Hi, I  am glad I found this forum as it seems possible that I can get help here.

Before I decided to write I have read throgh the forum searching for information, found a lot but not enough to help me solve the problem.

Let me tell you the story.  I have bought this record player - B&O 1102 on e-bay last summer. Was cheap so I was happy. Of course it was supposed to be in perfect condition. Did not realized that to get a cartridge is much more expensive.  Now eventually after 7 month I managed to find affordable cartridge and bought mmc 20 s - the cheapest one, but maybe it will be enough for the start. Have no idea what is the condition of the needle. What should I look at???

So eventually, yesterday I have plugged the player in and tried it. Unfortunately it does not work properly. Luckily, at least visual condition of this player is almost perfect.

At first, when I  placed the record and pressed start, it started turning, the arm moved towards the record but stopped just before (outside the record, maybe 3 mm) and then immediately went back to its rest position. The wheel did not stop. It stoped when I pressed stop.

After several identical tests with different speeds I started to move the screws in the arm. It turned out that one (at the back) was for balancing the arm, the second (at the inner side) just for keeping the arm. I uncrewed this one totally but luckily managed to palce it back, after I had discovered that I can remove the counterweight from the top. I hope I have not done any harm to the tiny wire inside. Then I gave up and started reading forum.

Once I finished reading I got inside of the deck, tried to put some oil to the arm mechanism. Then I started to fight with this thing described in some other threads in this forum as "little brass pin in a brass sleeve". I used some penetration oil and then I gradually managed to move the pin a little bit. Eventually it started working, i.e. it can lift and lower the arm.

So I assembled the player back and now the situation is like this:

When I press 33 or 45 it starts turning, then the arm is moving towards the record, then it stops at the beginning of the record (now I think it stops in the correct  position). Then it lowers the needle onto the record and the arm goes back to its rest position without lifting up! And it does not stop turning. When I press stop the arm is lifted up and the player stops turning.

It works exactly the same with 33 and 45 (it finds proper position for both 12" and 7" records but instead of playing it, the arms goes back).

I do not know if it actually passes the audio signal because I have not tried to connect it to the amplifier yet. Of course doing these tests I had to be very careful in order not to destroy my needle.

So can you help me in this situatuin?

The player is quite nice and I hope it can be a good replace for my old polish player. Looks nice. The only thing is that it has the original Din plug replaced with two cinches, what as I read is a drawback in Beoworld.

Hope I will learn something new.

Regards

Adam

One more question - should there be any matt for the platter? I have not got any matt with this player. I am not sure if this alluminum platter is safe for records without placing any rubber or kork matt?

Nobody can help me?

It seems that there are two problems with my Beogram.  I will try to explaine again.

First is that after start (pressing 33 or 45) the arm moves properly and places the needle on record. But then immediately goes back to the rest position instead of playing record. So what can be the reason? I checked - it does the same - does not matter if there is a  record or not. Wether there is a record or not it lowers the arm and drags it back. How does it work? What is it controlled by?

Second - it dragges the arm back to the rest position without lifting it up. Only when I press stop the arm is lifted an the player stops turning the platter. How does it work? How should it work?

How these functions are or maybe how they should be controlled - mechanically? But how? Or electronically? Does anyone know? Please help me to figure it out. Please!

Thanks in advance

Adam

Does the needle actually touch the record ?

Have you checked the tracking force setting ?

Martin

I wonder if this might help.

Dillen:

Does the needle actually touch the record ?

Have you checked the tracking force setting ?

Martin

Yes, when the record is there the arm is going down and the needle touches the record but then immediately is dragged back to the arm rest position (without lifting up).

I do not know what is tracking force. What I only did was described in the first message.  I also balanced the arm to get equilibrium when is set to 0 (with the small screw at the back of the arm) and then set the weight of the needle to 1.5. Is this a tracking force?

Hope you can help.

Adam

Yes, that's the tracking force.

Is the needle intact ?
If the needle tip is missing or worn completely flat, the arm will not track the record correctly.
As Peter suggests, a wrong anti-skating setting could also be the problem.

Martin

Peter :

I wonder if this might help.

Thanks,  I do not get much from these drawings Peter.  I do not recognise which parts of deck are on these drawings.

Should I pay attention to the first or second drawing?

Adam

If you take the platter off, you will see what the diagrams represent. I would play with the anti-skating first - I realise that you will not have the test record!

It looks like a miracle but started playing...

Yesterday it did not.

However when I first checked today - with 33 rpm record - the arm started moving and it stopped on the edge of the record, went down, slipped of the record and dragged back as before. Then I stopped player, pressed 33 and this time I pushed the arm a bit farther and the neede dropped down on a record and started to play for the first time!

