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ARCHIVED FORUM -- April 2007 to March 2012
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This is the first Archived Forum which was active between 17th April 2007 and 1st March February 2012

 

Latest post 12-13-2008 11:14 AM by Russ. 179 replies.
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  • 12-08-2008 4:45 PM In reply to

    Re: The B&O problem?

    I'm convinced the answer is for B&O to begin thinking outside of the simplistic A/V Consumer Electronics categories.

    Consider the implications of what's in this film - re-recordings of famous pianists' interpretations, but on modern pianos, with modern recording techniques. I'd buy that from B&O, as well as other exclusive content which was only available from them ... Anyone can make a TV.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKHCy3f_6Og

  • 12-08-2008 5:06 PM In reply to

    • Affineur
    • Top 500 Contributor
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    Re: The B&O problem?

    I expect that Trip is correct; my experience is that the wealthy are not deterred by market swings for personal purchases and most such purchases are well thought out and researched. No incentive is needed, rather just the right product(s) and customer service. The customer service at a typical Apple store involves a high decibel interaction with a twentysomething in a T-shirt (upon which is whatever slogan Jobs likes at the moment) with a point-of-sale handheld who knows less than you do. This should not be compared to a B&O experience.

    A crowded B&O store would be quite a sight.... and not something conducive to evaluating and purchasing such products. In fact I have never actually bought a B&O product while at a store; as Trip knows well, many will contact the local store and have a representative visit the residence and/or meet with the architect and design a system with personal consultation in the actual environment that the equipment will reside. Aside from such extensive installations, in my case, I do the research, call in the order, have the items shipped/delivered and, if need be, have them installed by a B&O technician. Perhaps I am not typical but I interact with the products in my leisure time, often on off hours during business trips in the US and Europe and therefore not necessarily at the store in my region. Numerous colleagues do the same as our "home" time is limited.

    I must say that asking for a discount or an incentive has never crossed my mind. However, there has always been a complimentary gift or discount on the final bill that is never discussed. Such gestures are a part of the formality of the transaction and lead to nothing but good will. I think that the "sales" and incentives that B&O and various B&O stores advertise are after the new customer who is not a typical "core" type but who may develop into one. As such I should expect that B&O do not live and die by the Black Friday or any other sale in part or whole; they survive based on the purchases of the core customer population.

    And yes, the fate of B&O does not depend critacally on TVs, it is the whole package that counts and, based on my research, no other manufacturer offers the complete integrated package as well as B&O. The price is partly tied up in the exclusivity and that is very important to the core B&O client.

    Seek simplicity and distrust it. Alfred North Whitehead
  • 12-08-2008 5:54 PM In reply to

    Re: The B&O problem?

    I have seen a crowded B&O store but not lately.  I was not comparing the so called Apple experience with the B&O experience but to point out that not every company is reporting losses and Apple and its stores are doing well despite the recession.  I used the Apple analogy because Apple is often compared to B&O in this forum.

    I too have received the complimentary gift such as the book, posters, and the like.  I do look at and test the products in the store.  They are then delivered to my residence.  However that does not diminish the fact that B&O has a failing strategy and I am somewhat concerned they may not make it.  There are many high end AV companies that will perform the services you described with better equipment and for less.  I have recently considered a Mark Levinson AV system which is not exactly cheap.

    These are many different points of view on this subject but I should point out that B&O customers in Europe often ask for and receive discounts. Ask our friends on this forum.   As for the Apple corporation and Mr. Jobs, they have $21 billion USD in the bank as they would say.  The recession for them is an opportunity to develop new products for future sale when times are better. Steve Jobs himself is worth $6 billion USD and would find this discussion amusing.

    Beosound 5 BL9 BC2 BL8000 Beovision 7 BL6002  BL11 

     

  • 12-08-2008 5:56 PM In reply to

    Re: The B&O problem?

    steve jobs is a living legend

    popgear is grate™

  • 12-08-2008 7:05 PM In reply to

    Re: The B&O problem?

    TripEnglish:

    Thank you, Razlaw. I was about to make that point.  

     

    You are most welcome.

    Beovision 7-55 with Beolab 7-4, 9s and 4000s

    Beovision 10-40 with Beolab 1s and 6000s

    Beosound 1, 5, 2000, and 3000

    Beotime, Beotalk, Beocoms

  • 12-08-2008 7:18 PM In reply to

    Re: The B&O problem?

    linder:

    On Black Friday (the big shopping day after the Thanksgiving holiday on November 28th), I had to wait almost an hour at the Apple store due to the crowds to buy an iPod touch getting what resulted in a $35 discount.  Later after lunch, I went to the local B&O store which was empty.

