Right then, here goes.

I don't give a stuff about the environment and I will live my life, such as there is left, to the full!

If you feel the need to walk over to your Avant and bend down and switch it on everytime you use it then ..........!!!!

What about the floor covering that you are wearing out? You will soon need new shoes at that rate! Don't they have a carbon foot print?

In time, no doubt, you will hurt your back with all that bending down, you will be on benefits. The rest of the population will pay and all because you wouldn't leave your B&O on standby!

I'm with you Graham!

Dave:

I was not aware that switching on and off at the power point put a risk on the life of the power supplies of the electronics - myth or fact i want to know!  It sounds like an unrealistic theory.

That would be usually the aging power supply caps. They may run just fine as long as they remain hot, but once you turn the equipment off and it cools down, especially a switched mode power supply may not turn on anymore. But that failure is not caused by the power down - it just chooses its time to be then. Those caps would've soon got so bad that the power supply would fail while running.

But from running server computers - often years with no physical downtime - I've gotten the practice to make the backups and restore preparations just before swithing them off. There's a pretty good chance that the hard drives or something else will not start anymore...

Regarding the original topic, my "first line" gear is all from the late 80s or 90s. Their standby consumption is so large that I haven't even dared to measure it - just feel the heat. I unplug them all when I know I won't be back for some days.

Oh... calm!!!

We are not saying you should not care about the environment by not turning your AVANT off. But that turning it off will have NO impact on the environment, nor on your bill.

There are plenty of important things that can be done in favor of the environment, but turning off you B&O is not one.

p.

joeyboygolf:

Right then, here goes.

I don't give a stuff about the environment and I will live my life, such as there is left, to the full!

Graham - I admire your honesty, and you're entitled to your opinion as much as I am to mine.

One thing though - If you have children or grandchildren, then what legacy are you going to leave them? It's fine to say that most major changes in the environment won't affect you in your lifetime, but as the majority of the body of research in this area suggests that it will eventually have a big impact, then it is not you (or I - possibly, I'm younger than you) that will bear the consequences. Great to have your facetious attitude today, as it won't be you paying in the future.

Just ask someone from a country at the 'coal-face' of climate change. I'm sure Dave can tell you all about the huge water shortages in Australia, caused because it hasn't rained for years in areas that previously experienced precipitation. But never mind eh, as long as you can afford the leccy bill it will be ok....

joeyboygolf:

Right then, here goes.

I don't give a stuff about the environment and I will live my life, such as there is left, to the full!

If you feel the need to walk over to your Avant and bend down and switch it on everytime you use it then ..........!!!!

What about the floor covering that you are wearing out? You will soon need new shoes at that rate! Don't they have a carbon foot print?

In time, no doubt, you will hurt your back with all that bending down, you will be on benefits. The rest of the population will pay and all because you wouldn't leave your B&O on standby!

You must really love your life Graham!

Johnbarker, at an educated guess this man most probably doesn't give a rats about anyone elses future...

I've said more than enough here, that's my opinion which yes we are all entitled to! Sorry if it's harsh but the combination of a painfully pessimistic outlook, and what appears to be contempt towards OUR environment makes me twitch. Turning things off at the powerpoint doesn't make a great deal of a different, in one home, but it does if everybody did it... 1+1 =? Its about the attitude, not the turning off of a tv...

I think i'm experiencing a culture shock here, you'd probably be glared down in this country if you annouced your attitude that turning things off at the power points makes no difference. It does, and that's final

How are things going over there with the heaviest snowfall recorded in london in 18 years? We've had a record breaking 45 degree heat wave in the past week with power blackouts lasting up to 24 hours, but it's ok we don't need to worry at all and the small steps don't make any diffrence

While "every little helps", to coin someone else's catchphrase the answer lies with legislation forcing manufacturers to reduce overall power usage of products and appliances, especially those connected long term (fridges/ freezers/ TV's/Set to boxes/ chargers etc.).

Some of this has been in place for a good while. Other products are just coming under the spotlight.

Read here for the US Energy Star programme.

You can either try to persuade everyone to do something or else persuade a small number to make everyone do it. The latter always seems to be more effective.

Turning it off at the powerpoint makes a big difference. It's been estimated that if the current rate of plasma and lcd adoption continues in the UK, the isles will need two nuclear powerplants to run televisions alone.

A CRT-screen consumes about half of what an LCD-screen draws, while a plasma adds another 50% to the consumption of an LCD. It all adds up.

The Stand-By button is under attack from the EU, for the very simple reason that all the power wasted to keep a lot of gadgets button-ready is a big problem. As recently as in December of 2008, they made some pretty stringent rulings, in order to assist in saving energy, and in reducing the impact on the environment of stand-by functions.

Here's the EU Commission regulation now implementing the stand by directive:

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2008:339:0045:0052:EN:PDF

The first consequence of that is that appliances on stand-by must have extremely low power consumption rates, and that new appliances will be mandated to comply with these levels.
If you don't give a rat's ass about these efforts, that's up to you, but it will clearly have an impact, and may make high-end a/v installations with everything on stand-by a thing of the past: http://info.hktdc.com/alert/eu0901c.htm

It really does make a difference: http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/feb/20/energyefficiency.smartmeters

Here's cnet's review of television power consumption: http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-6475_7-6400401-2.html

soundproof:

Turning it off at the powerpoint makes a big difference. It's been estimated that if the current rate of plasma and lcd adoption continues in the UK, the isles will need two nuclear powerplants to run televisions alone.

A CRT-screen consumes about half of what an LCD-screen draws, while a plasma adds another 50% to the consumption of an LCD. It all adds up.

BV7-32 (LCD): Typical: 99W; standby: 0.8W

AVANT (CRT): Typical 127 watt/stand-by < 2 watt

So you see you should not beleive everything you read without verifying first. I agree with you on plasma, but LCD consume a lot less. And newer, LED backlit LCD even less. Most people buy LCDs now that they come in large sizes.

And this is about when the TV is on, not off or standby.

I couldn't resist responding to this thread, though I realize that my opinions on this subject probably won't be well received and certainly don't pertain to B&O equipment.

I'm a hunter and conservationist.  If those two things sound contradictory, please let me point out that here in the USA, hunters like myself pour much more money in to conservation than any environmentalist or environmental group has ever even thought of giving.  Each of us (hunter, non-hunter, outdoor enthusiast, or indoor hermit) has a vested interest in the environment as things that negatively impact the environment ultimately hurt us all.  Even the pale guy who sits in front of his Playstation 3 eating Doritos and playing role playing games most of the day will be impacted if we aren't good stewards of our ecosystems.

However, many of us in the USA feel that the "global warming" thing has been overdone and actually has little to do with environmental concerns and everything to do with controlling people, justifying new taxes, and growing government.  The past couple of years we've had some unusually cold weather nation-wide, and I've noticed that the global warming pundits are now conveniently calling it "climate change".  I don't know what it's like in Europe, but here in the USA we also get to hear many conflicting views on this subject.  For instance, the head of NOAA (our national weather service) as well as the chairman of the meteorological department at the state university have recently written articles essentially saying that global warming is a fallacy.

As a student of science, here's my take:  Historically, the earth goes through periods of warming and cooling.  We may be going through a period of warming, but I don't think that's for certain.  Likewise, if the earth is going through a period of warming, I'm not sure that man is to blame.  Let me be clear, do I think we have a responsibility to future generations when it comes to preserving the environment and preventing pollution?  Absolutely, and I put my money where my mouth is.  Do I think that that the fact that global warming is not agreed upon by the experts somehow absolves me from conserving?  No, but it's still an undecided issue, and IMHO should therefore not be used as an excuse to legislate new restrictions or levy new taxes.  When I hear things like, "You can either try to persuade everyone to do something or else persuade a small number to make everyone do it. The latter always seems to be more effective." my ears perk up as that sounds conveniently totalitarian.

I realize that this is a contentious issue and that most of my fellow BeoWorlders are primarily European and therefore probably feel different about this subject than I, but I wanted to offer an opposing view.  This past November, I had a couple of friends from the UK come over to do some wing-shooting.  We spent a week duck and quail hunting (as well as doing a fair amount of in-shore fishing).  In that time, I got to hear their "take" on things like our politics, the environment, etc. and it was very interesting as their perceptions of things were often quite different than mine and most Americans.  The dialogue with those guys made for some really interesting dinner conversations, and, ultimately, led to a richer understanding of some of the issues (from both points of view).  That's why I'm sharing my views here.

Just my .02,

Mark

Dave:

joeyboygolf:

Right then, here goes.

I don't give a stuff about the environment and I will live my life, such as there is left, to the full!

If you feel the need to walk over to your Avant and bend down and switch it on everytime you use it then ..........!!!!

What about the floor covering that you are wearing out? You will soon need new shoes at that rate! Don't they have a carbon foot print?

In time, no doubt, you will hurt your back with all that bending down, you will be on benefits. The rest of the population will pay and all because you wouldn't leave your B&O on standby!

 

You must really love your life Graham!

Johnbarker, at an educated guess this man most probably doesn't give a rats about anyone elses future...

I've said more than enough here, that's my opinion which yes we are all entitled to! Sorry if it's harsh but the combination of a painfully pessimistic outlook, and what appears to be contempt towards OUR environment makes me twitch. Turning things off at the powerpoint doesn't make a great deal of a different, in one home, but it does if everybody did it... 1+1 =? Its about the attitude, not the turning off of a tv...

I think i'm experiencing a culture shock here, you'd probably be glared down in this country if you annouced your attitude that turning things off at the power points makes no difference. It does, and that's final

How are things going over there with the heaviest snowfall recorded in london in 18 years? We've had a record breaking 45 degree heat wave in the past week with power blackouts lasting up to 24 hours, but it's ok we don't need to worry at all and the small steps don't make any diffrence

Oh dear Dave, do you really believe everything you read in the papers? I only live 40 miles or less from the centre of London and my front lawn is still GREEN!

Londoners are mostly "jessies" who panic at the first sight of snow and the place comes to a standstill if it should get to more than half an inch deep!!

In Scandinavia, where it really snows they laugh at the Brits so your sympathy is somewhat misplaced methinks.

If you can't cope with the conditions in Australia, give it back to the people who had no problems livng there for thousands of years. The Aussies themselves organised and encouraged the population explosion in that part of the world, now you've got to live with it, your complaining because it's getting a bit inhospitable!

Hi all,

Several things I would like to add to the fray....

I was a real doubter that turning things off at the wall socket would make any difference to my energy consumption.... and I was wrong... about 2 years ago I started turning almost all non essential appliances, power boards etc off at the wall socket, the result about a S$50.00 + savings per month! Thats about 170kwh savings per month at todays rate, to me that is a measurable and significant difference...

So for the last 2 years, and now I have to be honest here, that the only things I leave on standby are, the fridge, 1 LCD TV as I can't reach the power socket and 2 B&O sound systems BS3000/BM6000.... (yes I know not essential... )....

For those of you concerned about energy saving lights, well I have to admit that I was horrified about 2 years ago when I heard that for instance in Australia they would be banning incandescent lamps (not sure Dave, is it already in?). From a designers standpoint I couldn't stand the harsh flat lighting produced by the options available at the time.  Now this will happen in most countries, Singapore is also already having educational commercials and I'm sure the laws will soon follow.

Fortunately though, technology is moving ahead quickly enough that we will not all be caught in the harsh glare of white lights, manufacturers are striving to match the colour temperature (the yellow glow of the light)  of the incandescent lamp in both PLC / flourescent and now things such as LED which is incredibly low energy consumption. They are also developing  new ways to control the light beam to stop the flat, unflattering light you used to get from the PLC / flourescent, so we can have both flood and spot lighting.

And so finally beginning of last year I installed in table lamps etc warm white PLC lamps. I still have to change any downlights to LED, I'm getting some samples next month as they can now match the output of a 50W halogen lamp.

