Hi,

does anybody know  how well the HDD based products are designed technically?

As a harddisc will not survive as long as a B&O product I would like to know if a Beosound 3200 or a Beosound 5 will be useless when - let's say in about 5 years - the harddisc fails. Would the 3200 function as a CD player and radio  or doesn't it work if the hdd is destroyed?!

Hi TWG,

The 3200 ought to work just fine without the HDD, although I've not seen one fail yet.  In that instance you're taking no greater risk than someone buying an original BeoSound/System 2500 and wondering what would happen if the CD drive failed...or the cassette deck for that matter.  B&O seems to take care in choosing the elements in these systems, and have been largely successful.  

The issue with the 3200 has always been that you have no backup of the HDD contents, which is a fair point; but I think the target market was a bit older and not really as tech savvy as some of us here.  The expectation was that the HDD would really only contain copies of CD's which the owner already had, as opposed to files downloaded from the 'net.  And no offense intended to those here who have the 3200, I said 'target market'.

With the BS-5, I think its important to think of the internal HDD as a backup, in its own right, of the music held on the administrating computer; and to remember that other backups can be made across the household LAN.

As an example, from another environment, I purchased on of the original all-in-one G5 iMacs a little over 4 years ago.  During its tenure it experienced 3 failures, the mid-plane/main board, the AC power supply, and fatally, the logic board.  I replaced it about 2 months ago.  Through all of that I had also replaced (because I wanted more storage), the internal HDD and kept the old one.  When it finally died, I pulled out the 'new' HDD, and combined it with the 'old' HDD in an external enclosure.  Both work great!  And that's with the cheap, consumer drives which Apple use.  Don't B&O boast that they purchase 'Server Grade' drives somewhere in there marketing materials?

I would like to think that it would be possible to install another hard drive, but is it?

It might be useful to put in a larger capacity drive, but is it possible?

@Russ:

Thanks for the explanation. That means I still can use a BS3200 if the hdd is broken?! Great news.

@casdave:

The problem will be: In about 5 years we will have different interface standards for harddrives etc. IDE will be gone and there's just S-ATA etc. and THAT will be the problem with those components.

TWG:

@Russ:

Thanks for the explanation. That means I still can use a BS3200 if the hdd is broken?! Great news.

@casdave:

The problem will be: In about 5 years we will have different interface standards for harddrives etc. IDE will be gone and there's just S-ATA etc. and THAT will be the problem with those components.

 

Beomaster 5 is a computer, so it will be very easy to install a new HDD in it even in 5 years time, unless HDD technology changes radically - you never know with computers. SATA HDDs can still be installed in computers that are 5 years or older. However i guess the USB interface will probably be around for years, so even if HDD changes radically, it will be adaptable to be USB interface compatible with eg a caddy, so there won't be a problem. For BS3200, there will always be the potential problem of new interfaces making it obsolete in installing new HDDs. Having said that I think you can still buy the older IDE HDDs from around 5 years ago.

And don't forget the BeoMaster 5 is expected to support NAS drives as well, so the EtherNet connection on the back is the interface of the future.

So tell me Russ, how does a NAS fit in in a BM5/BS5 setup.

Systems based on hard disks face an interesting dilemma.

Hard disks fail, more often nowdays then previously. In the IT industry we have RAID, image backups, tape backups, offline storage etc to mitigate some risk. Standard drives on average fail in the 2-3 year mark.  B&O warranty is 2 years here.  The cost of replacing something out of warranty is very high. - Just found out with my BV7-40 DVD drive...

A previous poster was struck with a disappointing price to replace the Beosound 3200 hard disk, plus he had the loss of music to contend with. Not the position I would like to be in with a $5000 piece of kit...

The Beosound5 may allow some backup which is a step forward but what about the disk replacement should or when it fails? Bet the unit is a little more difficult to disassemble than my PC or laptop... Then there is the recovery of all the music.....

Not sure what others think of this....

beoaus.

i guess ssd is the future , hopefully bno will implement it asap

Yes, someone recently wrote about being quoted about £750 for replacing the ruined disk on a BS3200.

