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ARCHIVED FORUM -- April 2007 to March 2012
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This is the first Archived Forum which was active between 17th April 2007 and 1st March February 2012

 

Latest post 12-13-2008 11:14 AM by Russ. 179 replies.
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  • 12-10-2008 3:19 AM In reply to

    Re: The B&O problem?

    TripEnglish:

    Sony is invested in "joint ventures" with Samsung and, more recently, Sharp. Actually the sales associates in Sony store have a very clever answer when pressed about who manufactures their panels. They say, "anyone can manufacture, we innovate." Actually thought it was quite clever the first time I heard it. (Then I glanced over at one of their TVs and vomited just a little tiny bit).

    Razlaw, you have my sympathies. Who would have thought that we would be fighting this battle on our home turf so often!

    I will continue to demand an explanation as to why a single dollar spent nearly anywhere in AV but Bang & Olufsen isn't a dollar wasted. If I'm happy with my 720p BeoVision 4 and take pity on last year's Pioneer, what is it that I'm not getting? It's like walking past Anderson & Sheppard and into H&M because you get more fabric for your dollar! It's ludicrous.

    I'll pass on many of my Bang & Olufsen systems to my children while Sonys continue to pile up in land fills. I just don't understand how someone can sit there (perhaps with a sweaty spec sheet clutched in their hand) and look at that plastic mess with its lights and stickers and think "I'm in love!" Not to mention the fact that I would prefer to support the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd generations of craftsmen and designers who lovingly build my televisions to absurdly high standards, using precious metals and glass, than the robotic sweatshops where engineers are feverishly working on making it cheaper instead of better.

    And hand on my heart I have never seen a single screen on the market look as faithful to the source material as a BeoVision. Not one. Ever. You have to put at least 3 or 4 years between the BeoVision and the current model for them to even catch up and then you're still left with the hideous looks, complex operation, a stack of hidden boxes, and **** poor build quality. 

    I wish that we could just permanently agree to disagree on this nonsense! It's like have a debate about a car and refusing to discuss anything but the engine. In that analogy, people who are defending Sony, Pioneer, Samsung, etc. would be satisfied pulling the world's best engine down the road tied to a rope behind them! If you were to rip the screen out of a BeoVision and discard the video processors, PUC, home automation control, 2x 7.2 surround sound processor, sound and picture link capability, high grade materials, and the like then we could start to compare apples and apples, but why go to the trouble when you could simply ignore these?   

    I've long ago realized that there are people who will never "get it," the way I puzzle at a $1,400 fishing rod. If you can genuinely prefer a Sony Bravia or Samsung whatever to one of our television then your sensory instruments and mine are tuned very differently. These other products are thoughtlessly designed, carelessly built wastes of money. Each one of them. And what's worse is that they appeal to people's poorer instincts to think in the short term and trust mass opinion over their own preferences. Just as there have been burst bubbles in housing and finance, I expect that one day all these brand-x stack-o-box acolytes will wake up and realize that they've been taken for a ride. Demanding nothing more from your products than a digit less on the price tag leaves you with the sort of crap you're defending.  

     

    at the present rate of technological progress everyone is forced to think short term ; look at how plasma has become so affordable , yet the bv4 stays at such an inflated price. the panasonic panel they use is a tenth of the price without the bno badge

     

    , i don't think price would be a factor if bno kept apace of current developments like having a dual tuner recorder in a £15k tv or having built in freeview rather than an ugly tacked on box in all their tv's

    you're a salesman and naturally defensive of your product as basically it's paying your wages , but don't think that the reason a lot of us aren't buying bno is because we can't afford it , it's because bno don't offer anything compelling in the face of easily available and vastly more compatible alternatives

    bno do make superb cabinets , their build quality is leagues ahead of sony i agree , but what's the point of having a beautifully made box if the contents are not only non upgradeable but technologically inferior ? nobody wants a £10k box in the corner that looks nice but you can't interface it wiith anything else in the house

    another problem i see with bno is the fact they want to tie you in to a bno system , which would be great , except they don't actually make very good system products. where's the hdd recorder ? where's the 2 way remote ? where's the hq wireless inter connection ?? where's the hi def playback ??? where's the true next gen itunes competitor they pontificate about ????

     if bno want to be taken seriously they need to dramatically improve their underlying technology and that doesn't include bringing out a range of white speaker cloths ( no wonder nobody takes bno seriously in the big bad av world )

    popgear is grate™

  • 12-10-2008 6:26 AM In reply to

    Re: The B&O problem?

