OK, I know that I'm the "broken record" of these forums, but I continue to assert that B&O should make a fundamental switch and rely on Apple's software for their products.  Even if they don't take this extreme step (which I obviously feel would secure their place in the future), they ought to at least work with Apple.  Sure, I'm happy that the things like the PUC on my BV8 supports the Apple TV (heck, they're the only AV manufacturer that I know of that's doing this), but I'd buy a BS5 tomorrow if it played Apple lossless so I could continue using the ubiquitous and unifying piece of software that iTunes is rapidly becoming.  Likewise, if B&O made the next generation BS3 output digital coaxial to the BL5s so that I could use the Apple TV as my audio player (I realize that this would be direct competition to the BS5), I'd purchase BL5s tomorrow.

Please B&O - in the midst of coming up with a unified piece of software and a universal TV platform, etc., etc. - please consider using iTunes as a base around which to design these systems.  This would free up software development and ensure a built in buyer base with Apple diehards like myself and so many people we hear on these forums.  The Windows guys wouldn't be left out either as iTunes is completely Windows compatible.  To ignore the synergy that's developing around iTunes and the iPhone / AppleTV platform will, I believe, prove to be a mistake.

It's articles like this one that prompt me to write stuff like this:

http://macdailynews.com/index.php/weblog/comments/20844/

Apple is going to redefine the way we acquire and watch media.  I want B&O to be part of this.  As an example, I foresee vehicles coming in the future with an iPhone boon doggle which will allow the iPhone to power a vehicle's navigation system, cell phone, information, video systems, etc.  It just makes so much sense to have a constantly updating small device do this rather than inherent, OEM, vehicle electronics which will be promptly outdated and require things like navigation DVDs to update maps, etc.  The car manufacturers will simply provide an LCD that will in turn be powered by the incredibly powerful Apple OS X via the iPhone (or future Apple devices).

Mark D

now would be a good time for Apple Inc to buy B&O, or at least a majority shareholding, I think that would be a more realistic plan for you to put in motion Mark

http://www.truveo.com/Bang-Olufsen-Misses-Forecasts/id/715679618

now would be a good time for Apple to buy into a sizeable share of B&O while they have huge losses, and are laying off people right left and centre.

I'd be weary of us relying on any one solution/path/provider/platform/format, etc. Apple has had a hell of a run, but I can't imagine it will last. Our current strategy, while not as refined (we probably agree fully there) as I'd like, is likely the best one. Though 8 out of 10 people I see to use iTunes, those that don't or those adventurous to use upstarts like Songbird, et al. shouldn't be penalized or forced to use two platforms. 

What I like about our strategy is that it stops at the water's edge. The way you manage your media on the PC is up to you, then you load it onto the 5 through a portal. That's as solid and scalable a solution as I could ever want. The second you start weaving it into another program, you begin to rely too heavily on a major factor outside your control. 

Plus I absolutely detest my Apple TVs and have gutted them and turned them into brainless media clients. I don't like being hemmed into Apple's ecosystem and I don't like the way the thing chews up bandwidth with its constant synching. Apple is gorgeous stuff, but to nothing is perfect. Except B&O, of course. 

Trip,

We can agree to disagree about the merits of B&O tying their ship to Apple's software platform.  However, the BS5 is not a convenient "portal" in the way it connects to iTunes.  Hasn't B&O made the device less iTunes friendly by not allowing it to play lossless AAC formated songs?  To hook it in to the Apple ecosystem, one would have to convert songs in iTunes in to another format (i.e. have two copies of these songs - one for the iTunes ecosystem and one just for the BS5).  Right?  Or, am I wrong in these regards?

Regarding being hemmed into Apple's ecosystem, I can't think of another system out there that lets the media you buy or import be more flexibly shuttled around - certainly not B&O's system.

