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ARCHIVED FORUM -- April 2007 to March 2012
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This is the first Archived Forum which was active between 17th April 2007 and 1st March February 2012

 

Latest post 12-13-2008 11:14 AM by Russ. 179 replies.
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  • 12-10-2008 1:01 PM In reply to

    Re: The B&O problem?

    hi bang and olufsen do not have the problems sony have reducing workforce by 8000 globally and cutting investment by 30 percent.

     As my marketing director used to say you do not have problems  only opportunities, so stop listening to the so called specialists it just sells newspapers. i am 73 and have seen 3 major  recessions and they get sorted.

    No help for the guy who loses his job happened to me, but what does happenis companies generally get efficient and things improve

    .example of media  house prices plummet 20 30 percent, forget to mention prior went up in a lot of cases 100 percent

    the classic one of course computer wise everything would collapse at the year 2000, DID IT LOL

     

  • 12-10-2008 1:39 PM In reply to

    • plagente
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    Re: The B&O problem?

    malcolm welborn:

    hi bang and olufsen do not have the problems sony have reducing workforce by 8000 globally and cutting investment by 30 percent.

     As my marketing director used to say you do not have problems  only opportunities, so stop listening to the so called specialists it just s

    In october B&O announced they have to cut 300 jobs....

    http://p-lagente.blogspot.com/

  • 12-10-2008 1:50 PM In reply to

    Re: The B&O problem?

    The Samsung looks nice, but comparing it to a BV9 is a bit off the mark. The Samsung does not have a rotating stand, or much of any stand at all. It does not have a surround processor anywhere near the capabilities of the BS3 included in the BV9 and whatever speaker it may have I am sure is no match for the BV9s and I do not see much complaining about speaker prices from B and O.  Here in the US a BS 3 is about 35% the price of a BV9. Take that and the price of speakers and a stand off and the price starts being very close to the price of the Samsung. A fairer comparison would be the BV4 50 inch which is also about 35% the price of a BV9 here which would equate to about 3500 GBP.  That puts it only about 50% more than the price of the Samsung. The two clearly have different features that may appeal to different buyers.  I still see no support for the arguement that Beovisions are unrealistically priced in comparison to other brands. They are not 5 times more as claimed, at least not if you compare comparable models.  Somebody posted that Avants were wonderful as they were only twice the price of other TVs. If the numbers are actually looked at, it appears the price difference is even less than double now.

    A Pioneer 50 inch plasma is about $4500 compared to a BV4 50 inch for $7500. Again, the B and O is much less than twice the price.

     

    Beovision 7-55 with Beolab 7-4, 9s and 4000s

    Beovision 10-40 with Beolab 1s and 6000s

    Beosound 1, 5, 2000, and 3000

    Beotime, Beotalk, Beocoms

  • 12-10-2008 2:05 PM In reply to

    Re: The B&O problem?

    plagente:
    malcolm welborn:

    hi bang and olufsen do not have the problems sony have reducing workforce by 8000 globally and cutting investment by 30 percent.

     As my marketing director used to say you do not have problems  only opportunities, so stop listening to the so called specialists it just s

    In october B&O announced they have to cut 300 jobs....

    8.000 ?... 16.000 ????  or maybe LOT more...  who knows sir !!!! Wink

  • 12-10-2008 2:21 PM In reply to

    • Puncher
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    Re: The B&O problem?

    In the UK the BV4-50, with BS3 and various stands brackets etc. is over £12,000 (still without sound). At quick glance on the 'net shows a Pioneer 50" Kuro (9th Gen) shows the cheapest price (in the first 3 hits) to be £2300.

    We can continue to argue about prices and specs. but the details don't matter (ref my ealier post) - people will always try to justify what they want to buy.

    Generally speaking, you aren't learning much if your lips are moving.

  • 12-10-2008 6:06 PM In reply to

    Re: The B&O problem?

    Puncher:

    In the UK the BV4-50, with BS3 and various stands brackets etc. is over £12,000 (still without sound). At quick glance on the 'net shows a Pioneer 50" Kuro (9th Gen) shows the cheapest price (in the first 3 hits) to be £2300.

    We can continue to argue about prices and specs. but the details don't matter (ref my ealier post) - people will always try to justify what they want to buy.