    Everybody can draw their own conclusions about the current situation but I want an incentive to spend my money.  For B&O, it means they need a new marketing strategy and especially discounts.  Even the wealthy want a break in the price.  That how they got to be wealthy.  Isn't it?

     

    Fact is people love sales, and handled properly the consumer can be enticed to spend more money than they originally intended. B&O should have a go at limited sales promotion, nothing sharpens the mind more than a sales promotion that is strictly time limited. If not strictly enforced the public quickly become aware that the deal is always available and the promotional effect is lost. Of course the problem at the moment is that everything on the high street is on sale.

  • 12-08-2008 7:27 PM In reply to

    • ed7
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    Re: The B&O problem?

    i have the money but do not see anything exciting apart from B&O speakers which i do not need in the moment,yes sale will have a limited effect but i thing b&o have more serious problems ( lack of wow factor products) IMHO
  • 12-08-2008 8:13 PM In reply to

    Re: The B&O problem?

    Flappo The Grate:

    unfortunately you can't compare the top of the range sony with a bno as the top of the range sony has more advanced features like led rgb backlighting and built in wi fi

    the x series top of the range new 46" is c £3k in the uk , that's about the same as a bv8

    nuff said 

    The top of the line Sony 40 inch LCD, also the newest, that is not yet available only has one HDMI?  At least that is what the Sony web page says in the specifications.  $4000 and only one HDMI?  No thank you, I prefer the four HDMI on our BV7.

    Beovision 7-55 with Beolab 7-4, 9s and 4000s

    Beovision 10-40 with Beolab 1s and 6000s

    Beosound 1, 5, 2000, and 3000

    Beotime, Beotalk, Beocoms

  • 12-08-2008 8:27 PM In reply to

    Re: The B&O problem?

    Affuneur's experience is the closest I've seen on this board to the way "things really are" at Bang & Olufsen. Well over 90% of our business is done outside the store, whether over dinner or in the client's home. Many stores could probably shut their doors to the general public and increase business. I'm not saying this to make any value judgement on the "retail shoppers", it's simply my experience over the past 8 years. 

    There is scarcely anything in this world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey. - John Ruskin

  • 12-08-2008 8:44 PM In reply to

    • Affineur
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    Re: The B&O problem?

    Not certain what Jobs has to do with this discussion of B&O, nor the relevance of how much cash Apple has on hand. The current Apple business model in the audio/video arena is not comparable to B&O. They sell good design to the masses. I enjoy Apple products and have owned them since the Macintosh intro in 1984. In addition to numerous Powerbooks, I have an Apple TV and like it very much. Apple have very nice designs, very mainstream.

    Yes there are other options for audio/video as there always has been and always will be. To each their own, but I do think that B&O have an understanding of their core customers and they try to satisfy that niche. I suggest that they are succeeding but only time will tell.

    Seek simplicity and distrust it. Alfred North Whitehead
  • 12-09-2008 2:32 AM In reply to

    Re: The B&O problem?

    Razlaw:
    Flappo The Grate:

    unfortunately you can't compare the top of the range sony with a bno as the top of the range sony has more advanced features like led rgb backlighting and built in wi fi

    the x series top of the range new 46" is c £3k in the uk , that's about the same as a bv8

    nuff said 

    The top of the line Sony 40 inch LCD, also the newest, that is not yet available only has one HDMI?  At least that is what the Sony web page says in the specifications.  $4000 and only one HDMI?  No thank you, I prefer the four HDMI on our BV7.

     

    the x series start at 46 inch in the uk , here is the spec http://www.sony.co.uk/product/t46-x-series/kdl-46x4500#pageType=TechnicalSpecs

     4 hdmi's  , 2 rgb's , 2 components etc etc

    not bad for £3,600 , you could get a bv8 for that , with err.. 1 hdmi !!!

    popgear is grate™

  • 12-09-2008 3:15 AM In reply to

    • Puncher
    • Top 10 Contributor
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    • Joined on 03-27-2007
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    Re: The B&O problem?

    I understand both sides of the debate and some parts of both have merit (to me at least). I've said before that I love the speakers and agree that some are class leaders. Some of the audio source offerings are now starting to look at little stale and, for me, the BS5/BM5 doesn't go far enough to guarantee the companies reputation in this area. I think the video offerings are, in the main, the biggest cause for concern for many reasons already mention here and in other threads.

    As you can see, I lean toward the concerned, I'm not sure if I find the unswaying certainty from some reassuring or another reason to worry.

    As for doing without retail outlets, well that certainly seems to be the plan at the moment in EuropeUnsure

    Generally speaking, you aren't learning much if your lips are moving.

  • 12-09-2008 8:34 AM In reply to

    Re: The B&O problem?

    .

    Beovision 7-55 with Beolab 7-4, 9s and 4000s

    Beovision 10-40 with Beolab 1s and 6000s

    Beosound 1, 5, 2000, and 3000

    Beotime, Beotalk, Beocoms

  • 12-09-2008 8:35 AM In reply to

    Re: The B&O problem?

    Flappo The Grate:
    Razlaw:
    Flappo The Grate:

    unfortunately you can't compare the top of the range sony with a bno as the top of the range sony has more advanced features like led rgb backlighting and built in wi fi

    the x series top of the range new 46" is c £3k in the uk , that's about the same as a bv8

    nuff said 

    The top of the line Sony 40 inch LCD, also the newest, that is not yet available only has one HDMI?  At least that is what the Sony web page says in the specifications.  $4000 and only one HDMI?  No thank you, I prefer the four HDMI on our BV7.

     

    the x series start at 46 inch in the uk , here is the spec http://www.sony.co.uk/product/t46-x-series/kdl-46x4500#pageType=TechnicalSpecs

     4 hdmi's  , 2 rgb's , 2 components etc etc

    not bad for £3,600 , you could get a bv8 for that , with err.. 1 hdmi !!!

    Why are you comparing a 46 inch Sony to a 40 inch BV7 or a 32 in BV8? That is rather like comparing apples and oranges. Of course if price and size are the primary concerns you will get more inches for the dollar with Sony, of course with other brands you would get even more inches for the dollar than with the Sony. Obviously different TVs have different features. Within 6 months, or more likely 6 days there will be another latest and greatest offering from Sony or another mass market manufacture with a new gizmo making todays 46 inch "marvel"  outdated. Picture and sound quality are the issues, not specifications. That is why I base my car purchases on test drives, not just reading specifications.  Here in the USA the 46 inch "marvel" is listed at $5,000 while the BV8 is listed at $4,000 so again you are not comparing two comparable items.

    Also, Sony now has a 70 inch LCD for $20,000. A 65 inch BV4 is $13,500.  I can buy  the BV4 and have almost enough left for a BS3. With that I get quality surround sound as well as the Automatic Color Management. Of course I would have to give up all of the Sony's latest specifications and marketing hype.

    Let's get past the fiction that B and O is unreasonably priced compared to other comparable alleged high end products.

    Performance is the bottom line and is for each viewer/listener to decide on their own which product they prefer, not just looking at specifications on paper, specifications that may or may not be well executed and well implemented. I am sure some would prefer the Sony picture, some may prefer Samsung over Sony, some may prefer Krell for sound over B and O. It is a matter of taste.

    I look forward to viewing the Sony "marvel" next time I visit my B and O dealer so I can compare the picture quality side by side. It is one of the great benefits of my dealer that they carry all of the other brands(currently approximately 185 LCD and plasmas including the $70,000 103 inch Panasonic plasma) giving one the opportunity to compare the mass market brands to B and O while in one store.

    As for the BV8 having only one HDMI, that is much more excusable than the fact that Sony's top of the line 40 inch LCD also has only one HDMI.  In other words a bottom of the line B and O product has the same quantity of HDMI as a top of the line Sony.

    Beovision 7-55 with Beolab 7-4, 9s and 4000s

    Beovision 10-40 with Beolab 1s and 6000s

    Beosound 1, 5, 2000, and 3000

    Beotime, Beotalk, Beocoms

  • 12-09-2008 9:04 AM In reply to

    • saf
    • Top 150 Contributor
    • Joined on 04-17-2007
    • Posts 458
    • Founder

    Re: The B&O problem?

    Sony will close five or six factories and cut 16,000 jobs worldwide in an effort to remain profitable through a slump in consumer spending on electronics...
    "The Bravia-brand TV maker said it will “adjust” pricing to cope with the stronger yen, two weeks after saying it didn’t have plans for “massive cuts” in prices in the U.S. The yen has surged 21 percent against the dollar and 38 percent versus the euro this year, hurting Sony’s overseas earnings."
    More 
  • 12-09-2008 11:04 AM In reply to

    Re: The B&O problem?

    i looked all over the sony site and i couldn't find a tv with one hdmi , or no built in dvb-t

    if you could put a link i'd appreciate it 

    popgear is grate™

  • 12-09-2008 11:20 AM In reply to

    Re: The B&O problem?

    Flappo The Grate:

    i looked all over the sony site and i couldn't find a tv with one hdmi , or no built in dvb-t

    if you could put a link i'd appreciate it 

    KLV-40ZX1M | 40" BRAVIA® LCD Flat Panel Monitor | Sony | SonyStyle USA

    Beovision 7-55 with Beolab 7-4, 9s and 4000s

    Beovision 10-40 with Beolab 1s and 6000s

    Beosound 1, 5, 2000, and 3000

    Beotime, Beotalk, Beocoms

  • 12-09-2008 12:01 PM In reply to

    Re: The B&O problem?

    I have a Beosystem 3 / BV4 50" setup at home. Besides the versatile Beosystem 3, I don't see why my next display should be from B&O. I understand that B&O has no plasma or LCD development and that companies like Sony don't want to sell their newest LCD or OLED displays to B&O. In this fast paced times it's hard for B&O to keep up with the TV market. I don't see that prosperous customers could save B&O, because even rich people also don't want to be hornswoggled. Don't get me wrong about my sense for quality but Loewe is the one company that could keep up with the TV market despite selling high price TV sets. I don't like the design and quality of Loewe but in terms of expandability and connectivity they are doing better than B&O. The low price B&O TV BV8 unfortunately can't compete with others in terms of picture quality.

     

  • 12-09-2008 12:13 PM In reply to

    • Christian
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    Re: The B&O problem?

    I think both the BV4-50 and BV4-65 are to expensive, but on the other hand you get the ACM technology, that ensures a longer lifetime of a B&O screen than a non B&O. I addition you get the anti reflex screen.

    I agree that these two addition cannot really justify the price, but again they only comes with B&O...

    Living room: BV7-40 mkIV + V8000, BL5, BL3, BM1 and BS9000. Bedroom: MX3000 and BL4500 on MCL2-AV. Around: PentaIII, CX100 and MCX35 on ML/MCL + MCL2-A, BeoPort and BL4 on ML, BS3300 + M75 as stand alone, BC6000 + BC600 and BT1100, LC1, LC2, Beo4, Beo5 and BL1000, BS2 and A8, EarSet2, Apron, Coffee mugs, Enamel Bagdes, Bath towel, Keyring, Books, Lots of miniature and the Bottle opener. Office: BC2300 + BL2500 and BS3. Summer house: BS Century.

    Addicted? Oh no.... ;)

  • 12-09-2008 2:50 PM In reply to

    Re: The B&O problem?

    You're right. Some feature like longevity, integration and design only comes with B&O which made me choosing the BV4. Other products don't: 

    The Beosound 5 seems to be a lost opportunity. Design and materials seem unique, but I was expecting more technical innovation. The Beomedia box seems to be the key element if B&O could improve the multimedia capabilities. There still is some big potential. 

  • 12-09-2008 3:14 PM In reply to

    Re: The B&O problem?

    Razlaw:
    Flappo The Grate:

    i looked all over the sony site and i couldn't find a tv with one hdmi , or no built in dvb-t

    if you could put a link i'd appreciate it 

    KLV-40ZX1M | 40" BRAVIA® LCD Flat Panel Monitor | Sony | SonyStyle USA

     

    thx

    that IS pretty silly , i agree

    one hdmi !!??

    weird , i guess they want you to plug it into an av amp and do all the switching with that !? 

    popgear is grate™

  • 12-09-2008 5:20 PM In reply to

    • Alex
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    Re: The B&O problem?

    erg4000:

    I have a Beosystem 3 / BV4 50" setup at home. Besides the versatile Beosystem 3, I don't see why my next display should be from B&O. I understand that B&O has no plasma or LCD development and that companies like Sony don't want to sell their newest LCD or OLED displays to B&O.

    Sony don't make their own LCD displays - they use Samsung's.

    It's not hugely worth discussing who makes the actual display elements themselves. Yes, they do have an impact on the sound, but just like speakers and speaker drivers, there aren't a huge number of companies who produce them. The displays B&O uses are very very good indeed, and yes there are other TVs on the market which use the same design panel. Nonetheless, the BeoVisions (the 7-40 mk3 being a perfect example) outperform them by quite a large margin.

    As for whether or not your next plasma display should be a B&O or not, have a look at Automatic Colour Management on the BeoVision 4 and 9.

     Weekly top artists:                   

  • 12-09-2008 5:58 PM In reply to

    • 355f
    • Top 100 Contributor
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    Re: The B&O problem?

