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ARCHIVED FORUM -- April 2007 to March 2012
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This is the first Archived Forum which was active between 17th April 2007 and 1st March February 2012

 

Latest post 06-09-2008 2:03 PM by mobeyone. 26 replies.
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  • 06-07-2008 1:41 AM

    • expoman
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    Has Bang & Olufsen lost it's product MOJO?

    There have been many threads posted here regarding many of the existing product's lack of this or that.  All have offered suggestions on what needs to be done to fix things in their opinion.  Product MOJO is an elusive commodity.  Many new B&O products have no MOJO.  The planets need to align just right.    

    I judge this from only one perspective.  When large numbers of people from many different countries and varied backgrounds all have the the same initial and continued reaction to a product.  I want it now!  I want it bad.  This in turn creates the best company MOJO usually referred to as a Cash Cow.  Cash for everyone who touches the product.   From sub suppliers to retailers every one is happy.

    Bang & Olufsen has had quite a few of these.  The Beogram 4000 (1972) followed by the Beomaster 1900/2400 (1976)  were two of the first in the last 36 years.  The Beosystem 5000 with Beolab Penta's (1985). The Beosystem 2500 (1991).  The Beosound 9000 with the Beolab 8000 speakers did it again (1996).   Many times for sure the MOJO was right.

     The question now is when will it happen again.  Surely Apple and others have not stolen all of Bang & Olufsen's MOJO?  

     

      

  • 06-07-2008 3:34 AM In reply to

    • moxxey
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    Re: Has Bang & Olufsen lost it's product MOJO?

    Not really, it's just the market has become a lot cheaper and perceived 'value' is not what it used to be. The modern speakers are superb, I love my BS4 and am happy with the BV7-40 MKIV. There are some bad apple's in the B&O portfolio, but hopefully these issues will be addressed with the new CEO.

    Apple doesn't get everything right either you know. I'm really stuck about what to buy at the moment, Apple wise. The new glossy aluminium iMac's screen isn't good enough for an everyday office environment, but then the Mac Pro and Cinema display are fairly expensive. Big gap between the two products. Sure, the laptops are fantastic, but then Apple laptops have regularly been fantastic.

    B&O is a tiny company by Apple's standards. I'm not sure how people can claim they should compete (ie. always comparing B&O with Apple). It's like comparing Blackpool FC with Liverpool FC and wondering why they just can't compete. However, not that long ago Blackpool FC were a bigger club and playing in the top league.

    Doesn't mean that all their fans have deserted them though and moved over to supporting more successful teams.

  • 06-07-2008 7:51 AM In reply to

    Re: Has Bang & Olufsen lost it's product MOJO?

    Can we please grow up?

    There is scarcely anything in this world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey. - John Ruskin

  • 06-07-2008 8:30 AM In reply to

    • moxxey
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    Re: Has Bang & Olufsen lost it's product MOJO?

    Trip, I think that's a tad unfair. I agree we're sick of these debates, but we're not have a school ground fight here.
  • 06-07-2008 9:02 AM In reply to

    • ®
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    Re: Has Bang & Olufsen lost it's product MOJO?

    Sounds like Trips lost HIS mojo. Storm
  • 06-07-2008 10:51 AM In reply to

    Re: Has Bang & Olufsen lost it's product MOJO?

    I'm not being a grump, but these topics are a mile wide and an inch deep! It's like discussing politics in terms of "are republicans done for?" To think that anything intelligent and consequent can be developed from that line of reasoning is fatuous. Inevitably once threads like this get cooking and go on for page after page, someone laments that Bang & Olufsen should really listen to what people on these boards are saying. Why on earth would they concern themselves with the discontented rants? Do you really think that someone in Struer is going to burst into a meeting and yell, "Dammit! Has anyone seen the forums!? WE NEED TO REGAIN OUR MOJO!!!"

    Please. 

    I'd like, for example, to have a robust discussion on specific topics where particular strengths and weaknesses can be explored by people like us who devote a near silly amount of time on this stuff! iPod integration, for example, is a really hot topic in the shops. Should Bang & Olufsen deliver a docking solution? To what extent should it integrate with a full multi-room system? What is the future of wirelessness? Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

    I, for instance, think that we should develop a docking station, but that it should not be integrated into the link system. The resources needed to keep such a highly integrated device working on the same timescale as other link masters would be out of proportion with the benefits and better devoted to development of other products.

    I also have been disappointed with wireless technology and have not seen a single product that is robust enough to meet the performance demands of our clients. