10%,
It's great that you like the BS5/BM5. However, anyone perusing this thread looking for potential alternatives might come away with incorrect assumptions after reading your post. In the interests of giving more details on pricing and features for each of those, I wanted to expand on your statements. Also, I have some thoughts about the other comments you had as well. I'm not trying to be argumentative here, just making sure that people who may want to comparison shop have more information:
Mr10Percent:
This is the way I have read it....
Sooloos $13,000 and you don't get a remote!
I assume you mean a wireless remote as the above system price does include the 17" wired (ethernet) touchpanel. However, a Sooloos system can be had for as little as $3500 plus the cost of a HDD (a few hundred $ max) - the new ensemble piece includes a single HDD bay and four zones of audio output in one box. You can control that via a web interface (free), a PC application (free), Crestron/AMX via their bridge hardware piece (not sure of pricing), their 17" touchpanel ($4400) or their new wireless 12" remote coming in February (estimated ~$2500). If a user wants to, they could just buy an iPod Touch ($229 - $399 based on capacity) and use the web interface Sooloos has optimized on that device (
http://www.sooloos.com/www/downloads/Sooloos-iPod-iPhone-Setup-Guide.pdf) for no additional cost. That route gives you a handheld remote control for a system with multi-zone output for less than $4500. The Sooloos system is modular, so you can mix and match the source, storage and control elements as you like.
Mr10Percent:
Olive $ 2,000 Probably the cheapest of the lot (excl. Apple) but tiny screen
Price is actually $1499 - $1799 for the OPUS No4 server (includes one zone of audio output onboard and HDD size from 320GB to 1TB) and $599 for the optional Melody No2 client for additional zones of playback (connected via ethernet or wifi). The system also offers a web interface for use with the computer of your choice. Or, they have a web version they have optimized for use on devices like the iPhone/iPod Touch and Nokia's web tablet (
http://www.olive.us/products/opus4_connectivity.html).
Mr10Percent:
Qsonix 110 $ 5,500 for a box and touch-screen.
Which sounds very similar to the BS5/BM5 in both basic design and price. In addition though, the Qsonix system also allows for RS232 control, PC app control, and Web interface control including a newly available iPhone optimized interface (
http://www.cepro.com/article/qsonix_adds_iphone_interface_to_control_music_systems/K316). It also has a built-in CD drive, onboard 4-zone audio output, Tapestry playlist creator, MusicGiants store integration for lossless music downloading, etc. The hardware isn't nearly as elegant looking as the BS5, but the UI is easy to use on the 15" touchscreen (17" version also available).
Mr10Percent: Kaledascope $20,000 start and anywhere due north!
It's actually
Kaleidescape. They have 2 different server systems, the cheaper of which starts at about $10,500 for the server and a movie player client (you could go with a 4-zone music client instead of the movie player for the same price). The larger system is more like $22,500 to start. Similar to Sooloos, the system is modular allowing you to buy music player, movie player and server components as you want them. The smaller server has built-in redundancy in its 4 drive bay housing and the larger server has dual redundancy in its 14 bay housing. While not really publicly known, they are working on an even lower cost system that will be released in the future. In my view though, people aren't buying Kaleidescape system for music only. Rather, they're getting it for movies or perhaps music AND movies, but the primary draw is movies. I've seen lots of movie servers and while some companies have caught up a bit, Kaleidescapes' are still the best.
Mr10Percent: Escient $ 6,000 on the box plus touchscreen (add ~$1200)
The FireBall line ranges in price from $2000 - $6000 based on HDD size (160GB - 750GB), how many external DVD changers it can control, number of supported simultaneous video outputs, etc (http://www.escient.com/products/CompareDirect.pdf). They can be controlled via an on-screen display with IR remote, web interface and the touchscreen you mentioned. I haven't seen an iPhone optimized web UI from them. Note that teh Fireball line's ability to control external DVD servers makes them movie capable, albeit in a clunky way (it gives you an interface to browse your DVD library and control playback - cover art, actor credits, plot summary, ratings, etc are downloaded from the web). Their new vision line though directly competes with Kaleidescape and does movies (including DVD ripping), music and photos as well.