Someone else complained sbout HDD noise on their BS3200.

Things to think about.

this leads to another question on the Beosound 5:

Will it be usable if the HDD fails? I mean: Does the controller work or is the Firmware etc. installed on the harddrive? If yes this would be a very dumb construction ... ;-)

Russ:

Hi TWG,

The 3200 ought to work just fine without the HDD,

 

I need to be persuaded that this is actually true.

Will the BS3200 go through it's initialisation at switch on with a failed HDD?

Maybe, maybe not. Can you comment Keith Saunders??

TWG:

this leads to another question on the Beosound 5:

Will it be usable if the HDD fails? I mean: Does the controller work or is the Firmware etc. installed on the harddrive? If yes this would be a very dumb construction ... ;-)

Ahh... that's the crux of the question, isn't it?

From trolling this forum for over one year, it seems that no one who knows for a fact has made a definitive statement, but every time the subject comes up, someone says that just replacing the disk on a BS3200 won't do.

If true this means that the replacement disk has to be blessed (minimum) or even worse, loaded up with B&O software/firmware.  Poor choice from a systems survival standpoint, unless £750 each time is part of the budget!

750 euro is just a small part of the problem, IMO. Think about the time it will cost, ripping 400 cd's again to your new harddisk, in real-time.

Well here's what I have done and will do:-

First and prior to the arrival of my BS5, I recorded ll my music onto 2 x 320Gb Freecom Toughdrives. One kept on my desk, onein a safe.

The BM5 then "backed-up" on of the 320gb drives.

That has cost me approx GBP120 to have a double back-up of all my current music - +600 CD's ripped in WMA lossless and representing a several hundred hours of my time ripping. Well worth it I would say?

Second,  I will shortly be looking to see if I can back-up using the whole BM5 image using Acronis. However, B&O have a pen-drive tool kit that will enable full mirroring - available to dealers. I will be enquiring to see if this can become available. If not, then the second the unit goes out of warrenty, I will rip the HDD from the BM5 and image it off the BM5.

I can't see it being any more dificult than that.

10%

I've asked my dealer to swap the hard drive for SSD card.

This is a no go.

joeyboygolf:

Russ:

Hi TWG,

The 3200 ought to work just fine without the HDD,

 

I need to be persuaded that this is actually true.

Will the BS3200 go through it's initialisation at switch on with a failed HDD?

Maybe, maybe not. Can you comment Keith Saunders??

Given the 3200's lineage, I can't imagine that there would be a problem.  Any more than if the Cassette deck failed in an Overture.  Rememer that the 3200 isn't based on the HDD, that is a featured accessory.

Perhaps not the definitive answer you're looking for; but unless we hear from a service center, or someone on the Farm, I don't know that you'll get one.

Mr10Percent:

Well here's what I have done and will do:-

First and prior to the arrival of my BS5, I recorded ll my music onto 2 x 320Gb Freecom Toughdrives. One kept on my desk, onein a safe.

The BM5 then "backed-up" on of the 320gb drives.

That has cost me approx GBP120 to have a double back-up of all my current music - +600 CD's ripped in WMA lossless and representing a several hundred hours of my time ripping. Well worth it I would say?

Second,  I will shortly be looking to see if I can back-up using the whole BM5 image using Acronis. However, B&O have a pen-drive tool kit that will enable full mirroring - available to dealers. I will be enquiring to see if this can become available. If not, then the second the unit goes out of warrenty, I will rip the HDD from the BM5 and image it off the BM5.

I can't see it being any more dificult than that.

 

10%

 

While you have been (wisely) very cautious, the method doesn't really lend itself to ease of maintenance (adding new music etc). I feel that B&O have maybe missed an opportunity to add and promote a transparent back up feature for the BM5 data such that single system failures are recoverable. This may have gone some way to ease the fears of technophobes who may consider this their ideal digital music player but have heard of such crashes and data loss.

Not a show stopper of course but would have demonstrated an appreciation of the time/effort invested in assembling the archive by taking the responsibility away from the user.