    Again apples and oranges. Compare panels, adding the BS3 changes the entire equation. If one does not want surround sound, does not want quality sound, and does not need a receiver, then get a Pioneer or other cheaper brand. Also you add in stands and brackets.  I assume it requires stands and/or brackets as well. Add in a Pioneer receiver for and the price increases more.

    Either B and O is more expensive in the UK than here, or you get remarkable bargains on Pioneers. As I said, here a Pioneer is $4500 compared to $7500 for the BV4

     

     

    Beovision 7-55 with Beolab 7-4, 9s and 4000s

    Beovision 10-40 with Beolab 1s and 6000s

    Beosound 1, 5, 2000, and 3000

    Beotime, Beotalk, Beocoms

  • 12-10-2008 6:40 PM In reply to

    • Puncher
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    Re: The B&O problem?

    Razlaw:
    Puncher:

    In the UK the BV4-50, with BS3 and various stands brackets etc. is over £12,000 (still without sound). At quick glance on the 'net shows a Pioneer 50" Kuro (9th Gen) shows the cheapest price (in the first 3 hits) to be £2300.

    We can continue to argue about prices and specs. but the details don't matter (ref my ealier post) - people will always try to justify what they want to buy.

    Again apples and oranges. Compare panels, adding the BS3 changes the entire equation. If one does not want surround sound, does not want quality sound, and does not need a receiver, then get a Pioneer or other cheaper brand. Also you add in stands and brackets. Is one of the amazing talents of the Pioneer that it floats? I assume it requires stands and/or brackets as well. Add in a Pioneer receiver and the price increases more.

    You compare the price of a Pioneer Plasma to a BV4 plus stand plus BS3? What is the price for just the BV4 compared to the Kuro? That is the comparison that would be valid.

    Either B and O is more expensive in the UK than here, or you get remarkable bargains on Pioneers. As I said, here a Pioneer is $4500 compared to $7500 for the BV4

    I give in! The prices I've quoted are either here on Beoworld or freely available on the web. The TV I quoted wasn't just a panel, but a full HD TV with DTV tuner, 3 HDMI imputs etc.. I'm not trying to discredit your argument but, I suspect, you haven't fully read my earlier posts.

    I respectfully withdraw from your arguement.

     

    Generally speaking, you aren't learning much if your lips are moving.

  • 12-10-2008 7:43 PM In reply to

    Re: The B&O problem?

    These are very interesting thoughts brought up here...To be honest what makes me such a big b&o fan is the fact that when i buy a stereo from b&o i will have it for a very long time. Just the fact that a company keeps their products selling for so long is something that is very very appealing to me. The design factor also play a very important role to this idea...i have a beosound 1 for over 6 years and it still looks modern. I hat the way the japanese market comes out with a product say a television line- markets it feverishly and than poof! in 1 year it's dated! If i had the money i would buy the 65 inch B&O plasma (in red haha).Now that their televisions are Full HD....And i'm curious...what about all those people that bought the older plasma televisions that were only hd ready? They should get a free panel upgrade...but to sit here and say what is wrong with B&O is besides the point right?
  • 12-11-2008 2:39 AM In reply to

    Re: The B&O problem?

    Beosystem 3 is the key product that makes me prefer B&O as a AV system, and it's unique. The BS3 a smart integration tool for B&O speakers and peripherals, together with lots of 3rd party peripherals like Apple TV and PS3. You still can buy a third party plasma and add a bezel of your choice. 
  • 12-11-2008 6:29 AM In reply to

    • 355f
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    Re: The B&O problem?

    Razlaw:
    Puncher:

    In the UK the BV4-50, with BS3 and various stands brackets etc. is over £12,000 (still without sound). At quick glance on the 'net shows a Pioneer 50" Kuro (9th Gen) shows the cheapest price (in the first 3 hits) to be £2300.

    We can continue to argue about prices and specs. but the details don't matter (ref my ealier post) - people will always try to justify what they want to buy.

    Again apples and oranges. Compare panels, adding the BS3 changes the entire equation. If one does not want surround sound, does not want quality sound, and does not need a receiver, then get a Pioneer or other cheaper brand. Also you add in stands and brackets.  I assume it requires stands and/or brackets as well. Add in a Pioneer receiver for and the price increases more.