Then I tried with a 7"SP (45rpm) and it went OK. The arm stopped in correct position (without manual help) and the needle touched the record and started to play.

Then I tried several times with 33 and 45 records and it seems to work OK. I connected player to an amplifier for the first time! and it does play!

So what happened? I guess after I manipulated (the day before yesterday) inside with bits of oil and trying to get the little brass pin moving, I guess it needed some time...?

But as I look at it when I place an LP and start 33 the arm stops just at the edge of the record, this could be a bit farther to the centre. I do not know if I can trust that it will lower the needle on to the record each time so each time I have a pencil in the right hand just to be ready to lift the arm up and save the needle.

What do you think? Can this be regulated somehow?

I checked  the end of the record - it stops in correct position and the needle is lifted up and the arm goes back propely and player stops.

Adam

Peter - I do not have oscilloscope as well...

Martin sorry, I got so excited that it started working that I forgot to answer your question.

Yes the needle in my newly bought cartridge mmc 20S looks OK. The original cartridge mmc 20E - bought with the deck half a year ago has the needle broken.

So I am trying different records and there seem to be quite nice warm sound. Can only test very quiet just  now because my wife is asleep.

But it already happened again twice(!) that the arm stopped to early and the needle dragged back, probably because it was on the edge of the record... It is not safe for the needle. I wonder - if (presumably) player recognizes that it is not the proper surface but the edge of the record. why it does not lift the arm up before it starts going back to the rest position? It would be much safer for the needle... 

Did some more tests and it seems that the arm goes irregularly sometimes OK and sometimes a bit too far from the centre...

So how can I regulate this? Can this be connected to antiskating regulation? And can it be connected to tracking force setting?

Adam

Hi Adam.
The lower picture and text of Peter's diagram shows how to adjust the landing point of the stylus. You will need to lift off the platter to make sense of this.
If you are still struggling, I'll try and take a photo of mine, but it won't be until Sunday afternoon.

Andy T.

Thanks Andy,

I am looking at my record deck  and I cannot see these excentrics A and B :-(

Here are the photos how it looks when I take of the platter.

Pls point  where the excentrics are. Please also help how to adjust landing points.

Also on the drawing I cannot read what are the real dimension for 30cm record and for 17 cm record.

And how to set antiscating?

http://picasaweb.google.com/amisza63/20090228?authkey=Gv1sRgCP_WnfeT7NrYEg#5307654191819278114

 Regards

Adam

It sounds like the anti skating is fine. I agree the pictures are wilfully obtuse! The round bit in the centre is the spendle and this is looking from the front! A little tweak to the 30cm one is all that is required. I am afraid B&O service manuals are all a bit like this - you clearly need to have been shown first!!

Thanks very much for alll your help, but still I get nothing more from the instruction picture than I did in the beginning.

I will try to explain my doubts.

From the instruction picture:

I. I can guess where the centre spindle of the platter is

II. I do recognize the ring for SP 7" records

III. I can find in my record deck the two small plates with small discs in bottom right corner.

 But I can not find in my deck any of these A and B circles and excentrics which I can see on the instruction drawing and probably are for regulation. Where are they? And when I find them how to make this regulation?

To be sure that you understand my question I put some marks and question on the instruction drawing and here they are:

my_questions 

picture_of_my_deck-1 

picture_of_my_deck-2

Hope you can help

Thank you

Adam

Adam, I'm with you, and we will get this sorted sooner or later.
I just had a look under my platter, and it's identical to yours.
I must admit the diagram in the manual is truly awful.
If you bear with me, I'm just going to have a meddle and see if I can make an adjustment to my own.

Andy T.

Hope you can manage to sort this out. Pls let me know. I gave up for today.

I have to go to sleep now, but surely will be back and check for the answers and suggestions tomorrow.

Got the answer! Are you still there?

Ok, on your diagram with the red circles, where you put " I can also recognise this"
What looks like two spring clips actually have a tiny brass screw head in the middle of each one.
Turn this screw with a small screwdriver, and it becomes immediately apparent what they mean by 'excentrics'.
The screw was stiff, so make sure you have a good fitting screwdriver. You'll probably have to adjust them with very small movements, many times before you get it right.

Ther lower, left one in your pic, is for 30cm.
Hope this helps.

So the little black circles on the drawing actually are the same excentrics? This was one of my suspects because it is also marked on the drawing with A and B... but it just look so different. And the given information is just contradictory, so I suspected that each of the drawn small circles-discs are something else...  In one place on the drawing it is marked that "IN" is clockwise and "OUT" counterclockwise while in other place the other way round. I guess I will have to judge this by tests.

