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ARCHIVED FORUM -- April 2007 to March 2012 READ ONLY FORUM
This is the first Archived Forum which was active between 17th April 2007 and
1st March February 2012
Latest post 07-15-2009 6:03 PM by erg4000. 62 replies.
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04-21-2009 10:14 AM
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Geir Brenden
- Joined on 03-15-2009
- Norway
- Posts 9
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Hello. Have some "problem" with the Beolab 5's. I think the bass isn't as its should be, specially on low volume. When playing loud it's ok. I'm using them with the Beovision 7-40, and they are correct installed and calibrated, but i don't think it's enough. Any suggestion to make the play more bass?
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Russ
- Joined on 05-07-2007
- Washington, DC USA
- Posts 641
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If you've calibrated each of the BeoLab 5's, and done a proper set-p in the BV-7's sound menu, then I would make certain that the Loudness in on. Other than that I'm at a bit of a loss.
We kid because we love.
Bang & Olufsen Tysons Galleria
McLean, VA USA
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thavn
- Joined on 02-16-2008
- Posts 138
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If you previously have had another setup with a subwoofer, you need to change the surround setup from "subwoofer on" to "subwoofer off".
I didn´t do that, and was slihtly disappointed at first. Very happy with them ever since.
Just speculating of course...
BV10, Avant DVD, BL5, BL4000, BS2300, BV6-26, MX 4002, 2xBeocom 6000, LC2
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moxxey
- Joined on 04-14-2007
- South West, UK
- Posts 2,360
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I have this problem, too. In fact, the BL3s feel more 'bassy'.
However, I'm sure it's to do with my room setup. When they were first placed in the room and calibrated, the bass was far more signifcant, but then there was little else in the room.
Since the room has been filled, then the speakers re-calibrated (I wish I hadn't bothered now!), I've noticed that the bass is almost non-existant, clearly as the calibration has resulted in the speakers thinking the room is tiny, due to the furniture and other items around the speakers.
BL5s seem best when they do not have too much around the speakers so they can be calibrated in an almost empty room.
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Geir Brenden
- Joined on 03-15-2009
- Norway
- Posts 9
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No Loudness on, and haven't configured with a subwoofer, all bass through the BL5's.
Calibrated the speakers first with all furnitures on their place, but then it was no bass at all. I was removing all furniture then calibrated the speakers and got much better bass, but not nearly enough. With 1000 watt on hands pr 15" it should be much better! I know they of course get nowhere near this at low volume, but should be better than this. Have the latest software and also tried a CD/DVD player directly to the speakers without using the BV7, but its the same.
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moxxey
- Joined on 04-14-2007
- South West, UK
- Posts 2,360
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I've just re-calibrated mine and it made no difference. Oh well. I wonder if some of it is to do with the sound source? Most modern CDs are very flat. My BL9s, connected to the TV, are awesome with movies, particularly Blu-ray movies. I can imagine the BL5s would be a step up again.
The same CD I tested on the BL5s, played via the BV7 and BL9s, sounds flat with little bass.
My conclusion is that our expectations are too high. We assume as we've bought top-end speakers, that they should turn our poorly engineered CDs in to a masterpiece of aural entertainment. Sadly, they don't.
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soundproof
- Joined on 04-16-2007
- Posts 2,340
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This was an Australian BeoWorlder, JandyT, who had a wooden floor that "gave" easily. Dave Moulton recommended stiffening the floor with a few supports underneath, and that recovered the bass instantly.
But Moxxey above has a point. Most newer music has very little dynamic response, which means that the speakers don't get much to work with. Yes, there's a wall-to-wall LFE signal in the music, but bass works best when the music has changes between loud and soft.
Another point: I thought my bass was off not that long ago, didn't really grab me. So I went through all the settings in my signal chain, including the menu settings, and discovered that someone (not me!) must have initiated a Dynamic Range Control option in my processor, which reduces the bass. Fixed that - and the bass I knew was back.
But Moxxey's point is important. Not only has music gotten a suppressed dynamic range, but remasters of older recordings are also getting a reduced dynamic range, compared to the original. All because people are listening in locations with high noise floors, which requires the music to be raised above this level, thus killing dynamics.
So - what you listen to may be just as responsible for a disappointment with the music through your system, as the system or setup itself.
Here's the thing. If you're listening to an original mix, or a recording with a good DR, then you will very likely have to turn up the volume to get good bass, while newer releases of the same music will have been given a higher level - you don't have to touch the volume, but the dynamics aren't as good. If you want more information about this, have a look at this site: http://www.turnmeup.org/
Here's an example. Led Zeppelin, Since I've Been Loving You.
Three versions: 1. The original 1980 release 2. The 1994 Remaster 3. The 40-Year Audiophile SHM-CD (Which is actually not audiophile at all, it's got borderline clipping.)
All the detail, and all the dynamics, have been preserved in the first one, while 2 and 3 show exaggerations, compression and detail being obscured - there's also evidence of quite marked use of EQ.