But for me, I do believe we all can make a difference in our and everyones lives if we make small simple changes on a daily basis, turn off an unused light, walk to the local shop, buy local produce, use biodegradable detergents, take our own bags to the supermarket etc. 

Laurence.

Mark I absolutely agree with you.

My thoughts exactly, and I would have written something like that of this forum was in Swedish. Not sure that my english skills would get my points as clearly written as you got yours.

In my branch, we follow the weather during summer very closely. The branch has got nothing to do with weather research, far from it, but our economic success has got everything to do with weather, fair and warm weather that is.

From the summers in this decade, I can only say that the weather has been far from fair in the south of Finland, for example, last summer -08 was one of the coldest and rainiest in man-memory. This winter has been pretty cold too, although with very little precipitation. Last winter (07-08) was one of the warmest winters ever in the South, and everyone true to the catastrophic sceneries ringed their alarm bells. Now this winter seems to be pretty normal. The climate is still too complex to fully understand it.  

Scientists seem to be looking at the climate with macro-lenses instead of wide-angle lenses.

j0hnbarker:

joeyboygolf:

Right then, here goes.

I don't give a stuff about the environment and I will live my life, such as there is left, to the full!

Graham - I admire your honesty, and you're entitled to your opinion as much as I am to mine.

One thing though - If you have children or grandchildren, then what legacy are you going to leave them? It's fine to say that most major changes in the environment won't affect you in your lifetime, but as the majority of the body of research in this area suggests that it will eventually have a big impact, then it is not you (or I - possibly, I'm younger than you) that will bear the consequences. Great to have your facetious attitude today, as it won't be you paying in the future.

Just ask someone from a country at the 'coal-face' of climate change. I'm sure Dave can tell you all about the huge water shortages in Australia, caused because it hasn't rained for years in areas that previously experienced precipitation. But never mind eh, as long as you can afford the leccy bill it will be ok....

Quite right John, it won't be me paying in the future. I've paid all my life and now I'm near to retirement or death (whichever?) I can honestly say that I'm bloody fed up with paying!! Quite frankly, it's about time that you stood up and shouldered your share 'cos I've had a bellyfull.

That's where I'm coming from and when you get to my age, if our expensive education system which, by the way I paid for, has worked to any degree then you might just feel the same.

@Phil London:

Took it as obvious that it was understood those relationships were between CRT/LCD/PLASMA, and with the sets on.
Here's the scientist warning about the requirements for two nuclear plants, should present flatscreen adoption rates continue.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2006/aug/13/energy.nuclearindustry

You write I shouldn't believe everything I read. I'm a very critical reader, and I'm quite disappointed by some of the attitudes expressed in this thread.

soundproof:

Turning it off at the powerpoint makes a big difference. It's been estimated that if the current rate of plasma and lcd adoption continues in the UK, the isles will need two nuclear powerplants to run televisions alone.

A CRT-screen consumes about half of what an LCD-screen draws, while a plasma adds another 50% to the consumption of an LCD. It all adds up.

BV7-32 (LCD): Typical: 99W; standby: 0.8W

AVANT (CRT): Typical 127 watt/stand-by < 2 watt

So you see you should not beleive everything you read without verifying first. I agree with you on plasma, but LCD consume a lot less. And newer, LED backlit LCD even less. Most people buy LCDs now that they come in large sizes.

And this is about when the TV is on, not off or standby.

I just purchased a device sold in the US called a Kill a Watt meter.  It plugs into a wall outlet and measures the amount of electricity consumed by anything plugged into it.  I measured my system a Beovision 4, Beosystem 3, Beolab 7.2, 2- BL 8000, a cable box and Samsung blueray player.  All these products consume 50 watts of power in standby.  When the system is on the power consumption increases to a steady 500 watts.   Since I on average I watch the TV two hours a day that equals 1000 watts used, the 22 hours a day the system is in standby equals 1100 watts.  Turning the system completely off equals a 50% power savings.  