    Thx Flappo ! A completely agree with you. I consoder myself as a constant B&O customer who still is willing to pay twice or more for their products. But it's not about the price. Recent B&O products not only don't attract new customers, but p*** off their loyal followers. It will break B&O's neck if they don't manage to get out of their creative low. 

    Bad reputation not only alienates customers it also hurts resellers like TripEnglish dramatically. That's why B&O resellers should stand up against B&O's ignorance and dullness.  

  • 12-10-2008 6:54 AM In reply to

    • plagente
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    Re: The B&O problem?

    Ok Trip, B&O products look good, they are well made and exclusive, this is why we buy them, I think we all agree with you. And like you, I'll we be happy to give some of my B&O toys to my son.

    But PLEASE respect my brain,  don't try to explain that they are far superior, it's just not true anymore since flat tv and digital music. 

    Last time, when I went to my B&O dealer, he tried to explain me that the BM5/BS5 was the BEST system for  digital music. When I asked him what about Raid 1 to secure my digital library, what about on line purchase, what about video-clips, there was no solution provided by the BEST system.....

    You can say the more beautiful, the more exclusive, the best integrated with you B&O setup, but not the BEST one.

     Sorry Trip,  but the only way for B&O salesmen is to argue on  quality, exclusivity, design,  B&O integration, and native connection with beolab speakers.

     

     

     

     

     

    http://p-lagente.blogspot.com/

  • 12-10-2008 7:01 AM In reply to

    Re: The B&O problem?

    plagente:

    Last time, when I went to my B&O dealer, he tried to explain me that the BM5/BS5 was the BEST system for  digital music. When I asked him what about Raid 1 to secure my digital library, what about on line purchase, what about video-clips, there was no solution provided by the BEST system.....

    BM5 does support video. You just can't view it on the BS5 screen. They can't demo it at the moment.

  • 12-10-2008 7:08 AM In reply to

    • Puncher
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    Re: The B&O problem?

    PhilLondon:
    plagente:

    Last time, when I went to my B&O dealer, he tried to explain me that the BM5/BS5 was the BEST system for  digital music. When I asked him what about Raid 1 to secure my digital library, what about on line purchase, what about video-clips, there was no solution provided by the BEST system.....

    BM5 does support video. You just can't view it on the BS5 screen. They can't demo it at the moment.

    Sso surely thats "will support video" as they can't yet demo it. There are certainly some brave folk pre-ordering things that they haven't seen or heard for real!

    Generally speaking, you aren't learning much if your lips are moving.

  • 12-10-2008 7:15 AM In reply to

    Re: The B&O problem?

    plagente:

    Sso surely thats "will support video" as they can't yet demo it. There are certainly some brave folk pre-ordering things that they haven't seen or heard for real!

    It is simply because it comes preloaded with music only and that dealer were not given the software to transfer aditional files. also most dealers have not connected it to a Beovision.

    The BM5 is like a BM1, it does video, web, photo.

    It is in the specs and in the manual.

    p.

  • 12-10-2008 7:37 AM In reply to

    Re: The B&O problem?

    Flappo The Grate:

     

    at the present rate of technological progress everyone is forced to think short term ; look at how plasma has become so affordable , yet the bv4 stays at such an inflated price. the panasonic panel they use is a tenth of the price without the bno badge

     

    , i don't think price would be a factor if bno kept apace of current developments like having a dual tuner recorder in a £15k tv or having built in freeview rather than an ugly tacked on box in all their tv's

    you're a salesman and naturally defensive of your product as basically it's paying your wages , but don't think that the reason a lot of us aren't buying bno is because we can't afford it , it's because bno don't offer anything compelling in the face of easily available and vastly more compatible alternatives

    bno do make superb cabinets , their build quality is leagues ahead of sony i agree , but what's the point of having a beautifully made box if the contents are not only non upgradeable but technologically inferior ? nobody wants a £10k box in the corner that looks nice but you can't interface it wiith anything else in the house

    another problem i see with bno is the fact they want to tie you in to a bno system , which would be great , except they don't actually make very good system products. where's the hdd recorder ? where's the 2 way remote ? where's the hq wireless inter connection ?? where's the hi def playback ??? where's the true next gen itunes competitor they pontificate about ????

     if bno want to be taken seriously they need to dramatically improve their underlying technology and that doesn't include bringing out a range of white speaker cloths ( no wonder nobody takes bno seriously in the big bad av world )

    I agree with you on most of the points you have mentionned on your post.

    In my case I would like to think that every bucks spent on a new B&O product is WORTH the expense. That includes quality of the material, design, functionnality, integration, integrated technology. I love the brand but not enough to pass through the price/quality ratio.

    How can I expect to buy a B&O TV that costs more than five times one from the competiton, knowing the fact that its technologically is inferior ?

    I hope B&O will do better in the future.

    Cheers,

    Guy

     

     

    --= "Everything gets done with Patience" =-- --= "Less is More" - Mies Van der Rohe"

    --= BV10 46", BL8K, BL4K, BL2, BS Ouverture, BC6000 (Mk3), BT1100, Beo4 , A8 and ...the Atomic Floyd "Airjax+Mic" earphones =--

  • 12-10-2008 7:38 AM In reply to

    • plagente
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    Re: The B&O problem?

    PhilLondon:
    plagente:

    Last time, when I went to my B&O dealer, he tried to explain me that the BM5/BS5 was the BEST system for  digital music. When I asked him what about Raid 1 to secure my digital library, what about on line purchase, what about video-clips, there was no solution provided by the BEST system.....

    BM5 does support video. You just can't view it on the BS5 screen. They can't demo it at the moment.

    yes Phil, I know this is possible with the BM5, but I want to see it.

    Talk with the guys that bought the BeoMedia 1 with a 5 years insurance of automatic software updates for many new functionnalities................ 

    http://p-lagente.blogspot.com/

  • 12-10-2008 7:45 AM In reply to

    • Puncher
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    Re: The B&O problem?

    plagente:
    PhilLondon:
    plagente:

    Last time, when I went to my B&O dealer, he tried to explain me that the BM5/BS5 was the BEST system for  digital music. When I asked him what about Raid 1 to secure my digital library, what about on line purchase, what about video-clips, there was no solution provided by the BEST system.....

    BM5 does support video. You just can't view it on the BS5 screen. They can't demo it at the moment.

    yes Phil, I know this is possible with the BM5, but I want to see it.

    Talk with the guys that bought the BeoMedia 1 with a 5 years insurance of automatic software updates for many new functionnalities................ 

    As a replacement Media Centre - what can it do with HD video - can it distribute it to any TV in the house or just to the TV to which it is directly connected etc. etc.

    I would want to know/see before ordering.

    Generally speaking, you aren't learning much if your lips are moving.

  • 12-10-2008 7:57 AM In reply to

    Re: The B&O problem?

    plagente:

    Talk with the guys that bought the BeoMedia 1 with a 5 years insurance of automatic software updates for many new functionnalities................ 

    Of course if I need to do video, I would want to see it working before buying. The difference is that for the BM1, it was only a verbal promise by the dealer, while here, the specs and manual are official and written black on white.

    When I buy something I never trust any dealer. Whatever the brand is. If someone is telling me there is a feature, I want to see it working or I want to see it mentionned in an official document.

  • 12-10-2008 8:08 AM In reply to

    Re: The B&O problem?

    Puncher:
    As a replacement Media Centre - what can it do with HD video - can it distribute it to any TV in the house or just to the TV to which it is directly connected etc. etc.

    I would want to know/see before ordering.

    It is not known (by me) whether it does output HD video, as only the supported codecs/formats have been officially published. However, looking at the specs of the PC the the BM5 is, I see no reason why it could not support HD.

    The current Beolink system does not support HD distribution to link room, but the new B&O CEO has officially mentionned in one of Lee's interview that they are moving to distribution over Ethernet.

    The BM5 has an ethernet card, so I am hoping that by a software upgrade, it could stream video in HD resolution in that way. But this is only me speculating. Whether they will give you this upgrade or not remains a question. See plagente remarks about the BM1 users above.

    It is a shame that they do not give us an official roadmap, as now everybody is dissapointed. Those who think the feature will not be available are dissapointed. And those who beleive it will come risk to be dissapointed if it never does.

  • 12-10-2008 8:22 AM In reply to

    • Puncher
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    Re: The B&O problem?

    PhilLondon:
    Puncher:
    As a replacement Media Centre - what can it do with HD video - can it distribute it to any TV in the house or just to the TV to which it is directly connected etc. etc.

    I would want to know/see before ordering.

    It is not known (by me) whether it does output HD video, as only the supported codecs/formats have been officially published. However, looking at the specs of the PC the the BM5 is, I see no reason why it could not support HD.

    The current Beolink system does not support HD distribution to link room, but the new B&O CEO has officially mentionned in one of Lee's interview that they are moving to distribution over Ethernet.

    The BM5 has an ethernet card, so I am hoping that by a software upgrade, it could stream video in HD resolution in that way. But this is only me speculating. Whether they will give you this upgrade or not remains a question. See plagente remarks about the BM1 users above.

    It is a shame that they do not give us an official roadmap, as now everybody is dissapointed. Those who think the feature will not be available are dissapointed. And those who beleive it will come risk to be dissapointed if it never does.

    I agree entirelySmile

    My point was that we know none of this at the moment and so to order now is a giant leap of faith. Even as a stand alone audio system I would like to see the MOTS system work with music that wasn't factory installed - call me untrusting if you like.

    Generally speaking, you aren't learning much if your lips are moving.

  • 12-10-2008 8:27 AM In reply to

    Re: The B&O problem?

    GuyHui :
    Flappo The Grate:

     

    at the present rate of technological progress everyone is forced to think short term ; look at how plasma has become so affordable , yet the bv4 stays at such an inflated price. the panasonic panel they use is a tenth of the price without the bno badge

     

    , i don't think price would be a factor if bno kept apace of current developments like having a dual tuner recorder in a £15k tv or having built in freeview rather than an ugly tacked on box in all their tv's

    you're a salesman and naturally defensive of your product as basically it's paying your wages , but don't think that the reason a lot of us aren't buying bno is because we can't afford it , it's because bno don't offer anything compelling in the face of easily available and vastly more compatible alternatives

    bno do make superb cabinets , their build quality is leagues ahead of sony i agree , but what's the point of having a beautifully made box if the contents are not only non upgradeable but technologically inferior ? nobody wants a £10k box in the corner that looks nice but you can't interface it wiith anything else in the house

    another problem i see with bno is the fact they want to tie you in to a bno system , which would be great , except they don't actually make very good system products. where's the hdd recorder ? where's the 2 way remote ? where's the hq wireless inter connection ?? where's the hi def playback ??? where's the true next gen itunes competitor they pontificate about ????

     if bno want to be taken seriously they need to dramatically improve their underlying technology and that doesn't include bringing out a range of white speaker cloths ( no wonder nobody takes bno seriously in the big bad av world )

    I agree with you on most of the points you have mentionned on your post.

    In my case I would like to think that every bucks spent on a new B&O product is WORTH the expense. That includes quality of the material, design, functionnality, integration, integrated technology. I love the brand but not enough to pass through the price/quality ratio.

    How can I expect to buy a B&O TV that costs more than five times one from the competiton, knowing the fact that its technologically is inferior ?

    I hope B&O will do better in the future.

    Cheers,

    Guy

     

     

    I keep reading about these technological marvels that Sony et al produce. I keep reading about how the Beovision cost 5 or more times the price of the wonders from Sony et al.  I have already referenced in this thread the fact that the top of the line Sony 40 inch LCD costs just under 50% of the price of a BV7, and of course has no reciever/surround processor included. The Sony also only has one HDMI compared to the BV7s 4. I have also referenced the Sony 70 inch LCD that costs $6500 MORE than the 65 inch Beovison 4.

    Could somebody please identify for me one of these bargain wonders?  What 50 inch LCD/Plasma would you reccomend as opposed to the BV4 that costs 1/5 of the price of the BV4, or $1500.  What 65 inch plasma is reccomended at 1/5 the price of the BV4, or about $2500?

    What 40 inch LCD and surround processor do you reccomend for 1/5 the BV7s price, or about $2300.

    Thanks! 

    Beovision 7-55 with Beolab 7-4, 9s and 4000s

    Beovision 10-40 with Beolab 1s and 6000s

    Beosound 1, 5, 2000, and 3000

    Beotime, Beotalk, Beocoms

  • 12-10-2008 9:10 AM In reply to

    • Puncher
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    Re: The B&O problem?

    Razlaw:

    ..................................What 40 inch LCD and surround processor do you reccomend for 1/5 the BV7s price, or about $2300.

    Thanks! 

    I think there's little chance of resolving these discussions, the fact is you can get really decent performing stuff for these sorts of prices. (I've never seen these in the flesh, and the receiver is ugly but I've looked at the Sony UK site just to get an idea. The 40" LCD  KDL40W4500U (winner of "What HiFi's" TV of the year award 2008) retails on site at £1169 incl. free delivery and installation (£845 on the 'net) and a receiver STR-DA3300ES can be got for less than £500. It would seem they can both handle the latest HD audio/video formats. For £2289 you can get the 40" EX1B which has the wireless HD transfer between panel and receiver).

    The real point is "perceived" value. Some perceive the values of the B&O offerings very highly and are prepared to overlook any shortcomings they may have (some may even deny their existence). Others do not and will opt for a more feature driven solution. Both are right, given their individual selection criteria.

    B&O will continue to struggle in the technological race, Sony and the others cannot match B&O's design skills. B&O's prices will help dictate how many of any particular product they sell, if they are happy with their current sales volumes and profits then they will stay as they are.

    Decide what it is that you want/need and then buy appropriatelySmile

    Generally speaking, you aren't learning much if your lips are moving.

  • 12-10-2008 9:11 AM In reply to

    • Kokomo
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    Re: The B&O problem?

    Firstly, let me be clear, I am NOT recommending this Samsung set, I refer to it only as an example of a very latest model in the UK market:-

    http://www.samsung.com/uk/consumer/detail/features.do?group=television&type=television&subtype=tftlcd&model_cd=LE55A956D1MXXU 

    The 46" & 50" models retail for about 1500 & 2300 GBP respectively.

    The Beovision 9, around 10000 GBP.

    The B&O is beautifully built and looks absolutely gorgeous, but for that price so it should! 

      

  • 12-10-2008 9:13 AM In reply to

    • ed7
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    Re: The B&O problem?

    maybe b&o needing a new/fresh blood  design team the current ones over stayed their welcome?!
  • 12-10-2008 9:28 AM In reply to

    Re: The B&O problem?

    ed7:
    maybe b&o needing a new/fresh blood  design team the current ones over stayed their welcome?!

    B&O is totally aware of all the critisism that was raised in this thread (see the new CEO's interview by Lee). The new direction he is taking is the right one, but will take time to be implemented. The BS5 has been designed by a different team, that probably means something. No more rebranded Kikinoki, Digital masterlink is in the pipeline, Single platform for all the products (implying no more products like BV8 & DVD2 missing common B&O features...).

    I am confident the product portfollio is going to improve greatly in a year or 2. Gonna have to be patient.

  • 12-10-2008 10:19 AM In reply to

    • plagente
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    Re: The B&O problem?

    Puncher:

    B&O's prices will help dictate how many of any particular product they sell, if they are happy with their current sales volumes and profits then they will stay as they are.

    Decide what it is that you want/need and then buy appropriatelySmile

     

    YOU'RE RIGHT Puncher. 