When I peruse my Apple TV media library via an iPhone or iTouch and play it through any B&O product in my house, it really starts to become apparent the ease with which Apple's software and hardware will further integrate in to our living rooms.  I then look at the Beo5 and wonder what in the heck B&O was thinking.

I feel like I'm being too harsh on B&O, and that isn't my intention, so please don't interpret this as disdain for the company that inspired this forum.  In fact, I love B&O and I do appreciate the magic that B&O has (as an example, I don't look forward to handling my iPhone like I do my Beo4 which comparitively is, of course, a much more rudimentary, old piece of equipment).  I simply want B&O to survive and this is my "take" on one way they could ensure some future viability.

Incidentally, I look forward to their iPod docking thing-a-ma-gigue (whatever it ends up being).  And I'm excited about these new products coming out later this year (particularly the big LCD and the sub-woofer).

M

It's quite amusing to register the extent to which people "detest" Apple products, which they then proceed to spend a lot of time trying to get to behave like a Windoze unit.

Any A/V components manufacturer that fails to accommodate for full integration with Apple's solutions will completely lose the youth market, from 16-35; and will have hobbled itself seriously when it comes to older, prospective consumers.
For the very simple reason that Apple's products are becoming universal standards:

- television stations are using Apple interfaces and codecs for creation of media banks of their present and past programming. Ditto with movie studios - there may be a Windoze translation at the end, but the entire process happens through streamlining designed and made available by Apple, because they are way ahead and calling the shots.

In addition, the formats are dictated by the iPod, iPhone standards and possibilities - failing to accept this is suicidal, since these are platform agnostic. And while great recruiting tools from the Windoze world, they also give Apple-users ease of use and excellence of presentation that is unmatched.

Professional adoption of the possibilities available through Apps is taking off, and again leaving all competitors in the dust. Acoustics engineers, doctors, surveyors, hunters, search and rescue teams - they're all using iPhones in new and quite amazing ways. Here's just a very small example: http://www.faberacoustical.com/products/iphone/signalscope/

The new Apple Tablet will transform portability and change the equation again - providing remote control functionality that is amazing - both brown and white goods manufacturers are getting ready to participate, as are alarm and home control systems providers.

Check out podcasts, vidcasts providers - look at how easily content is integrated into net pages - and register the simple fact that BBC called its media offering iPlayer (with Apple's blessing), while using the codecs.

Sorry Trip - B&O's solutions don't stop at the water's edge - if you're an Apple user, you'll take a look, and if you are skilled enough, you'll get your stuff to work inside the B&O system -- but most will just not bother, because they want ease of use.

BeoNut1 is right ...

beoappleworld.......URghhhh!!!

Urghhh, indeed - but about as sensible to protest as the introduction of CDs, which B&O was among the first to adopt.

I consider Apple to have created the new standard for transmission of sound and image - and do note that they aren't charging anyone for using their standard. You can use their tools to sell or provide content outside iTunes, and there are no locks. Now that app developers have gotten acquainted with the format, they're even removing the restrictions there.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123980962988921409.html

This is the format that will be used for the distribution, organization and playback of digital content - in all forms.

I don't get the hate - manufacturers are just going with what's possible. Get ready for Leica's new lightwave binoculars with USB-connection. It makes it possible to transfer digital files between binoculars, using a lightwave, with the binoculars up to several kilometers apart; and the lightwave is also used to enable communication between binocular wearers - you just plug in a headset with microphone. Should we knock Leica for having developed this?
http://en.leica-camera.com/sport_optics/geovid_binoculars/geovid_lux/ 

These are digital tools, and given the fact that Apple now has tens of thousands of developers at work, creating new uses and adding new applications, it's impossible to catch up.