I have found a product made in the US called Green switch.  It is a wall switch that has wall outlets and switches that contain little receivers that communicate with the main switch.  You can install these outlets and switches anywhere in the home and then use the central switch to turn off all the phantom power users in your home either at night or while you are away.  This is good because unlike the first response in this thread I also have rear channel speakers that are difficult to connect to a central power strip with a switch on it.  check out  http://greenswitch.tv/products.cfm?  and  http://www.p3international.com/products/special/P4400/P4400-CE.html

Yes, Expoman, stated and actual rates vary quite a bit.

What some seem to miss is that the consumption you indicate, for standby, multiplied by the number of homes in the UK, amount to quite a bit, at a time when energy abundance is a thing of the past. So expect gov't to take a long hard look at energy profligacy.

I do not want, by contradicting you to appear as someone who does not care about the environment, but it is the example you gave that is not valid, in my point of view.

soundproof:

should current plasma adoption rate continue

As I said, I agree with you on Plasma, they consume a lot, however, the article is from 2006, and since LCD have become a lot more popular than plasmas. LCD's electricity consumption is lower than CRT, and the newer generation consume even less. 

The original question was whether it is worth turning your B&O kit off completely, and as I said earlier, with any recent B&O kit, the answer, is no. As it will not have an impact on what we care about, the environment and the bill. And if like me you care about the environment they are plenty of other things you should do that can make a difference.

One thing that these studies never mention is that energy that is "wasted" by those appliances is not wasted, but is released as heat, in your house. Therefore your heater, controlled, I hope by a thermostat, will turn off a little bit earlier, saving exactly as much energy as was "wasted" by your other appliances. So you are only really wasting when the heater is not on at home.

PhilLondon:

One thing that these studies never mention is that energy that is "wasted" by those appliances is not wasted, but is released as heat, in your house. Therefore your heater, controlled, I hope by a thermostat, will turn off a little bit earlier, saving exactly as much energy as was "wasted" by your other appliances. So you are only really wasting when the heater is not on at home.

Sorry Phil - that's bol@)cks.

What about the half of the world where this heat energy isn't wanted? I'm sure Dave down in Adelaide will have to crank up the air con (powered by, you guessed it!) to remove this unwanted energy.

In my case, I have my heating on sparingly as I work long hours. Should I leave all my appliances on standby to 'heat' my home when I'm not in? To whom exactly is this conferring a benefit? I suppose my cats might appreciate it, but that's about it! By the time I get home it will have dissipated anyway - someone here want to explain the thermodynamics behind this heat transfer, because it will all have leeched out of my walls by the time I get home anyway, but like I say, at least I've kept the cat toasty.

expoman:

I just purchased a device sold in the US called a Kill a Watt meter.  It plugs into a wall outlet and measures the amount of electricity consumed by anything plugged into it.  I measured my system a Beovision 4, Beosystem 3, Beolab 7.2, 2- BL 8000, a cable box and Samsung blueray player.  All these products consume 50 watts of power in standby.  When the system is on the power consumption increases to a steady 500 watts.   Since I on average I watch the TV two hours a day that equals 1000 watts used, the 22 hours a day the system is in standby equals 1100 watts.  Turning the system completely off equals a 50% power savings.  

You have to be careful when interpreting the measurements of these power meters. Most cheap (read: affordable, good ones are expensive) power meters can't compensate for power factor, and with inductive/capacitive loads the reading can be way off. Another difficulty for them are switched mode power supplies running on little load (yes, that means most currenct equipment on standby!). SMPS on standby tend to only consume current for a very short time during the peaks of the AC cycles, and this will also cause non-True-RMS meters to read way too much.

So, if you have one of these meters, don't be alarmed when a flat tv on standby shows 40W or something equally ridiculous - it is probably just one of the load types that the meter can't handle accurately. When the equipment is running at "full power" so to speak, the readings will be much closer to truth.

1 - 2 - 3 -- that's the power consumption relationship between old style CRT, LCD and Plasma. Now that manufacturers have been given much more stringent power consumption levels to comply with, we may expect this to improve somewhat.

