moxxey:

Beolab:

I don´t think anyone can answer why B&o haven´t put in a descent video engine /Scaler, besides the production section at B&o in Struer.

I'm sorry Beolab, but you're misleading people here. Yes, the MKII lacks the BS3. However, for some SD broadcasts, the MKII displays this content better than, say, the MKIII, which has to up-scale for the 1080p screen.

By telling users that the MKIII is the definitive answer, is absolutely incorrect. Watch ITV on any terrestrial channel, here in the UK, and you'll soon find that you'll see a number of issues - artifacts around football players, poor panning and so on. Indeed, watching some SD DVDs on the MKIII results in other issues. The picture looks more 'washed out' than it does on the MKII, due to upscaling.

Watching some SD channels (like ITV) on my 2006 BV8-26 is better and more enjoyable than the BV7-40 MKIII.

 

Oh

I hope that the new bv7 doesn't have all those picture problems

I am not sure a case is easily winnable. All B&O have to maintain is that the set is designed for HD content, that playing SD content is a stopgap measure until all content is HD, and that SD content will always display some minor problems due to the incompatibilty of screen resolution and media resolution. Also if the set is two years old you would have to demonstrate on a comparable set from two years ago, not a current competitor model. Frankly I would spend the money you are about to spend on lawyers on exchanging the set, negotiate a trade-in (hopefully no cost to you) and upgrade to a mark 3, or move on to something else. You are understandably upset but I do  wonder whether the outcome will be worth the effort.

propaganda:

I am not sure a case is easily winnable. All B&O have to maintain is that the set is designed for HD content, that playing SD content is a stopgap measure until all content is HD, and that SD content will always display some minor problems due to the incompatibilty of screen resolution and media resolution. Also if the set is two years old you would have to demonstrate on a comparable set from two years ago, not a current competitor model. Frankly I would spend the money you are about to spend on lawyers on exchanging the set, negotiate a trade-in (hopefully no cost to you) and upgrade to a mark 3, or move on to something else. You are understandably upset but I do  wonder whether the outcome will be worth the effort.

This is very very good advice...

moxxey

 

The MKIII is the best LCD B&o can offer today, but buy the BV4 instead if you don't like the lag artefact´s. I see the BV7-32  9 Hours every day, and we got the Bv7 40 MK III besides the BV7 32 so i now the bad artefact's´s in the Bv7-32 on DVD playback. You need higher bitrate than 5mbt/s on a DVD to get a clear picture on Bv7 32.  The  artefact's are showned because of the "Vision Clear" picture enhancements and interpolation movie mode calculation are set to high for the little video processor to handle when it pick up a poor video signal with low bitrate like a DVD or SD sat.

 It´s like if your on LSD, then your brain cant handle all information you pick up, and you often get head-burn or hallucination. If  you could turn off all the real time enhancement you could get less lag in the picture!

So this problem are not new, and why a reasonably priced LCD got less artifact´s is because of no "real time enhancement"

I hope everyone understands now how it works out under the hood. Poor signal or low bitrate= the video engine have to work harder=massive artifact´s

Great signal with high bitrate like on blue-ray 17- 30Mbit/s= less artefact's.

(And a fact: The plasma was made for watch film and fast moving content like the CRT tube.

LCD was in the beginning made only for display slow computer pictures, not fast moving pictures)

 

 

 

 

 

Regards

Beolab:

Great signal with high bitrate like on blue-ray 17- 30Mbit/s= less artefact's.

Yes, but my point was that you didn't read Rob's original problem: his dealer stated that his problem was that the incoming television signal was too poor, which resulted in lagging and 'effects' when watching TV. Rob also stated this happened on DVDs, too.

Problem is that, if the signal is poor, the BV7-40 MKIII (which I own) will show the picture even more poorly than the MKII! So, for that scenario, the MKIII is not the solution. The solution is to improve the incoming signal, first. You can only do that through Sky, if the Freeview signal is weak.

A MKIII is the best solution for a high-quality incoming signal. Sky HD and Blu-ray do the MKIII justice. SD DVDs and a based SD signal, do not. That's what Rob is using.

