Nicely put Russ. I was going to script something very similar but thought it was going to be too "strong" to publish.

I think the whole concept of the BS5 is simplicity and that the real design issues are how to make it outwardly simpler and simpler. I'm sure a red, white, blue or green  LED simulation of volume, balance, time elapsed etc...either in B&O style or in Star-Trek style could have been done - but that was not their game. B&O's marketing brochure - soon to be released is an 11-pager with no more than 8 short paragraphs (says very little more than Lee's press release) and goes out of its way to basically say "this is what we have done. It's simple to use and sounds better than anything else out there and it is not a portable MP3 player". They have distinguished and differentiated. The customer has freedom to choose what they want; B&O's simplicity and excellent sound or someone else's features, complications and relatively poor sound.

Back to the volume thing, it should be borne in mind that if one were to connect the BS5 to your B&O TV, the TV would take over (as master) all the tonal controls and indicate volume and tone settings on the LED sidebar and/or screen. (except those using Beolab 5's where only volume is controlled) by the master.

 

10%

They could provide an option to turn 'extra track information' on or off in the settings menu (which is really quite empty at the moment). The BeoSound 4 provides this which gives the customer the option to make their own mind up.

On the other hand, there is no harm in displaying adjustments in a large and clear manner, especially if your listening in subdued light (as I like to do when chillin').

 (I'm thinking of my MCP5000 here - the display is large bright and some would say garish while active but shuts off once interaction is finished)

Puncher, I grant your point.  A display which gives feedback while interacting, and then discreetly 'shuts up' is something which B&O have done before.  The BS-9000, the BL-3500, etc, etc. 

 I suppose that I latched onto the implication that the display was boring...which seemed off-point to me as the music is expected to be the focus.

I will ruminate quietly for a bit....
 

Hey 10%,

I'm just wondering if my expression was 'too strong'.  Not that that has often stopped me...you know, open mouth...engage brain...ooopppss.

 

 

Russ, No I don't think it was - just nicely put.

Having more time to think of appropriate words and feelings, there are different camps out their and all are entitled to their opinions here in this forum. I strongly feel that a great deal of effort has gone into this device to make it simple - albeit inherently complex when dealing with a PC platform etc..

I also feel strongly (and again this is solely my own perspective) that too many people are looking for toys, gadgetry and features - something B&O have in the main stayed away from. I think on that front it disappoints many. In fact, I am surprised a graphic equaliser has not yet been asked for.

On other fronts - and I have given this some thought, is how do I mainly interact with my current set-up (BV7-40/BC2/BL5/BL3/Beo5) ? Simple really:- Load, Disc, TV, DVD, CD, Volume, Step-UP/Down, Stop and Standby. I don't show the DVD graphics info overlay when playing DVD's, I don't do random tracks on CD and I don't change the sound mode on the DTS. I could also not give a fig if I am 2 minutes 32 seconds into a 3minute 45 second track or not.

I usually press one or two buttons max. either on the BC2 or on the remote, sit down and watch the monitor or simply close my eyes with a nice G&T and listen. That is it unless I'm changing a disc. Sure - I've programmed the CD name library to the max but is it used? I've played with all the settings in the TV/DVD and BC2 but is it now anything other than factory? No and no.

Some will call it arrogant, lagging, missing the boat etc...but B&O I think have gone out to make something simple rather than comprehensively tweakable and that unfortunately for them value is too often based on all the settings a device has rather than its ultimate output quality.

The real issue for me is not the Beosound 5 but what comes after the Beosound 5 and how it interacts and inter-relates to a future system - especially a future AV system.

 

10%

N.B. Speaking of nicely put, where is Trip these days? I note he has been very quiet recently.

 

Having had the opportunity to review the Beomaster 5 in some detail I have created a web page with internal pictures of the Beomaster 5 HERE

basically its a cheap computer with xp ££3700 for a computer that will break down and not last as long as any other B&o item

computers do not last long tbh, its lovely to look at but really this product is a flop, its very overpriced and so far from reading it lacks everything that people wanted from it.

Sad as i was expecting something brilliant.

 

Great information and pictures.  Does anyone know why there is a pci connector which cannot be used.  Since there is a second SATA connector, is it possible to add another drive?  Where is the sound processor on this machine?  Thanks,

B&O have used a standard unmodified Amitech motherboard used in ultra small PC boxes where the PCI connector can be used.

As the system is running Windows XP and there is a second SATA drive connector, then another disk could be added subject to the B&O application actually accessing it. So, it is certainly useable by Windows.

The sound processor is on the motherboard as is common these days, plus interfacing circuits on the B&O board at the back.

Is the sound processor a specific B&O chip as it was rumoured?

p. 

Keith Saunders:

The sound processor is on the motherboard as is common these days, plus interfacing circuits on the B&O board at the back.

Thanks.  I am very curious about the sound processor.  In many of the Beosound 5 discussions, there were several comments about how good the quality of sound is from the BM5.  I have some knowledge about PCs and was given to believe that there must be a special sound processor card.  It appears the reality is the sound depends more on the speakers attached and probably an external high quality DAC.

Is this correct or am I missing something?  Thanks again for the information.  Your efforts on Beoworld are greatly appreciated. 

The details of the sound processing needs further investigation, there is a sound processor on the motherboard, but if it is used I cannot say.

However the connections to the B&O module from the motherboard do not help us and I will need to have a much closer look at this module in the coming weeks.

Below is a picture of the connections from the motherboard to the rear B&O module showing the connection names.

There has been much said about the BS5/BM5 combination, indeed I have said much However I never doubted the system would have top quality converters, indeed it had been eluded to many times. I can't even begin to imagine the fallout if it turned out they relied on a motherboards onboard audio chip!

I have to say, even I don't think B&O can miss the boat by such a margin. I'll wait with interest until we find out the audio path specifications.

The trick would be to disconnect the S/P-DIF connection and see if you still get sound out of the PowerLink (although the sound may reach the B&O interface in other ways).

It's not unique for this unit - all high-end audio units have quite standard cabling between interior components -- which is why I find it so amusing when hifi-dealers try to sell you super expensive interconnects with dimensions approaching that of my wrist. Kudos to B&O for not falling into the trap of talking its customers into spending fortunes on cabling.

That said - I'm becoming curious as to the DAC inside this unit, and look forward to Keith's further investigations.

Very interesting,keep going Keith!

Ok – I know two-fifths of F/A on this but here goes…..

 

Page 73 of the service manual references Module 51 (B&O’s Area 51 equivalent!!)  “ML-PL Module”

 

There seems to be a DA1852 DAC which I don’t think is standard in any Soundblaster but standard in a lot of good CD transports, a MAS3530 DSP (whatever that is) as well as a controller of types and a volume controller.

 

That module is I suggest where cost is, the rest is in the margin!!

 

 

10%

 

Micronas MAS3530

Analog Devices AD1852

Not sure I'd look for much cost here, at a glance I can't find any cost info for the Micronas part but the A/D is ~$5. Both are established components.

A quick skim through the MAS3530 pages suggest there is no support for  Dolby True Audio or DTS-HD Master Audio although that's irrelevant if it has nothing to do with Blue Ray audio in the future.

RussR:

OK...not to be an anorak, nor to imply that B&O have suddenly become 'purists' as such...but isn't the point of serious music listening to just sit and, without reasonable distraction, listen?  Is it possible that B&O are purposely eschewing a 'Las Vegas/Tokyo by Night' interface so as not to diminish the auditory experience?

Isn't 'essentiality' on of their intended core identifiers?  How much feedback does the vaunted BeoSound 9000 (and I love mine) offer in any of those regards?  Do you need a progress bar creeping along the bottom of the screen when watching a movie on the BR-2?  Or would an audible 'beep' at the chapter markers be more like it?

I see your point Russ, but wasn't one of the drivers from beomedia to beosound 5 to provide rich visual interface plus tactile interface? why would B&O then cut on the GUI to try looking purist again?

Therefore I would agree with the above statement of lack of info...  - since I have to get up to use the beosound 5, I at least want more visual feedback: that's why I interact with the interface. If I quietly sit down to enjoy the audio experience, I don't look at remotes or GUIs anyways... 

Keith Saunders:

The details of the sound processing needs further investigation, there is a sound processor on the motherboard, but if it is used I cannot say.

However the connections to the B&O module from the motherboard do not help us and I will need to have a much closer look at this module in the coming weeks.

Below is a picture of the connections from the motherboard to the rear B&O module showing the connection names.

Have you discoverd more about the sound processing Keith.

Overview of the Beomaster 5 Audio Circuit

The Beomaster 5 has two key components when it comes to most functions and particularly the audio circuit and that is the Amitech PC motherboard and the Masterlink/Powerlink control module hereafter called the ML-PL module.

From a hardware viewpoint the BeoMaster 5 can transfers digitally encoded audio data from The Amitech motherboard to the ML-PL module via either the USB connection or the SPDIF connection.

The SPDIF protocol standard does not specify a given data rate or resolution, so without putting an oscillopscope on the input we can only make an assumption based on the following fact:-

• The SPDIF input to ML-PL module from the Amitech motherboard goes to the DSP chip which provides "loopthrough" for the external SPDIF output socket for use with the Beolab 5. Whilst not tested, the Beolab 5 SPDIF input spec provides for PCM (Pulse Code Modulation) at 32, 44.1, 48, 88.2 kHz, so we can assume that the input is one of these values.