    Alex:
    erg4000:

    I have a Beosystem 3 / BV4 50" setup at home. Besides the versatile Beosystem 3, I don't see why my next display should be from B&O. I understand that B&O has no plasma or LCD development and that companies like Sony don't want to sell their newest LCD or OLED displays to B&O.

    Sony don't make their own LCD displays - they use Samsung's.

    It's not hugely worth discussing who makes the actual display elements themselves. Yes, they do have an impact on the sound, but just like speakers and speaker drivers, there aren't a huge number of companies who produce them. The displays B&O uses are very very good indeed, and yes there are other TVs on the market which use the same design panel. Nonetheless, the BeoVisions (the 7-40 mk3 being a perfect example) outperform them by quite a large margin.

    As for whether or not your next plasma display should be a B&O or not, have a look at Automatic Colour Management on the BeoVision 4 and 9.

     

    Sony do in fact make thir own LCD displays, firstly in a factory in Hungary, secondly, in the far east.

  • 12-09-2008 7:52 PM In reply to

    • Affineur
    • Top 500 Contributor
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    Re: The B&O problem?

    Sony and Samsung have had a continuing agreement for many years:

    http://www.twice.com/article/CA330413.html

    including the recent 8th GEN:

    http://www.twice.com/article/CA6555350.html

    Most view this joint venture as Sony being a captive customer of Samsung who also provides capital in return for first dibbs on the latest developong technologies. Perhaps the factories you are refering to assemble TVs but do not actually make LCD display panels.

    Seek simplicity and distrust it. Alfred North Whitehead
  • 12-09-2008 8:23 PM In reply to

    Re: The B&O problem?

    Sony is invested in "joint ventures" with Samsung and, more recently, Sharp. Actually the sales associates in Sony store have a very clever answer when pressed about who manufactures their panels. They say, "anyone can manufacture, we innovate." Actually thought it was quite clever the first time I heard it. (Then I glanced over at one of their TVs and vomited just a little tiny bit).

    Razlaw, you have my sympathies. Who would have thought that we would be fighting this battle on our home turf so often!

    I will continue to demand an explanation as to why a single dollar spent nearly anywhere in AV but Bang & Olufsen isn't a dollar wasted. If I'm happy with my 720p BeoVision 4 and take pity on last year's Pioneer, what is it that I'm not getting? It's like walking past Anderson & Sheppard and into H&M because you get more fabric for your dollar! It's ludicrous.

    I'll pass on many of my Bang & Olufsen systems to my children while Sonys continue to pile up in land fills. I just don't understand how someone can sit there (perhaps with a sweaty spec sheet clutched in their hand) and look at that plastic mess with its lights and stickers and think "I'm in love!" Not to mention the fact that I would prefer to support the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd generations of craftsmen and designers who lovingly build my televisions to absurdly high standards, using precious metals and glass, than the robotic sweatshops where engineers are feverishly working on making it cheaper instead of better.

    And hand on my heart I have never seen a single screen on the market look as faithful to the source material as a BeoVision. Not one. Ever. You have to put at least 3 or 4 years between the BeoVision and the current model for them to even catch up and then you're still left with the hideous looks, complex operation, a stack of hidden boxes, and **** poor build quality. 

    I wish that we could just permanently agree to disagree on this nonsense! It's like have a debate about a car and refusing to discuss anything but the engine. In that analogy, people who are defending Sony, Pioneer, Samsung, etc. would be satisfied pulling the world's best engine down the road tied to a rope behind them! If you were to rip the screen out of a BeoVision and discard the video processors, PUC, home automation control, 2x 7.2 surround sound processor, sound and picture link capability, high grade materials, and the like then we could start to compare apples and apples, but why go to the trouble when you could simply ignore these?   

    I've long ago realized that there are people who will never "get it," the way I puzzle at a $1,400 fishing rod. If you can genuinely prefer a Sony Bravia or Samsung whatever to one of our television then your sensory instruments and mine are tuned very differently. These other products are thoughtlessly designed, carelessly built wastes of money. Each one of them. And what's worse is that they appeal to people's poorer instincts to think in the short term and trust mass opinion over their own preferences. Just as there have been burst bubbles in housing and finance, I expect that one day all these brand-x stack-o-box acolytes will wake up and realize that they've been taken for a ride. Demanding nothing more from your products than a digit less on the price tag leaves you with the sort of crap you're defending.  

    There is scarcely anything in this world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey. - John Ruskin

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