The beauty of it is that you don't have to see that there's an Apple-unit behind it all - just give it another skin. Or use Plex - have you tried it?

http://www.plexapp.com/

My point being that with thousands of developers creating solutions that use the apple-codecs at their core, you're bound to find something that suits you perfectly, instead of having to accept a limited solution from a small A/V manufacturer. At least make it just as simple to use for both platforms, instead of treating Apple as a nuisance. B&O is completely dependent upon recruiting younger consumers - guess what they are using, and expect? iTunes/iPod interaction and functionality, without any trouble or obstacles whatsoever.

ouverture:

now would be a good time for Apple Inc to buy B&O

That's not going to happen. B&O and Apple serve different markets and, whilst Apple mass-manufacture in China, the impression B&O give is that their products are hand-built in Denmark. Buying a current loss-leading company would have no benefits to Apple. Yes, there are some technologies, but not enough - and at a price that can be incorporated in to Apple products - to make a purchase worthwhile.

I think this is just a bizarre dream from certain B&O users who believe that the two companies share the same synergy and that Apple should use their financial clout to 'save' the B&O dream.

Agreed. Apple has not manufactured speakers, nor traditional televisions. This is due to its compromise with Apple Records concerning what businesses they can be engaged in, so as to be able to use the name. (Apple Records has sued Apple at various stages, also when Apple released computers with built-in speakers, considered an infringement of their agreement.)

B&O products go well with Apple's, a company that is much more associated with A/V than Microsoft will ever be - and B&O should have realized that and at least accommodated for Apple's OS. (Just consider the fact that the first BeoSound 2 was released without operating software for Macs...

moxxey:

ouverture:

now would be a good time for Apple Inc to buy B&O

That's not going to happen

I think this is just a bizarre dream from certain B&O users

Moxxey, I was giving Beonut hope, I was not suggesting that Apple would do anything, and certainly it is not one of my dreams, so please take my comment as more of a response with no meaning, merely idle conversation, thank you

Peter

I think that B&O and Apple compliment each other well in terms of aesthetics (stick a B&O logo on the back of an iPhone and a B&O skin on the OS, and it would be instantly "recognisable" as a B&O product...), and the consumer-oriented OS that Microsoft can't really compete with.

That said, Apple (or anyone else) would only buy B&O to make money, directly or indirectly, and I can't see how they would...

Times are hard for B&O, perhaps more than for other companies - 10 years ago, a B&O DVD player was, 3-4 times the price of a cheap one.  Now it is 80 times the price of a cheap one.  Some people really can't tell the difference, and a 10-year design life is nonsense to someone who buys half a dozen DVD players a year from the supermarket for far less money than a DVD1 used to cost. Some people regard these things as consumable, throwaway items. They don't want to be stuck with last season's model. Plus they don't have to worry so much about the kids filling it with jam, having it stolen....

B&O's customer base falls into 2 main categories as far as I can see:  

• those like us that appreciate the brand, embrace its wonder, put up with its quirks and brush its failings under the carpet, but *usually* can't afford all the latest, greatest gear (or we're still in love with the one (or three!) we already have)

• those who are furnishing their super expensive new home, and want the best because it makes them "look better".  They don't know much (and care less) about the products/heritage etc - only that it is expensive, therefore it's what they want.

Apple is selling well to the free thinkers, but more especially to the youth market, who simply aren't in the market for what B&O produce. 

I reckon some collaborative products (like they have with Samsung) would sell to Apple and B&O customers alike, but not in any great numbers.

<snipped and put in general forum>

Soundproof,

Are you saying that Apple gives away it's lossless codec?  I don't know, just asking...  I haven't paid close attention to Apple's business practices in quite a few years, but there was a time when this would have been unheard of...  they tended to never license their software.  I would definitely be closer to buying a Bs5 if it supported this - don't look forward to re-ripping everything in to Windows lossless.

As far as iTunes integration goes, Apple seems to change iTunes quite frequently.  Some versions work with BS2 and/or BM-Link, others don't.  Since the B&O software didn't change, then it must be Apple that has broken the link (and then fixed it in the next point release or two).  Perhaps it is this experience that makes B&O hesitate to "fully embrace" Apple.  Also, like others say above, I don't see Apple being so warm about working with B&O.  A few years back, they rarely worked with anyone (don't know about today), and what's in it for Apple - a few thousand (or they say the BS5 is very successful, so may a few 10 thousand) lossless codec licences?  If you haven't noticed, Apple is a mass producer that already has large amounts of cache.

As much as I'd like to see better integration with Apple, I don't think B&O is big enough for Apple to care to bother.  I can also see Trip's point about locking into one vendor.  B&O definitely has a longer time horizon than every other consumer electronics company that I know of.  Remember not so long ago when "WinTel" was going to own the world?

Stan

Stan:

 B&O definitely has a longer time horizon than every other consumer electronics company that I know of.

I agree with this point but actually I would not say that, because we don't know if B&O will survive, even if there is a capital increase.

Don't think that things are eternal. This crisis can reset all the luxury industry especially small (and weak) companies like B&O.

The other scenario (high probability in my opinion) :  there's a possibility that B&O can be bought out by a much larger consumer electronics company as its luxury brand.

I don't think Apple has any interest in B&O. B&O is 'peanuts' for Apple. Why Apple would buy a stake in a company selling loudspeakers ?

B&O is our beloved brand but from a financial point of view this company is very weak.

It is simple to see that competition is harder than in 80's and 90's.

B&O is now too small to compete with others by providing breakthrough products because R&D needs a lot of money that B&O simply does not have.

The so poor BS5 is there to illustrate that B&O does not have the cash to provide high end integrated systems as it has provided in the past.

B&O business is now based on 'exclusivity' (look at  the ridiculous premium prices for its TVs ).

A brand for wealthy aesthete, nothing more. (I consider myself as an aesthete).

The question is now : are there enough wealthy aesthetes on the market ? I really hope so.

I'm not in the "Apple should buy B&O" camp, nor am I saying that B&O should go all-Apple. Just don't make it so very, very difficult for people to connect their Apple equipment to B&O. The fact that updates to B&O "break" the connection are due to the workarounds that B&O are implementing, because they won't create an Apple native interface - and has nothing to do with Apple, which works perfectly with products from a lot of other A/V manufacturers.

And what I'm saying is that if you wish to provide digital content to the market, then you can use Apple's codecs free of charge when providing this content, whether you sell it inside or outside the iTunes store.

soundproof:

And what I'm saying is that if you wish to provide digital content to the market, then you can use Apple's codecs free of charge when providing this content, whether you sell it inside or outside the iTunes store.

But is that all, i.e does the license cost for those who want to incorporate Apple lossless into their products, not their media delivery?

ouverture:

Moxxey, I was giving Beonut hope, I was not suggesting that Apple would do anything, and certainly it is not one of my dreams, so please take my comment as more of a response with no meaning, merely idle conversation, thank you

Peter

I was replying generically as it's a conversation/topic that is often debated. It's still a point and the point was replied to. Nothing more.

rayfenwick:

B&O's customer base falls into 2 main categories as far as I can see:  

• those like us that appreciate the brand, embrace its wonder, put up with its quirks and brush its failings under the carpet, but *usually* can't afford all the latest, greatest gear (or we're still in love with the one (or three!) we already have)

• those who are furnishing their super expensive new home, and want the best because it makes them "look better".  They don't know much (and care less) about the products/heritage etc - only that it is expensive, therefore it's what they want.

I'd would change the latter to 'people who have a high dispoable income and simply have no time or energy to pick their products, so walk in to B&O, think they are getting the best, then leave B&O to do the install for them'. There are more of these than people will silly money and want the products to make their place look better. Ok, I'm sure everyone enjoys the aesthetics, but there are lots of 45+ people who can't be bothered concerning themselves with HD v SD, Blu-ray v DVD, 200Hz v 100Hz or Panasonic Veira v Pioneer Kuro.