The overall audio control and routing on the ML-PL is performed by a standard Philips 80C51 programable port microprocessor with 64 kB Flash and 1024 bytes of data RAM. This processor controls the following audio features:-

• Masterlink audio signals routed via the "Audio switch matrix" to the Powerlink outputs meaning it can act as a Beolink Passive
• The Digital to Analog conversion performed by the Analog Devices 1852 of the SPDIF input from the Amitech motherboard
  to the masterlink, Powerlink or Line out connectors.
• The routing of USB data from the Amitech motherboard to the DSP chip for output to the masterlink, Powerlink or Line out connectors.

The DSP chip is a standard type MAS3530 audio signal processor and a block diagram of the basic functions of the chip are below

 

There is not much you can really say about this chip which is widely used and provides the following audio decoding features:-

• DTS Digital Theater Systems DTS 5.1 decoder
• Dolby Digital (AC-3) decoder for all Dolby Digital formats from 1.0 to 5.1 channels 
• MPEG-1 Layer-2 
• Dolby Pro Logic ΙΙ Creates 5-channel surround sound from any stereo source 
• PCM stereo audio data

The output of the audio processor is sent to the AD1852 digital to analogue converter and then to the required output.

The AD1852 is a  18, 20 or 24-bit single-chip stereo digital audio converter which provides via the "Audio Selector" the output used to the left and right analog channels for the Masterlink, Powerlink and Line out connector.

From my observations there is nothing particularly special about this audio cicuit which uses off the shelf components to provide the required solution.

From my observations there is nothing particularly special about this audio cicuit which uses off the shelf components to provide the required solution.

Oh

In other words......it's just a fancy display with a premium price!

Why on earth don't they use audiofile components!!!!!

And i was told that the sound chip was a custom built one??

 

Keith Saunders:

From my observations there is nothing particularly special about this audio cicuit which uses off the shelf components to provide the required solution.

Totally agree here.

and then...

Alex:

The BeoSound 5 is high-end! It's not a direct replacement for the BeoMedia; the BeoMaster 5 is, which is part of the BeoSound 5 package. The BeoSound 5 package is much more than just another a mediacenter - it's a BeoSound.

Alex:

I would like to know why it can't be considered high-end audio. B&O have designed the sound chips themselves, as well as the volume controls and output stages - they've taken it all very seriously. With Lossless, it could potentially sound better than a lot of CD players.

Alex:

RE the sound performance - B&O have taken the sonic performance very seriously - think of a product to compliment the BeoLab 5 (hence the '5' moniker). The audio circuitry was designed by B&O - it's not an 'off-the-shelf' sound chip.

Alex:

Either way, the sound chips in the BeoSound 5 are of B&O's own design (not off-the-shelf hardware) and will perform excellently. B&O have taken the sonic performance of the BeoSound 5 very seriously...

Dear Alex, you've repeated this sentence before, exactly 14 times Were your assertions then simply 14 times unfounded?

'cause I thought for a while you were part of the technical project team who developed this BM5 device in Struer.

Disappointed.

koning:

From my observations there is nothing particularly special about this audio cicuit which uses off the shelf components to provide the required solution.

Oh

In other words......it's just a fancy display with a premium price!

Why on earth don't they use audiofile components!!!!!

And i was told that the sound chip was a custom built one??

 

Thank you Keith again for the photos and your good work!

I think that B&O "only" designed the (I call it the) adapter-board that contains the digitalaudioconverter, and converters for powerlink, amplifiers,  Masterlink-connections etc.

I don't think that a "small" company like B&O has the opportunities to design the chip itself. I think they bought an ASIC (Application specific integrated circuit) that matches their specs and wishes for this product.

Hopefully they bought a good one ;-)

When you ever saw the blueprints from e.g. a Intel Pentium Processors in different  design stages you'll know why there are specific chip companies like AMD, Intel, TI, etc. on this planet. It looks like someone painted billions of symbols and lines on a screen in your favorite cinema :-)

Would be nice if B&O or some B&O dealers stop lying(!) to their customers. In times of the internet and great people like Keith that do some research, you get all the information you want - so B&O shouldn't tell "We designed the audio-chipset all by ourself" if they did NOT.

I'm sure 78% loss this year should make them think in Struer ...


As the Beomaster 5 has a simple DVI-connection to the headunit it should be possible to get visual feedbacks in other rooms, too, when you split the DVI-connection and broadcast this DVI-signal through your homenetwork, in-wall-displays etc.
Than you would see while using your beo4 or beo5 what you're doing even in a link room.