The "heat is not wasted" argument above is specious - though it has been used by lobbyists working hard on behalf of the CE industry.

It's incredibly convenient to have things on stand-by. In my office alone, where I am writing this, I have a harddisk, a computer, a large display screen, a BeoVision 8, a BeoSystem 6500, an STB, a dvd-player, an AppleTV, and LC2, a Powerbook G4, an HP printer, an Airport Express unit and a DAC -- usually on standby. There's also a mobile phone charger. That's one room, and this convenience comes at a price.

An average UK home would reduce its annual electricity bill by about 8-10% by being vigilant when it comes to stand-by enabled appliances. More importantly, the energy consumption of the entire nation would either fall, or be channeled to more worthwhile uses, while not driving up the price due to reduced overall demand.

Heating or cooling of a room is better handled with the appropriate elements and control circuitry, and not through lobbyist-speak.
We are dealing with a major problem. 85% of the electricity consumed by a CE a/v device such as a dvd-player is consumed while it's in standby. Given the projections as to energy demand/supply, we can expect that a lot more attention will be paid to this area.

Some stat's for the UK - now let's hear how insignificant and uninformed this is:

The average Brit has about 25 devices at home so between them they take quite a toll on our emissions tally and our bank balance, even when we think they're 'off'.

• If everyone in the UK stopped using standby for a year, the entire population of Glasgow could fly to New York and back and we'd still cut greenhouse gases
• Quitting standby in the UK would save £700m of energy in the UK annually - enough to pay the energy bills of nearly 800,000 homes
• If the whole world followed suit, it would avoid 1% of global CO₂ emissions, about 240 million tonnes of CO₂

Since you were so skeptical of the Guardian article, which holds true just as much today: Here's one from the WSJ, dealing with standby-mode. Hey - 26% of CA energy consumption is due to stand-by functions (so called vampire appliances. Great!) http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122783062843762925.html

The cumulative result is huge. A study by the European Commission found that Europeans waste €7 billion ($9 billion) a year paying for appliances in standby mode, which account for about 10% of total energy use. The drain can be higher. A study by the University of California, Berkeley, found that such snoozing machines consume as much as 26% of electricity used in gadget-stuffed homes in California. 

I had never heard about this lobbyist speech, what I said I learnt at uni, when studying thermodynamics, 20 years ago, well before that whole global warming even started.

Of course, my comment was a bit sarcastic, the heat generated being negligible.

soundproof:

Heating or cooling of a room is better handled with the appropriate elements and control circuitry, and not through lobbyist-speak.

I also learnt that heat generation from electrical appliances is 100% efficient. All the electricity is transformed into heat. Which is not the case when burning fuel.

Also, when I say it is not necessary yo turn off your B&O kit, I am only talking about the B&O stuff, which has the double transformer thingy that gives a "extremely low power consumption"* as wanted by the EU, and has had it for many years unlike other brands. This is for this kind of attention to detail that I like this brand.

PhilLondon:

 

 

I also learnt that heat generation from electrical appliances is 100% efficient. All the electricity is transformed into heat. Which is not the case when burning fuel

Phil - please explain how this is beneficial in warmer climates? I see your line of argument with regard to Europe, but fail to see how this heat energy is useful in warm environments? It becomes doubly wasteful, because energy is then thrown into the system to remove it through air conditioning etc!

j0hnbarker:

Phil - please explain how this is beneficial in warmer climates?

I won't, as I just said:

PhilRobin:

you are only really wasting when the heater is not on at home.

But I am just saying that most so called studies are forgetting about this point. And when they compute a figure for the UK for example, you could halve all the figures of wasted energy (assuming people heat their home 6 months per year).

Which makes me lose trust in this studies, as a real unbiased scientific study would have mentioned that.

---

Reasonably low consuming products on standby still remain a tiny portion of the whole energy consumption. And it is much more efficient to try to reduce energy consumption where it really matters: Transport, Heating, Lighting. Reduce transport energy by 1% and you've achieve a LOT more than turning CE devices off instead of standby mode.