Mr10Percent: Request S4.8 $13,000 plus touchscreen (add ~$1200)
The S series is their most expensive line ranging from $13K to $18.5K. But the F series ranges from $3000 to $6500 and the N series is below that from $1500 to $4000. Variations on build quality, number of zones support, HDD size, etc vary through the line. See prices and feature comparison here: http://www.avalonhouston.com/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=XI2L1YeZ580%3D&tabid=354&mid=944. The touchpanels are $1500 and $2500 but again, web interfaces are available with handheld optimized versions as well.
Mr10Percent: Beosound 5 $ 2,700 most expensive interface of the lot
Beomaster 5 $ 2,900 can integrate with TV if you don't go the BS5 way!
No comment here but my questions about them were spelled out in another thread (http://forum.beoworld.org/forums/thread/160661.aspx).
Mr10Percent: Of the cheaper models, (exclude Sooloos, Request and Kaledascope), all use their own touch screens and CD drives to edit metadata - which I think is flawed.
I assume you prefer the Beo solution for importing content across the network instead of direct loading either for ripping, metadata edits or both. For people concerned about this, note that every one of the systems above supports content importing across the network and not just direct CD ripping via the system drive. So, if you have an existing music collection or if you just prefer to rip on your computer and edit metadata there before transferring over to the server, all of the above systems can accommodate that.
Mr10Percent: All these have approx 250Gb to 1Tb storage but seem to average around the 500Gb mark for the price indicated.
No real comment here other than to point out that B&O is the only one that doesn't offer a choice (as of now). Soundproof said in another thread that he was told last year that the BM5 storage could be augmented via NAS, but there's no verification of that yet. I think that would be a smart move, so let's see if it materializes.
Mr10Percent: All apart from the BS5 have a really bad PC type computer interface. (Just add mouse and keyboard and you're back in the office!)
That's certainly subjective. I've used several of them and while some are certainly better than others, I don't think they are bad. The Kaleidescape interface is great and so is the Sooloos one. The Qsonix interface is a little cluttered, but the drag and drop style on the touchscreen is very easy to get the hang of. The Olive interface, although small on the onboard LCD, is very much iPod-like (including a cover flow view) so anyone who uses an iPod can use the Olive. The Escient and Request interfaces have been around for a while and have gotten much better over time. Request now has a drag and drop style for the touchscreen very similar to what Qsonix has. Escient has revamped the FireBall UI to match what the Vision pieces have and is much improved for library navigation. I've played with it in person and it's world's better than what it used to be like.
Mr10Percent: The touchscreens in all these models - and we all have to agree, really suck!
Raising my hand to disagree. Having used the touchscreens on many of these myself, I think they are pretty good. Some are better than others but it's not like the ones at the bottom are unusable or anything. Personally, I'll take a touchscreen over a hard buttoned control because the former can be tweaked and upgraded with much more flexibility via software upgrades over time. I haven't played with the BS5 yet, but it does indeed look slick. That being said, given my experience with the solutions above, I have a hard time believing that the BS5 will be worlds better than these. I will definitely try it once the demo untis hit US stores to see for myself.
Mr10Percent: And none have really addressed wireless battery operated touchscreen.
Sonos and Logitech's Duet both have these, but those are both streamers of course. Of the systems discussed here, they offer 2-way remote functionality via 3rd party control systems (AMX/Crestron) or web interfaces optimized for handheld devices. With the advent of the iPhone and iPod Touch, every system like this has a very good option for wireless control. My personal preference is a dedicated app over a web interface (to eliminate page refresh delays) and when you play with Apple's own Remote app or Sonos' Controller app, you see just how well these can be done. In fact, Sonos likely has cannibalized quite a few of their dedicated hardware remote sales with the release of the free Controller app for the iPhone and iPod Touch specifically because of how well it works. I know Kaleidescape is working on one of their own and I wouldn't be surprised to see others here create an app even though they already have web optimized interfaces.
Mr10Percent: I don't think technology is yet good enough for B&O to do this well. i.e. through glass and not leave fingerprints everywhere. Therefore the BS5 really does standout in terms of engineering quality, practicality and simplicity.
Most of the touchscreens I have seen use a matte display which is much less of a fingerprint magnet than glossy displays. Still though, none have the same "showpiece" design aesthetic that B&O puts so much emphasis on. Personally though, when I look at the 10.4" screen on the BS5, I would prefer that it be touchscreen. A dedicated display like that just begs for that kind of interaction capability, IMO. That is purely subjective though and will certainly vary by user.