Listen to this - preferably through your sound system, from the computer. In the post below, I'll explain what you heard. It's Genesis.
http://home.comcast.net/~captaincasual/01_Genesis_Compare.mp3
Here's a list showing what's happened to the dynamic range - note how releases around the 80s all had great dynamic range (it's the number marked in bold on most of the entries), and then how the dynamic range becomes smaller. DR measures the difference between the lowest and the highest sounding portions of a track. Some remasters actually have lower DR than the original releases.
Donald Fagen\ The Nightfly\ 16 (1984? CD) Jimmy Page\ Outrider\ 12 (1988 CD) Tin Machine\ Tin Machine\ 13 (1989 CD) Jeff Beck\ Guitar Shop \ 12 (1989 CD) The Blue Nile\ Hats\ 12 (1989 CD) Adrian Belew\ Young Lions\ 13 (1990 CD) Mazzy Star\ She Hangs Brightly\ 11 (1990 CD) Eno-Cale\ Wrong Way Up\ 10 (1990 CD) Motorhead\ No Sleep Till Hammersmith\ 12 (1990 CD) Chris Isaak\ Wicked Game\ 13 (1991 CD) Murder Inc\ Murder Inc\ 12 (1991 CD) Hendrix, Jimi\ Electric Ladyland\ 10 (1991 CD) Ry Cooder & VM Bhatt\ A Meeting By The River\ 17 (1993 CD) Rebecca Pidgeon\ The Raven\ 12 (1994 Chesky CD) David Sylvian & Robert Fripp\ Damage\ 13 (1994 CD) Sex Pistols\ Never Mind The Bollocks\ 11 (mid 90's remaster) Elton John\ Captain Fantastic And The Brown Dirt Cowboy\ 11 (1995 remaster) Kate Bush\ Hounds Of Love\ 10 (1997 remaster) Miles Davis\ Kind of Blue\ 13 (1997 remaster) The Beach Boys\ The Pet Sounds Sessions\ 10 (1997 boxset) Talk Talk\ It's My Life\ 12 (1997 remaster) Talk Talk\ The Colour Of Spring\ 12 (1997 remaster) Steely Dan\ Aja\ 13 (1999 remaster) Steely Dan\ Pretzel Logic\ 11 (1999 remaster) Tin Machine\ Tin Machine\ 10 (1999 remaster) Joni Mitchell\ Blue\ 9 (HDCD remaster) Emmylou Harris\ Red Dirt Girl\ 8 (2000 HDCD) Ash\ Free All Angels\ 6 (2002 CD) Queens Of The Stone Age\ Songs For The Deaf\ 4 (2002 CD) Gene Clark\ No Other \ 9 (2003 CD) Pink Floyd\ The Dark Side Of The Moon (30th Anniversary Edition)\ 9 (2003 CD/SACD) The White Stripes\ Elephant\ 9 (2003 CD) Sparks\ Lil' Beethoven \ 9 (2003 CD) AC-DC\ Back In Black\ 8 (current 2003 remaster) Muse\ Absolution\ 7 (2003 release) Nickelback\ All The Right Reasons\ 5 (2005 CD) The Black Eyed Peas\ Monkey Business\ 6 (2005 CD) Foo Fighters\ In Your Honour\ 6 (2005 CD) Audioslave\ Revelations\ 6 (2006 CD) Muse\ Black Holes and Revalations\ 5 (2006 CD) Chris Cornell\ Carry On\ 6 (2007 CD) Seasick Steve\ I Started Out With Nothin And I Still Got Most Of It Left\ 8 (2008 CD) Ladyhawke\ Ladyhawke\ 8 (2008 CD) Guns'N'Roses\ Chinese Democracy\ 10 (2008 CD)
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soundproof
- Joined on 04-16-2007
- Posts 2,340
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To those who listened to the Genesis sample.
http://home.comcast.net/~captaincasual/01_Genesis_Compare.mp3
It has three versions of a portion of the same track.
1. The original mix.
2. A remaster.
3. A sound engineer's attempt to tweak the original to get a result similar to the so-called remaster.
SO - don't think you have good bass just because the CD says Genesis, Supertramp, Donald Fagen (well, usually he has a good handle on the output, though a Gold reissue of AJA which he had no hand in, got everything wrong.)
Here are the details as to the three tracks:
As a recording engineer it's been incredibly frustrating for me to see
how many people find the Genesis remixes not only acceptable but
superior to the originals. I wondered how much manipulation it would
take for me to make the original mixes sound as harsh and compressed as
the remixes.
I took the first track from ...And Then There Were Three... (original
Atlantic CD) and ran it through some EQs and compressors and digital
limiter while A/Bing it with the remix.
Here are my final EQ settings:
+15dB @ 7.5 kHz shelving
+9.5dB @ 16 kHz
+9dB @ 1.5 kHz
+7.5dB @ 250 Hz
+4dB @ 50Hz
But it still wasn't quite harsh enough so I patched in a second EQ:
+7.5dB @ 3 kHz
+ 10dB @ 125 Hz
Then I hooked up my SSL compressor (the same one Nick used) and did 4dB
of gain reduction @ 10:1 (the highest ratio it has). Still wasn't
enough so I hooked up my Pendulum 6386 Vari-Mu compressor and did
another 4dB of compression.