    Either B and O is more expensive in the UK than here, or you get remarkable bargains on Pioneers. As I said, here a Pioneer is $4500 compared to $7500 for the BV4

     

     

    Nor apples and oranges in relation to picture quality though!- you rather missed that point!

     

    Actually for my flat in london I just acquired a KURO 50 in,  which included the stand, pioneer ss receiver that does dolby true and hi def sound formats - that the BS3 will not- together with a pioneer blue ray player and full range speakers, programable remote for a total price of  £4600

    I have at home the BV4 50 in , table stand Price just for that NO speakers is £12,750- then factor in 5 additional of the chepaest B&O speakers and a BR player the price is in orbit!

  • 12-11-2008 6:37 AM In reply to

    • Puncher
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    Re: The B&O problem?

    355f:
    Razlaw:
    Puncher:

    In the UK the BV4-50, with BS3 and various stands brackets etc. is over £12,000 (still without sound). At quick glance on the 'net shows a Pioneer 50" Kuro (9th Gen) shows the cheapest price (in the first 3 hits) to be £2300.

    We can continue to argue about prices and specs. but the details don't matter (ref my ealier post) - people will always try to justify what they want to buy.

    Again apples and oranges. Compare panels, adding the BS3 changes the entire equation. If one does not want surround sound, does not want quality sound, and does not need a receiver, then get a Pioneer or other cheaper brand. Also you add in stands and brackets.  I assume it requires stands and/or brackets as well. Add in a Pioneer receiver for and the price increases more.

    Either B and O is more expensive in the UK than here, or you get remarkable bargains on Pioneers. As I said, here a Pioneer is $4500 compared to $7500 for the BV4

     

     

    Nor apples and oranges in relation to picture quality though!- you rather missed that point!

     

    Actually for my flat in london I just acquired a KURO 50 in,  which included the stand, pioneer ss receiver that does dolby true and hi def sound formats - that the BS3 will not- together with a pioneer blue ray player and full range speakers, programable remote for a total price of  £4600

    I have at home the BV4 50 in , table stand Price just for that NO speakers is £12,750- then factor in 5 additional of the chepaest B&O speakers and a BR player the price is in orbit!

    QED - and that's all folk are saying - you pay your money and you make your choice, because there are real alternatives out there. If you are happy that the premium for B&O integration and aluminium is worthwhile then great, everybody chooses their own way.

    This returns us nicely to the original question (albeit rephrased), is the number of folk willing to pay the premium on the decline, how is this affecting B&O and what can they do in the future?

    Generally speaking, you aren't learning much if your lips are moving.

  • 12-11-2008 9:37 AM In reply to

    Re: The B&O problem?

    Personally, given the imploding economy, I find the cost issue moot. We'll have a divergence between those who have silly money to spend, and those who don't. And as Trip said above, B&O's chain of dealerships is probably irrelevant if the company thinks it's going to survive by providing to those with silly money to spend - those customers are never close to the buying decision anyway, as they have A/V installers, interior decorators and home-entertainment-consultants doing it all for them.

    However, if we are to understand the plan from B&O right, it appears that they wish to make a stand in Russia and Asia. This in spite of the fact that their present Russian go-between is very skeptical of a large number of new dealerships being opened there, as he fears it will destroy they brand's cachet (he could also be looking out for his own interests, being the only one presently dealing the brand now).
    But with a number of analysts predicting a recession in Russia, and with the Asian bourses being dodgy, not to speak of manufacturing and import numbers, that might not be the wisest strategy. It becomes a bit like GM trying to find someone foolish enough to buy their underengineered cars, and trusting the Chinese to keep liking GM (because it's got General in it) and Buick (which sells a storm in China.) But for how long?

    It's a curse. With most bespoke items you can count on your buying public not to bother about how up to date the technology is. Buy a pair of Purdey or Fürstenberg shotguns, and you'll be out the cost of three BMW X5 full spec'd cars, for instance. But with audiovisual, you can't sell 19th century technology at premium. Still I can actually see the sense in closing all of B&O's dealerships, and just delivering bespoke, ultimate A/V solutions to the silly money crowd (the ones that think nothing of spending the cost of a BeoVision 9 for a couple of buckets of champagne at the right table, at the right night club.)

    Yet - it would be kind of a let down for the hundreds of thousands of diehard fans of the brand who would then be closed off from the B&O experience. And it kind of does play the dealers for chumps, many hundreds of whom have invested their private ambitions and fortunes into the brand.

    It's difficult.

    My take on it: B&O has to focus on audiovisual excellence. Today's stores, which are fashioned as a cross between a tile emporium and a jewelry store, have to become engaging. Visiting a B&O store is like being the first visitor in a museum on a Sunday. The stores have to become audiovisual experience paradises, where you get thrills no one else can give you, and B&O customers should have access to exclusive audiovisual content, that no one else gets. Delivered in perfectly integrated, high resolution audio and video, with two-way, touch screen remotes. That should do it - I think.

  • 12-11-2008 11:13 AM In reply to

    • ed7
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    • Joined on 12-06-2007
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    Re: The B&O problem?

  • 12-11-2008 1:34 PM In reply to

    Re: The B&O problem?

    355f:
    Razlaw:
    Puncher:

    In the UK the BV4-50, with BS3 and various stands brackets etc. is over £12,000 (still without sound). At quick glance on the 'net shows a Pioneer 50" Kuro (9th Gen) shows the cheapest price (in the first 3 hits) to be £2300.

    We can continue to argue about prices and specs. but the details don't matter (ref my ealier post) - people will always try to justify what they want to buy.

    Again apples and oranges. Compare panels, adding the BS3 changes the entire equation. If one does not want surround sound, does not want quality sound, and does not need a receiver, then get a Pioneer or other cheaper brand. Also you add in stands and brackets.  I assume it requires stands and/or brackets as well. Add in a Pioneer receiver for and the price increases more.

    Either B and O is more expensive in the UK than here, or you get remarkable bargains on Pioneers. As I said, here a Pioneer is $4500 compared to $7500 for the BV4

     

     

    Nor apples and oranges in relation to picture quality though!- you rather missed that point!

     

    Actually for my flat in london I just acquired a KURO 50 in,  which included the stand, pioneer ss receiver that does dolby true and hi def sound formats - that the BS3 will not- together with a pioneer blue ray player and full range speakers, programable remote for a total price of  £4600

    I have at home the BV4 50 in , table stand Price just for that NO speakers is £12,750- then factor in 5 additional of the chepaest B&O speakers and a BR player the price is in orbit!

    Are you seriously contending that your bargain speakers with the Pioneer receiver sound as good as B and O speakers with a BS3?   If so I will have to listen to Pioneer speakers next time I visit my B and O dealer (they also sell Pioneer).  Having seen the B  and O panels in the same store as the Pioneer, I will still choose the B and O picture. 

    Beovision 7-55 with Beolab 7-4, 9s and 4000s

    Beovision 10-40 with Beolab 1s and 6000s

    Beosound 1, 5, 2000, and 3000

    Beotime, Beotalk, Beocoms

  • 12-11-2008 6:05 PM In reply to

    Re: The B&O problem?

    B & O in Jersey likewise sell the Pioneer & Panasonic plasmas alongside the BV4's, and I agree with Razlaw that the BV4 picture is superior. With the BS3 and some Beolabs whats not to like?

     

    Except the price of course :)

  • 12-11-2008 7:44 PM In reply to

    • Puncher
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    Re: The B&O problem?

    Peter2:

    ............................. Except the price of course :)

    But that was the challenge - having been told of (mass market, class leading, award winning) LCD's and Plasma's that met the challenged prices the game changed to whether the Pioneer speakers were a match for B&O - a question that, I'm sure, no one disputed. 355f's post merely indicated that the bundle he bought, which happened to include speakers (and a Blueray Player) together with a receiver system that handled HD audio (that B&O can't at the moment) was significantly cheaper than a BV4/BS3 system without speakers.

    The point (song?) remains the same, you buy what you feel has value for you. Personal preferences are what they are, and I'm sure you won't change yours but neither will those that feel that current B&O TV's are poor value.

     

    Generally speaking, you aren't learning much if your lips are moving.

  • 12-11-2008 7:54 PM In reply to

    Re: The B&O problem?

    Just got a new home theater magazine. In it is an article on the latest and greates Panasonic 65inch plasma. Price $9995.00  Thus a BV4 65 inch is only 35% more.  

    Beovision 7-55 with Beolab 7-4, 9s and 4000s

    Beovision 10-40 with Beolab 1s and 6000s

    Beosound 1, 5, 2000, and 3000

    Beotime, Beotalk, Beocoms

  • 12-11-2008 8:32 PM In reply to

    Re: The B&O problem?

    Why don't we all just agree that B&O is doing everything absolutely perfect, is 100% ahead of every other panel, technologically speaking, and on top of that, they represent the best possible value money can buy!

    ...because it's obvious that one side is attempting to say that each of the two arguments is appropriate for it's specific audience, while on the other hand, the other side is blatantly saying, "you're wrong."

    I, for one hand, think there are shades of grey in the world.  Reducing the world to black and white tends to advance the argument for neither black nor white, so to speak. 

  • 12-12-2008 5:58 AM In reply to

    Re: The B&O problem?

    I think we can agree that everybody in this forum cares about B&O and that critics is meant constructive. This reminds me of the 90ies when Apple was stuck into economical problems and everybody tried to save Apple. Apple had the technologic potential but only could grow again after their visionary Steve Jobs came back. 

     

    I always was an advocate against B&O dispraisers who alleged that B&O makes nice casing for cheap technology. With today's B&O product line, I have some difficulties to bring forward my arguments for many products. B&O has the potential but blew it with products like DVD2, Beo5, Serene, Serenata and the inability to keep up with the fast paced development of digital media.

    B&O should focus on speakers, high quality AV receivers, high quality audio systems and novel technology displays.  

  • 12-12-2008 7:10 AM In reply to

    • Puncher
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    Re: The B&O problem?

    Razlaw:
    Just got a new home theater magazine. In it is an article on the latest and greates Panasonic 65inch plasma. Price $9995.00  Thus a BV4 65 inch is only 35% more.  

    Your apples too seem very orange-like!

    65" Panasonic D10 professional panel (web price) £4500 - £5000, BV4 65" (panel only) £11500.

    We'll see how much the BV4 sells for when it uses the panel you quote.

    I can't see why you refuse to acknowledge that the price differentails people speak of are real. I'm happy that you're happy to pay the extra and you see real value in doing so. Others may agree, some not - it's their choice.

    Generally speaking, you aren't learning much if your lips are moving.

  • 12-12-2008 7:57 AM In reply to

    Re: The B&O problem?

    I think that if we talk about prices, we should compare B&O prices to ...B&O prices!

    What bothers me with the present range is that:

    - 10 years ago you could get an MX 4000 for EUR 1,500, this was the entry price for B&O TVs, now you have to pay at least twice as much for entry level products (BeoCenter 6-23 or BeoVision 8-26)

    - 10 years ago the BeoLab 8000 was costing EUR 2,800 , now it is priced at EUR 4,000, which was the price of BeoLab Pentas if you remember..

    - 10 years ago the BeoSound Ouverture (BeoCenter + BeoLab 2500) was sold at EUR 3,000, now the entry level BeoSound (BS4+BL4) is costing exactly the same price. The BeoSound 3200 alone costs the same price as the complete BeoSystem from the 90's...

     I've chosen 1 TV, 1 pair of BeoLabs and 1 audio system to show that all prices have increased, but neither quality nor performance.

    As far as I can remember, in France the B&O prices for the same product/reference never increased each year in the 90's, why does it have to be any different in the 2000's??

    Reunion Island is greeting you!

  • 12-12-2008 8:07 AM In reply to

    Re: The B&O problem?

    Chrisreunion:

    I think that if we talk about prices, we should compare B&O prices to ...B&O prices!

    - 10 years ago the BeoLab 8000 was costing EUR 2,800 , now it is priced at EUR 4,000, which was the price of BeoLab Pentas if you remember..

    Taking inflation of circa 3% for 10 years into account, that puts it at €3,763.  I'm not totally trying to justify the price rises, but nothing ever stays the same.

  • 12-12-2008 8:10 AM In reply to

    • Christian
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    Re: The B&O problem?

    Chrisreunion:

    I think that if we talk about prices, we should compare B&O prices to ...B&O prices!