That's the majority share of the B&O userbase.

moxxey:

I'd would change the latter to 'people who have a high dispoable income and simply have no time or energy to pick their products, so walk in to B&O, think they are getting the best, then leave B&O to do the install for them'. There are more of these than people will silly money and want the products to make their place look better. Ok, I'm sure everyone enjoys the aesthetics, but there are lots of 45+ people who can't be bothered concerning themselves with HD v SD, Blu-ray v DVD, 200Hz v 100Hz or Panasonic Veira v Pioneer Kuro.

That's the majority share of the B&O userbase.

 

Yes, that's true enough. I'd grouped them together, but yes, I remember them well.  My boss's eyes would light up..... mine too, as it meant using decent coffee in the machine for once

I don't see how that would make sense for Apple to buy B&O. For what? When it comes to alumium processing apple pushes the limit, design is often excellent, quality is crap though. How many people do you enjoying their Ipods without protection case.

In regards to itunes as a platform. I am becoming really weary what is happening. NYC lost their Virgin CD store on Times-square  and the Union square location is closing in May. That leaves NYC without a major CD store ... Most cities actually do not have one anymore at this point.

Apple does sell out on quality a bit, even an Itunes Plus file is not good enough to drive BL9 or BL5.

I am actually shocked about the closure of virgin, first time I ever admitted that the end of the CD really might come sooner then I am ready for it. It's not Apples fault but I need someone to come up with a huge massive high quality library. And that won't be Apple, most don't appreciate the difference between lossless and 128 I guess.

JK

Stan:

Remember not so long ago when "WinTel" was going to own the world?

Uh ... some of us always knew wintel was only going to go downhill.  We are those who bought the stock at 15 and sold it at 200 in three years...  

... those of us who bought a new Mac in 1998 and never heard the word "antivirus"

jk1002:

 How many people do you enjoying their Ipods without protection case.

Never had a protection case on my iPods or Macs, much less my iPhone bought June 29, 2007.  Survived being left on my car's roof as I drove away, and picked it back from the middle of the street 40 minutes later.

I can assure you that after careful consultation with myself, we have decided that I am not wrong!

Our integration with Apple right now is pitch perfect in terms of the relationship between the two devices. Any improvement would be (I think we're all in agreement here) in the adoption of more media formats so a wider variety of file types can be supported. 

That being said, we all must take responsibility for our media. Different companies support different codecs and oftentimes there is an agenda attached. Heaven knows that is the case with Apple. There is a brave new world of stuff out there and one keeps their media in a niche or proprietary format at their own risk. 320kbps MP3 can be played on anything and sounds great. If I want to get more specialized than that, it is up to me to put on slippers rather than the world to lay down carpet. 

I think basic Apple integration (i.e. iPod) should be a definite for B&O. Apple TV is already connectable and controllable. IMO I think it should pretty much stop there....

2c

Mark, hear hear from here!

I endorse your plea (or the 2nd post's) ... I bought my Macbook mainly because of the enthusiasm of people on this forum for Apple ... and as you know from my posts I have loved every minute since I bought it.

Today I was at an Apple story trying to decide whether to buy a Macmini or Apple TV - my second substantial Apple purchase in basically 3 months. As well as looking at a TV tuner for the Macmini/Macbook and an external/NAS hard drive.

Even had an iPhone used as an iTunes remote demonstrated to ElliePhant -- she loved it (so come June I can see some iPhones joining the family).

Ed-2 (aka OlliePhant as Wings christened the Missus and Me)

i can highly recommend the elagto eye tv software and elgato hardware , i use a tiny little white box - about the size of a matchbox as my tv recorder and it's amazing , just plug an aerial in one end and the usb into your mac - voila !

i've had it over 5 years now and it just gets better and better , they update the software via the net and you get loads of wonderful new features all the time

quality of recordings is also impressive

i had the misfortune of trying out a btvision box yesterday - utter rubbish - made me want to get an appletv after playing with it i can tell you

terrible interface and awful quality on the bt box