the original with a little EQ, at the higher sample rate, but with reduced dynamics, actually.

But - I have heard full resolution, multi-channel recorded music, and it is significantly richer and "fuller" - more enveloping, more detailed, more depth.

But I have also listened to my high-resolution files, purchased from Linn Records, and gone "Marvelous!", only to later discover that I had forgotten to change the setting on the AUDIO Midi Setup panel, and had downsampled the file!

soundproof:

ATV does pass-through of 5.1DD surround, and outputs music and audio at 16/44.1 through the optical output. The soundcard inside is actually 24/192kHz native, so it's a mystery why Apple has hobbled it. (I've read some reports that it outputs at 20bit/44.1kHz, but my DAC shows 16/44.1 when I play music from iTunes through AppleTV.)

 

 

As I said, I did wonder - it would also support my thoughts that any "glaring" differences heard are in the mastering of the album rather than the format.

Are you guys politely telling me I'm an idiot for thinking that using the analog out instead of the optical would magically bypass the known apple TV 16bit/44.1 downconversion that occurs (with Optical) and magically transfer golden sound waves like musical pixies farting stardust into my BS3?

I still think it sounds pretty good!

No - Michel. You have three porting options - analog out, optical out, HDMI out.

With analog out, you'd be using the inferior DAC in the AppleTV, which is not recommended, as you have better DACs in the BS3 (which can process 32bit/384kHz audio, if I remember correctly.)

With optical out from the ATV, you get the 16/44.1 limit.

With HDMI out, you get full resolution video, but still get the downsample of the iTunes music, according to what I have been told. But as I'm not using my ATV to play music (using Mac mini) I couldn't confirm that!

Michael:

Are you guys politely telling me I'm an idiot for thinking that using the analog out instead of the optical would magically bypass the known apple TV 16bit/44.1 downconversion that occurs (with Optical) and magically transfer golden sound waves like musical pixies farting stardust into my BS3?

I still think it sounds pretty good!

There are no idiots on Beoworld (apart from me, obviously) - only friends

This thread will live in the archive for years to come, others may search for keywords whereby this thread is returned as being relevant. If it has reached a resolution and everyone is happy then the information contained within will/may be useful for others.

All we ever want is for eveyone to be happy with their equipment and think that "it sounds pretty good" - if you're happy then we are too!

Well I guess I have an incentive to hook up that Mac Mini although it sounds like my ears probably can't hear the difference.

Michael:

Well I guess I have an incentive to hook up that Mac Mini although it sounds like my ears probably can't hear the difference.

But it does serve to illustrate an entirely different point - different versions of the same album can sound significantly different, certainly if buying "back catalogue" it's worth googling to ensure you buy the best (not just the cheapest) version of what you're looking for.

Well done for bringing this up!

I find Apple to be less than clear when reporting their audio resolutions on the ATV.

AAC (16 to 320 Kbps); protected AAC (from iTunes Store); MP3 (16 to 320 Kbps); MP3 VBR; Apple Lossless; AIFF; WAV; Dolby Digital 5.1 surround sound pass-through.

It says nothing about the downsample. But then they've always considered it a unit for playing back the content they provide, through the iTunes Store, and none of that is in 24/96kHz.

soundproof:

I agree that it's often very hard to discern any difference between 16/44.1 and 24/96kHz - however, I think the threadstarter may have experienced differences, even with the downsample, because many of the tracks that are sold at higher resolutions are actually better produced, because they are intended for the audiophile market, and the sound engineers have done a better job throughout. So what one is hearing is the quality of the work, not the resolution.

And yes, often the 24bit/96Khz "mastered" versions are just the original with a little EQ, at the higher sample rate, but with reduced dynamics, actually.

But - I have heard full resolution, multi-channel recorded music, and it is significantly richer and "fuller" - more enveloping, more detailed, more depth.

But I have also listened to my high-resolution files, purchased from Linn Records, and gone "Marvelous!", only to later discover that I had forgotten to change the setting on the AUDIO Midi Setup panel, and had downsampled the file!

Agree - throughout the thread, when I say "mastered" I actually meant "mixed/produced/mastered". Re- mastering (only) of the final stereo tracks, as you say, may not make best use of the source material.

Again, this is another point worthy of note when shopping for back catalogue, re-mastered (or even digitally remastered) doesn't necessarily mean better!

This is all very confusing and technical to me. To add to my confusion, I will ask a question. We have iTunes on a PC connected by Beoport to the Masterlink system. We also have Apple TV connected to our BV7 MKIII by both HDMI and analog. (I wanted HDMI to the BV7 but needed analog if I wanted to use the Apple TV in link rooms) It is syneced with the PC/iTunes wirelessly.

Here is my question:  Is the sound quality from iTunes on the computer via Masterlink different or better than the sound quality from the Apple TV?

Razlaw:

This is all very confusing and technical to me. To add to my confusion, I will ask a question. We have iTunes on a PC connected by Beoport to the Masterlink system. We also have Apple TV connected to our BV7 MKIII by both HDMI and analog. (I wanted HDMI to the BV7 but needed analog if I wanted to use the Apple TV in link rooms) It is syneced with the PC/iTunes wirelessly.

Here is my question:  Is the sound quality from iTunes on the computer via Masterlink different or better than the sound quality from the Apple TV?

I think we have established that ATV outputs 16bit 44.1 KHZ regardless of the connection used, the sound quality will depend on which unit does the final D2A.  I believe the quality of the sound from your PC will entirely depend on the quality of your PC soundcard.

I don't think this really answers your question but then the question you asked may not be answerable without furhter details -

 (or I don't know enough about your ATV or Beoport, I own neither)

Thank you very much for answer Puncher. I will have to take some time and see what I can learn about the soundcard and perhaps other details about the sound on our PC.

It's only in rare instances that computers, Mac or PC, are equipped with excellent soundcards, and then usually just on machines intended for professional customers who work with sound/music/film, and who specify a particular card is to be installed.
On the other hand, the "regular" sound cards have become quite good and are serviceable in most instances, even when one is using analog out.

If you have very good speakers, you want as good a treatment of the signal as possible, before it reaches the speakers -- which is why it might be worthwhile to look into getting an internal soundcard (DAC) or external DAC. Then you'd bypass the computer's treatment of the signal, and send it from the source (file, CD, etc.) straight to this other converter, before it's sent on.

soundproof:

.

If you have very good speakers, you want as good a treatment of the signal as possible, before it reaches the speakers -- which is why it might be worthwhile to look into getting an internal soundcard (DAC) or external DAC. Then you'd bypass the computer's treatment of the signal, and send it from the source (file, CD, etc.) straight to this other converter, before it's sent on.

Something like these?   In particular the external USB version?  Thanks!

Creative Labs : Home Page - The leader in Digital Entertainment for your PC an

soundproof:

many of the tracks that are sold at higher resolutions are actually better produced, because they are intended for the audiophile market, and the sound engineers have done a better job throughout. So what one is hearing is the quality of the work, not the resolution.

I think it makes a lot of sense Soundproof and certainly in keeping with my experience with these HD tracks.  Compressing the master to the point that you begin losing nuance is probably status quo for most music.