I hate to seem thick...but won't most customers for BM-5 have their complete music library on the administrating computer?  Wouldn't this level of paranoia dictate that you have a backup of that HDD already?  So, given that BM-5 is at worst a sub-set of an existing library, isn't a 2nd or 3rd back-up awfully, awfully paranoid?

Russ

There was much talk early on of this being the digital music system for the computer-phobic, maybe slightly elder B&O owner (not wishing to sound ageist), and that your CD collection could be installed in the BM5 by third parties etc.

You are right - most will, but not all. My parents would likely be capable of operating the BS5 but wouldn't have a clue if they had to administer the music collection.

As I said, not a big point but could have been a selling point. 

Russ:

I hate to seem thick...but won't most customers for BM-5 have their complete music library on the administrating computer?  Wouldn't this level of paranoia dictate that you have a backup of that HDD already?  So, given that BM-5 is at worst a sub-set of an existing library, isn't a 2nd or 3rd back-up awfully, awfully paranoid? Russ

I keep my music on a separate HDD because a) I'm a heavy user of a travelling laptop and b) I cant store all my music and business files on the same laptop. Paranoid it may be but the chances of something going wrong with either my laptop or the HDD, I see as high. Insurance is cheap, my time is not.

In terms of back-up and adding music...it's easy. Just press "syncronise" and leave-go overnight. Both sources are fully matched. I'm sure it can be simpler and I'm sure a new solution will come if there is demand. However, what the BS5 has now does work.

10%

In my Opinion the BS5 has been created to store some files on the internal harddrive and the rest comes from a Server or NAS.

I have 2 backups of my files on different locations.

I hope I don't need a backup but it's better to have one because you loose a lot of time or money if your data is gone

Mr10Percent:

Russ:

I hate to seem thick...but won't most customers for BM-5 have their complete music library on the administrating computer?  Wouldn't this level of paranoia dictate that you have a backup of that HDD already?  So, given that BM-5 is at worst a sub-set of an existing library, isn't a 2nd or 3rd back-up awfully, awfully paranoid? Russ

I keep my music on a separate HDD because a) I'm a heavy user of a travelling laptop and b) I cant store all my music and business files on the same laptop. Paranoid it may be but the chances of something going wrong with either my laptop or the HDD, I see as high. Insurance is cheap, my time is not.

In terms of back-up and adding music...it's easy. Just press "syncronise" and leave-go overnight. Both sources are fully matched. I'm sure it can be simpler and I'm sure a new solution will come if there is demand. However, what the BS5 has now does work.

10%

I get that part 10%.  And you're thinking like me.  All of my stuff is on an internal HDD, which Mac OSX backs up for me automatically; no muss, no fuss.  I think most folks would see that as reasonable.  

As my library outgrows the internal HDD, I am already planning to build a RAID array to store the files (as you mention, the hardware is getting cheaper all the time.)  So far, so good.

Given those 2 situations, and yours, here's my question:  If 10% or I add a BM-5 to our existing systems (even mine without the future RAID array, just the Time Machine back-up), then it constitutes a third copy of the files which are stored on it.  Why then are some here bashing the BM/BS-5 because you can't easily make yet another (really redundant) copy of those same files.  Where's the problem?  Master copy on the computer not good enough?  Your main backup?  Why yet another?

That's all.

Russ

PS>  To answer my own question, B&O are rolling out a work-around for Windows users so that WMP can rip direct to the BM-5.  In that case, yes, you'd want a back-up.  But aren't most of us using music on our computers anyway?

As you say you've answered your own question - if the BM5 could rip directly (preferably from it's own optical drive but that's another story) and could truly operate (including maintenance/music addition etc) as a self contained unit and hid all of the PC/network-type stuff then it might suit my dad and other computer illiterate folk as an ideal, high quality digital music system. I'm not saying the BM5 is a complete miss, but I am certain it could have been something better.

My benchmark in these discussions is the Sky+ Satellite set top box +HD recorder - equally (if not more) complex inside yet idiot-proof to operate and has no outward hint of it's complex, digital internals. Both our parents have one, both are pensioners and both are really, really impressed - it's the first time since the advent of VCR's they've actually been able to record what they want without inadvertantly recording the weather forecast instead.