Rob,

You sound really unhappy with the BV7 but, whatever your magistrate friend tells you, I do not think you are likely to be successful with an unfit for purpose claim after two years. If you are that unhappy I suggest you either try an HD service such as Sky (have you checked the signal strength your DTV tuner is picking up?) or cut your losses now and trade the TV in or sell it privately and buy something else.

Your comments about lag are an issue with LCDs (of all types) and different people respond to it in different ways. And I believe it is a bigger issue if you are running SD signals (digital or otherwise) into a 1080 screen. If you search other (non-B&O) AV forums on the web you will find many conclude that the worse possible results are obtained running SD on 1080 - 720 seems to be OK but 1080 scaling is just too much.

I'm also not sure that comparing a DVD result on a BV7 to a Sony or Panasonic is actually that meaningful either. Each set uses its own proprietary scaling/driver software and hardware and each is likely to handle different aspects of the image in a different way. What I mean is that what the BV7 does well, the Sony may do badly, and vice versa.

For what it is worth, I have a BV6 and use DTV. If I sit real close to the screen I see some really pixellated movement at times. So much so I think, why did I replace the CRT! However, from my normal viewing distance it just isn't noticeable. But this is only a 26" screen (more than big enough for me as I don't like TVs that take over the room) and it is a 720 screen, not a 1080. And for every image that looks poor on the LCD, compared to my previous CRT, there's another that looks better.

 

 

Hardwriter:

........not sure that comparing a DVD result on a BV7 to a Sony or Panasonic is actually that meaningful either.

Not sure I agree here - if it is better then in proves it can be done, regardless of the manufacturer.

At the price involved there is no excuse for not being the best in class in all modes.

Sorry, Puncher. I meant that the DVD comparison was not likely to prove much in terms of "unfit for purpose".

On your second point, I agree that we might like to think that B&O prices mean we will the best performance in every respect but surely you can't really believe that a company the size of B&O can outperform the R&D departments of the biggest Japanese electronics companies in every respect? Or that the profit B&O make on the relatively small number of very-expensive-to-manufacture TVs B&O makes can fund the same size R&D teams that Sony or Panasonic can afford?

Hi Chaps

Very interesting reading your views.

My point of view is as follows: On day 1 we complianed about the lag - we were fobbed off for a long time that all sets do it, had aerials replaced, tv's replaced, etc.  After 1 year they got B&O technical to blaim the compression of signals. 

Now if everyone stands back of their technical knowledge and acts as a layman.  A standard 40" TV is crica £1000-2000 from Argos.  B&O BV7 was £7kish from memory.  You would think this was flawless.  As a layman I do not expect to be told their are issues once I have bought it.  Whether it is good with computer image, dvd, DTV, HD, terrestirial signals, etc is irrelevant.  Fit for purpose is reletive to a layman what they would expect for paying a price. You only need to compare it to a product of same age which we can easily obtain. 

Our magistrate friend used the following analagy.  You pay £1000 for a skoda, it breaks down and you have to pay for repairs.  You buy a porsche, then you do not expect it to break down at say £40k.  However, whats the point in buying the porsche when we have now been told there is no fuel available to it!.  Because we stated this after the purchase, this represents a latent defect which we have tried to resolve with the dealer, but to no avail.  We have further issues and another thread running re DTV issues.  We will be taking them to court over this aswell as it does not perform similar to a £50 set top box.  I was told last week by our dealer that we now have to wait for B&O to respond and he can not force them to respond quickly.  THis is not satisfactory as they take forever so we shall pursue the dealer instead.

I find all this very frustrating. Rob

 

As I said before, I think your expectations may be too high. B&O have a smaller research and development team than, say, Pioneer or Sony. You can't expect their TV be to be 'flawless' just because it's expensive. You also can't expect B&O to be able to offer you un-compresses superior TV, if you choose analogue as your input. Even some Freeview signals can be poor - up in the Yorkshire Dales, their Freeview signal is unwatchable.

Because your expectations are sky high, you're seeing every flaw. You're expecting B&O to deliver something that's not completely in their control. If you had the MKIII and Sky HD I guarantee you their would be no lag issues at all.

Bear in mind that your analogy can be applied to many scenarios. I can buy a watch for £300 with a standard Unitas movement from Argos. I can walk in to my top-end jeweller and walk out with a Unitas-based Panerai (ie. with the same movement) for £3000.