Mr10Percent: All have issues over video - or at least ripping DVD's and copyright infringement (and something from licensing history B&O will definitely stay well away from) so video is not a real issue right now with any of the models unless you download.
I'm not 100% sure of what you're saying, but I think the gist is that none of these can legally do DVD ripping and therefore make movie watching a much less viable option, especially for B&O. In that case, I would point to Kaleidescape's legal victory over the DVDCCA (DVD Copy Control Association) that actually paved the way for other manufacturers to offer legal DVD ripping solutions (Escient's Vision line is one definite example). The decision is being appealed, but most agree that the DVDCCA will not get the reversal they seek.
Without wading too deeply into the legalese, Kaleidescape successfully argued that the CSS (Content Scramble Systme) license they got from the DVDCCA did not specifically prohibit the offloading of content from the disc to a hard drive. They aren't "cracking" or breaking the protection, they are using their approved license to access the content on the disc and then transfer it to the server. The DVDCCA contends that this violates the "spirit" of the license agreement but any lawyer will tell you that contract disputes almost always come down to what specific wording is or is not included. In Kaleidescape's implementation of the license, they transfer over all the data form disc to server, including the copy protection. Beyond that, the system is a closed loop so you can't offload the ripped discs from the system to a computer or your iPod, etc. Escient's Vision implementation is very, very similar.
ReQuest also has a similar product called the IMC. They stray a bit from the above by sidestepping the CSS route. Instead, they copy the disc in its entirety without using CSS to access the disc's content. I haven't looked into this deeply, but I'm not sure if their technology violates the DMCA or not. CSS's whole intention is to prevent access to the content on the disc. Notice I said access and not copying. Many people think that the DMCA
makes circumventing copy protection illegal when in fact it only makes
circumventing access prevention technologies illegal. They sound similar, but are legally very different. Anyway, they claim their technology can make bit for bit copies of the disc without having to deal with CSS at all. In fact, they say that their archiving technology (they specifically do not call it ripping and state that they think ripping is illegal) is not a CSS licensed product, though their playback system is. Again, I haven't looked into the tech, so I don't know if it truly is legal or not.
As for video download content, none of these integrate with such services - yet. I would not be surprised to see integration of movie servers with services like Amazon's Unbox, Netflix, Vudu, etc. I think Kaleidescape will wind up going this route to support HD content as Blu-Ray is a very different animal than DVD when it comes to ripping and the legal issues surrounding it. By the way, Sooloos already demonstrated a movie client at CEDIA and will show more of it at CES in January. They will supposedly support Blu-Ray, but I don't think for ripping (just direct disc playback).
Mr10Percent: In conclusion, the cost of these products would seem initially exponential to the cost of the components. Then, the larger systems become more expensive probably because they do have bigger screens, bigger storage etc...
Like everything else, more features means more cost and better build quality pushes the cost further up the price ladder. Request's line is a good representation of that. Their S series is impressive when you look at the parts used, but you certainly do pay for it. Of course, the mark-up in any system on things like HDD size is very high when compared to the price difference of the parts themselves (I'm used to reading DIYers in other forums constantly make cost comparisons between their rigs and pre-built systems like these). Of course though, getting a single solution from one company with one source for support issues and a lot of effort put into the overall integration and implementation is going to cost you.
Mr10Percent: There would appear to be no one killer product. The BS5 is on the right end of the price/build quality scale and hopefully can have bigger hard drives (which appear to be 3.5" and not 2.5" as originally indicated). However it is limited in not being able to store/play vast DVD libraries. Perhaps that is for the Beomaster 5 AV once the lawyers have their cut?
10%
The part about no killer product I certainly agree with as different elements will be more or less important to different users. Having a choice is always good though. I hope B&O will address some of the issues I laid out in the other thread (http://forum.beoworld.org/forums/thread/160661.aspx) and when you look at the design of the products above, you can see where my questioning of missing basic elements came from.
Overall, I think the BS5 is very slick and will certainly appeal to some customers. I just think that if B&O had or does address a few issues, the product will have far greater appeal. Let's hope they do offer solutions.
Jeff