Now I was beginning to hear some similarities between the two. I also
ran it through a digital peak limiter taking off another 2dB and we
have a match. The kick drum and vocals are louder on the remix but the
rest is pretty similar.
Here's the order of what you're listening to... Original Atlantic CD
unaltered, the Remix and then the original Atlantic CD pummeled with
EQ, compression and limiting.
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moxxey
- Joined on 04-14-2007
- South West, UK
- Posts 2,360
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soundproof:
This was an Australian BeoWorlder, JandyT, who had a wooden floor that "gave" easily. Dave Moulton recommended stiffening the floor with a few supports underneath, and that recovered the bass instantly.
That definitely applies to my scenario - wooden floor, little support etc.
Listening to the latest Depeche Mode 'Sounds of the Universe' CD and that's fairly well engineered - sounds little better on the BL5s than my BL3s. There's a strange 'mid range' to my BL5s lately.
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moxxey
- Joined on 04-14-2007
- South West, UK
- Posts 2,360
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Definitely not being criticised, but I/we're not going gloss over something if it's not quite working right, are we? No point just saying they are superb and 'be done with it'. Clearly my problem is now my wooden flimsy floor and increased furniture count, which means any new calibration results in far poorer bass.
If I re-arranged the situation and/or move to a new place (new place based around the BL5s, perhaps?), then it might be a different matter.
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soundproof
- Joined on 04-16-2007
- Posts 2,340
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The Australian BeoWorlder had moved to a new house, and missed the crispness and report of his BL5 bass from the previous residence, and this gave him a good reference for what was missing.
The two sub-woofers on the BL5s together move several liters of air when working at optimum (if I remember correctly, each can shift 1,8l/pulse). There's the risk that a place with soft floors or walls will be absorbing that energy, instead of reflecting it. But I agree with mhodges, people have gotten so used to hammock-shaped frequency response curves that exaggerate the lows and highs, instead of the ideal flat response, that you'll sometimes have people feeling "is that all there is?"
I've had fun just boosting the bass when I'm asked that question - as I prefer acoustic music, I have my speakers set for a flat response, and at this, the BL5s are phenomenally realistic, from 20Hz onwards (with a respectable showing below 20Hz, actually.)
So - when I turn up the bass to and past the WHUMP! they're used to, they can feel the whole apartment shake, and then I dial it back to where it should be.
One of my favourite recordings is "Play Bach" with the Jacques Loussier Trio - my BeoLab 5s turn the recording into the sheer joy of following the details of the bass and drums, while Loussier teases miracles from the piano. No need to exaggerate there!
(The latest Die Hard movie, with the scene at the end involving the fighter plane and the truck, is a good demo if you feel you're lacking bass. Make sure your expensive china is secured!)
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Beolab
- Joined on 05-18-2007
- Sweden
- Posts 535
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The ICE power amp do have 1000watts but how much current does it have? I have asked the audiodevolpers in Struer and no one could answer my question?
That's why you most set the volume at 75 on the Bc2 or Bs5 to hear plenty of bass in the store, but our costumers don´t want to play that loud to get bass. If you increase the bass eq with +6db you only increase the midrange in the Beolab 5 not the 15" subwoofer!
A parallel: Current is like torque in real life.
It´s like a 240bhp Honda S2000 Type-R with no or 190Nm of torque Vs 250bhp Mustang small block V8 with 430Nm of torque. The Honda you must rev it to the red line limit to get all the power. And with the Mustang you have plenty of torque power from 1500 rpm- 6000rpm redline.
I think Beolab 5 doesn't have enough current to drive and control the 15" peerless woofers in the right way. That's why it´s so little bass at lower volumes!
My 3 cent..
Regards
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soundproof
- Joined on 04-16-2007
- Posts 2,340
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I'm not privy to the circuit-layout on the BL5s, but would find it curious if the volume controlled the power-supply to the amps. The volume control will decide the attenuation from the amp's to the drivers, but that's something else, and quite sophisticated given the processing ciruitry in the BL5s.
For what it's worth, I've been impressed with the presence of bass at low volumes myself, but this could of course be coloured by the kind of music I listen to, where bass reproduction rarely is the important element. (Acoustic classical and jazz, mostly.)
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Beolab
- Joined on 05-18-2007
- Sweden
- Posts 535
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Alex have you been hypnotized by your B&O dealer? I haven´t read a
single post from you were you have criticized B&O?!(Besides the
Beolab 2) I find it a little bit strange? Because I work full time at
B&O in Stockholm, and me, my colleges and all other stores have plenty of things that
we don´t like with the sound, picture and function in the product´s!
This brand have often high performance and high quality, but i´ts not
the best.
B&O are not the holy grail if you think so! Come down to earth please! =)
Regards
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Alex
- Joined on 04-16-2007
- Bath & Cardiff, UK
- Posts 2,990
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I don't really feel the need to criticise in any situation unless it's particularly constructive, and pretty much all the issues I would raise with B&O are things they have already highlighted themselves; what use would it be if I were to make exactly the same points?
And no I haven't been hypnotized by my dealer - I work for them.
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