     

    One thing important never discussed here, is that B&O shareolders have lost confidence in the company, this is a very important point, because it has a huge impact on the company's strategy.

    B&O currently trades @ 17 Euros now instead of 100 Euros  2 years ago (83% down ...)  and has a 190 Millions cap which is small but represents the current very low expectations on the Company

    This is to say that in my opinion, the new management will have to work under a high financial pressure in order to show higher Net Income and Margins and improve company's good will value (brand recognition,  etc...)

    So, my guess is that B&O will go more and more on the high end part of the market where customers don't buy product's features but design, exclusivity, brand. And, sad to say, this is the only move for B&O.

    In a digital world, B&O cannot innovate more than Apple, Sony or Panasonic. The  future products won't be innovation driven (but at least they should integrate standard validated technologies such as HDMI or Blue Ray....). 

    For TVs and A/V systems, the only thing B&O can sell is superior quality, design and brand.

     

    That's why I'm fealing less and less a B&O fan.

     

     

     

    http://p-lagente.blogspot.com/

  • 12-10-2008 10:34 AM In reply to

    Re: The B&O problem?

    Plagente,  Thanks for the latest financial information about B&O.  I was trying to find that information.  You and Puncher are of course correct in your observations about B&O and their current product line.  However I would caution that B&O has been in this situation before and over time their product line and finances improved.  Hang in there and don't give up on B&O just yet!

    Beosound 5 BL9 BC2 BL8000 Beovision 7 BL6002  BL11 

     

  • 12-10-2008 11:24 AM In reply to

    • ed7
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    Re: The B&O problem?

    linder:
    Plagente,  Thanks for the latest financial information about B&O.  I was trying to find that information.  You and Puncher are of course correct in your observations about B&O and their current product line.  However I would caution that B&O has been in this situation before and over time their product line and finances improved.  Hang in there and don't give up on B&O just yet!

    IMHO i think this time very different global recession /depression the clock is ticking for b&o the way we know it!!!!

  • 12-10-2008 11:37 AM In reply to

    Re: The B&O problem?

    plagente:

    One thing important never discussed here, is that B&O shareolders have lost confidence in the company, this is a very important point, because it has a huge impact on the company's strategy.

    B&O currently trades @ 17 Euros now instead of 100 Euros  2 years ago (83% down ...)  and has a 190 Millions cap which is small but represents the current very low expectations on the Company

    Well, Apple has dropped -50% in the last year. Nokia is -57%.They both must be going under...

    -mika

  • 12-10-2008 11:45 AM In reply to

    Re: The B&O problem?

    tournedos:
    Well, Apple has dropped -50% in the last year. Nokia is -57%.They both must be going under...

    I agree that in this diffictult times, the share price is not a good indication of the health of a company. However, B&O are losing some money. Apple and Nokia are still earning.

    I came accross this Blog this morning: http://www.cta.dk/?p=1177

  • 12-10-2008 11:48 AM In reply to

    • plagente
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    Re: The B&O problem?

    Just look at their PER, and market cap ratios, you will see that B&O is well well well more killed by the investors. 190 Millions market cap for 600 M of  revenue......

    It just shows the level of expectation for future net income and revenue of this company........ 

    http://p-lagente.blogspot.com/

  • 12-10-2008 11:53 AM In reply to

    • plagente
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    Re: The B&O problem?

    Phil, Dont' focus on stock price, focus on ratios................

    Thank you for the link, I copy/paste the text of this blog :

     

    --------- 

    "Catastrophically Bad B&O News

    The causes of the crisis in Bang & Olufsen can, among other things, a lack of touch with consumer needs and wants, inadequate board skills and no analysis and understanding of the problems. They are now confronted with a multi-crisis because private consumption is likely diving very strongly dee coming years, while the outlook would create uncertainty and nervousness in the organization. 

    According to sources, the November sales was catastrophically bad and December is expected to be the group’s worst so far. 

     

    http://p-lagente.blogspot.com/

  • 12-10-2008 12:24 PM In reply to

    • 355f
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    • Bronze Member

    Re: The B&O problem?

    They make the panels
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