Thank you, I will try this when back at home - in the evening.

Regards

Adam

Ok. So I did give a try and played about with these excentrics for a while and this way moved the landing point more towards the centre.

And now it seems to work OK - the needle goes down on the record, plays the record (hooray!!!) till the end, the then needle goes up, the arm goes back to the rest position and the platter stops rotating.

I would like to thank you all: Andy, Peter and Martin for help.

But I have some more questions - doubts:

1) The needle was dragged back in the lowered position (scratching) when it was moved down too early and did not found the record. Much safer for the needle would be if it was lifted up before the arm was moved back. The same happens when there is no record on the platter. When I press 33 or 45 the arm is moving to its defined landing point, the needle goes down and is dragged on the platter back to the arm rest position.

I have read somewhere that B&O deck players are quite sophisticated regarding safety of the needle and the record. So is this kind of behaviour normal for B&O 1102 or there is still something else wrong with it?

2) The control button has 5 functions: 33/Stop, 45/Pause and Turn. What is the use of the TURN function? I know it is for turning but why/when should one use it?

3) I am used to my previous record player which has stroboscope light. This B&O 1102 has rpm regulation wheel but I cannot see any way to check if the rpm is accurate or not? Is there? I mean is there a way to do it without any special additional electronic equipment?

4) I am not sure, but it seems that this model 1102 is one of the basic models of B&O record players.  MMC20S is the basic cartridge from MMC20 series. I have read quite a lot data and info about B&O cartridges and needles. But sound does depend not only on the cartridge but on other factors as well.  My question is practical: Would the upgrade of this specific deck to a more sophisticated cartridge from MMC20 series bring significant or any upgrade in the sound?

In other words: do you think it is worth hunting for e.g. MMC20EN? In order to replace MM20S in THIS specific deck?

5) Do you have any spare protection cover for MMC20?

Regards

Adam

Hi Adam, glad you got it working

I don't quite undertand 1) - do you mean the turntable still drags the needle, or are you just concerned that it did before your repairs and adjustments? This model is just mechanics, so if something is stuck or misadjusted, anything can happen.

2) I believe TURN should just start the platter turning without engaging the arm mechanism. It's very handy for cleaning the record.

3) Google for something like "turntable stroboscope disk" and you should find a PDF of a stroboscope pattern - then just print it out and put it on! Of course light it with a mains powered lamp (incandescent / halogen / conventional fluorescent).

4) IMHO not really if your current cartridge is good. All of the original MMCs you can find are old and may just as well be actually worse than your 20S, even if they are advertised as never used. It's not the actual stylus that is the problem, but the suspension inside the cartridge. They get hard over time just sitting on the shelf. Especially the MMCx000 that was originally installed on these are probably all bad now.

If you really want an improvement in sound (and the 20S is not bad, either!) you should get a new compatible SMMC cartridge from Sound-Smith. Unfortunately they start at even more expensive prices than the replacements for the later MMCx cartridges, so it may only be practical for the more high-end turntable models.

But, if you can find a working original MMC20 for a reasonable price, it's good to have one as a spare if nothing else. I managed to grab a good MMC20EN for 25 euros last year on eBay, and it's still in service in my BG6000.

Hi ,

1) I meant that when the  needle is landing smoothly on the surface of the record that it plays music nicely and safely (I hope).

But when  a) the needle landed on the edge of the record or outside of the record (like I had before the regulation) or b) when there is no record at all then the needle is put down on the platter and dragged back.

So one has to be careful not to press 33 or 45 when there is no record on the platter. And not to press 33 when there is 45 SP or EP record. In these cases the needle is put down on the platter and dragged back. This must be very harmful for the needle.

Is such a behaviour normal for this type of Beogram (1102) or there is still something wrong with my player???

2) Thanks. Yes, for cleaning records, you are right.

3) Thanks, just found nice strobo disc picture to cut out

4) I see.

Adam

What about my question? Thanks

Adam

The antiskating effect will cause a drag of the tonearm away
from the platter center, that's normal.
It's to compensate for the physics causing a drag inwards (towards the center) when playing
a record. It's a question of friction and speed of the media being lower towards the center.

And yes, (or actually no) - you shouldn't start an older Beogram without a record, they have no
protection for this.

Martin

B&O recognised this problem as the range of decks that took over from the this series have a record detection mechanism - it weighs the record and if not there the arm will not drop. If it is any consolation, this is one more thing to go wrong! The arms are so light weight that the stylus is unlikely to come to much harm if only done a few times!