However, they still show the same time, are based on the same 'engine' (movement). What am I paying £3000 for? Brand, better quality case and strap. You could apply the same theory to B&O. Just because you spend £7000 on the TV, doesn't mean that it can display a TV programme 'flawlessly'.

As I said, get Sky HD (or Sky) and get your dealer to upgrade to the BV7-40 MKIII. Forget the magistrates court, trying to take B&O to court etc - that will end in tears.

Hi Rob,

It is a very frustrating process, I know, as I was faced with a smiliar position with an Apple reseller in Bath. I spent much of my time talking to trading standards trying to fight for a full refund for some Apple equipment I had bought that was not 'fit for purpose.' It wasn't difficult to prove it wasn't fit for purpose because the computer rarely switched on to begin with. On other machines the CDs got stuck in the drive and the thin wireless keyboards were useless and couldn't respond to my typing quick enough. I was only offered replacement parts, which I did not agree to. In the end I did get all my money back with the help of Trading Standards but it was very frustrating. Its not something I would want to go through again as it leaves a sour taste between the customer and the shop staff, which is not pleasant and which neither party wants.

Therefore, I do agree on this point; that you should try to resolve this as amicably as possible, albeit extremely difficult at times for all sorts of reasons. From what you have described to date, your dealer does sound as if they are trying to do the best they can to help you, and that includes communicating with Head Office on your behalf. I am sure much of it at this stage is out of their hands so its going to be a long process anyway. In the meantime you could familiarise yourself with the various statutes of law around sales, typically The Sales of Goods Act 1979. In brief, under this Act traders must sell goods that are as described and of satisfactory quality. If you, as the consumer, discover that products do not meet these requirements then you can reject them and ask for your money back, providing you do so quickly. Alternatively, you can request a repair or replacement or claim compensation, the latter of which should really be your last option. You'll have to agree with the shop what your definition of 'quickly' which can be anywhere from 7-28 days depending on the retailer. If you are outside of these times then you would not have much of a case to argue with in Court, no matter how angry or frsutrated you might be as the law is the law and the Court will consider only the facts that support it. This is why its far better to sort it out as politely as possible with your dealer. Get him on your side, don't alienate them to the point that they won't want to help anymore.

I don't know if you sent me the DVDs you were going to, if you did then they are yet to arrive but I will watch them and report back as soon as they do. I really can understand your frustrations Rob, truly, but you must sit back, take a deep breath and manage this with a clear and focussed mind, not an angry one. It will work out for you. B&O do have (as far as I am aware and as personal experience has shown) a vested interest in looking after their customers. They don't abandon them as many other retailers might do.

Anyway, keep positive and keep us updated as usual. Try to report some more positive news in your next post.

All the best.

Simon.

Simon, when something doesn't work, then it isn't 'fit for purpose'. Rob's scenario is completely different. He's had replacement B&O TVs, he says the lag issue applies to other TVs in the showroom and so on.

He's also had his B&O TV for two years.

It couldn't be any more different from your scenario.

Unfortunately I do not share your compassion. I'll step out of this discussion though and hope Rob manages to discuss a potential upgrade to the BV7-40 MKIII or BV9 or to decides to sell his BV7-40 MKII privately as I don't believe there is a successful alternative. If I was Rob, I'd step down from B&O as his expectations are above what they might be able to deliver.

Fair points Chris.

Rob, earlier you mentioned problems with DVDs but were unwilling to try Blu-ray as you had 400 or so DVDs. If your set is HD ready then would an upscaling Blu-ray player not be worth trying to see if this would help with DVD content.

 

Incidentally what is your claim? Is it for a new BV7 or are you seeking more from the dealer? AFAIK under the sale of goods act you must pursue the dealer, although I am sure to be corrected if I am wrong.

Hi Moxxey

Sorry been away so have not progressed anything recently.  Just so you know I have decided (whether for better or worse) to upgrade from DTV midules in the Beovision 7-32 to Free Sat to try and improve signal.  I have started several other threads to test the field with this to make sure I pick the correct solution as quite a few people seem to think the processor is over compensating due to weak SD signal (correct me if I am wrong here).

Would greatly appreciate your views (also on other issues raised). Rob