    What bothers me with the present range is that:

    - 10 years ago you could get an MX 4000 for EUR 1,500, this was the entry price for B&O TVs, now you have to pay at least twice as much for entry level products (BeoCenter 6-23 or BeoVision 8-26)

    - 10 years ago the BeoLab 8000 was costing EUR 2,800 , now it is priced at EUR 4,000, which was the price of BeoLab Pentas if you remember..

    - 10 years ago the BeoSound Ouverture (BeoCenter + BeoLab 2500) was sold at EUR 3,000, now the entry level BeoSound (BS4+BL4) is costing exactly the same price. The BeoSound 3200 alone costs the same price as the complete BeoSystem from the 90's...

     I've chosen 1 TV, 1 pair of BeoLabs and 1 audio system to show that all prices have increased, but neither quality nor performance.

    As far as I can remember, in France the B&O prices for the same product/reference never increased each year in the 90's, why does it have to be any different in the 2000's??

    I disagree. To compare prices from 10 years ago with today's prices you will have to multiply by 1,5 due to inflation only. Therefore the BL8000 cost the same today in real terms as they did 10 years ago.

    And saying that switching from 21" MX4000 to 26" BV8 isn't an improvement is wrong IMO. The BV8 has a much better speaker system,  and a bigger and better picture. The same goes with the BS3200 vs. the Ouverture, the hard drive might not be that useful but it is an added option. Today's price of an Ouverture in 1998 is 1875£ compared to 2100£ for a BS3200, which is almost the same.

    Living room: BV7-40 mkIV + V8000, BL5, BL3, BM1 and BS9000. Bedroom: MX3000 and BL4500 on MCL2-AV. Around: PentaIII, CX100 and MCX35 on ML/MCL + MCL2-A, BeoPort and BL4 on ML, BS3300 + M75 as stand alone, BC6000 + BC600 and BT1100, LC1, LC2, Beo4, Beo5 and BL1000, BS2 and A8, EarSet2, Apron, Coffee mugs, Enamel Bagdes, Bath towel, Keyring, Books, Lots of miniature and the Bottle opener. Office: BC2300 + BL2500 and BS3. Summer house: BS Century.

    Addicted? Oh no.... ;)

  • 12-12-2008 8:13 AM In reply to

    Re: The B&O problem?

    Chrisreunion:

    - 10 years ago the BeoLab 8000 was costing EUR 2,800 , now it is priced at EUR 4,000, which was the price of BeoLab Pentas if you remember..

    (...)

    As far as I can remember, in France the B&O prices for the same product/reference never increased each year in the 90's, why does it have to be any different in the 2000's??

    In 1998-2008, Euro area inflation has been mostly 2-3%, peaking at 4% this summer. In that timeframe, this would add up to about 28%, meaning that the inflation corrected price raise for that Beolab 8000 example would be about 400 euros or 14%, which sounds a lot less alarming. If the prices didn't get raised in France in the 90s, there has been all the more reason for them to raise later.

    (yes, I know Denmark is not a Euro country, but this should not affect the calculation too much.)

    -mika

  • 12-12-2008 8:13 AM In reply to

    Re: The B&O problem?

    Puncher:

    Razlaw:
    Just got a new home theater magazine. In it is an article on the latest and greates Panasonic 65inch plasma. Price $9995.00  Thus a BV4 65 inch is only 35% more.  

    Your apples too seem very orange-like!

    65" Panasonic D10 professional panel (web price) £4500 - £5000, BV4 65" (panel only) £11500.

    We'll see how much the BV4 sells for when it uses the panel you quote.

    I can't see why you refuse to acknowledge that the price differentails people speak of are real. I'm happy that you're happy to pay the extra and you see real value in doing so. Others may agree, some not - it's their choice.

    I refuse to acknowledge the price differentials as they do not exist. Even your price is just under 1/2 the price of B and O. Many claim the multiple is 5 times. Further it has been posted prices of B and O should be double, as in the days of the Avant. Again, even your figures show it is only about double now.

    Panasonic TH-65VX100U  65 inch panel is $9995. BV4 65 inch is $13500, only a 35% premium.

    Beovision 7-55 with Beolab 7-4, 9s and 4000s

    Beovision 10-40 with Beolab 1s and 6000s

    Beosound 1, 5, 2000, and 3000

    Beotime, Beotalk, Beocoms

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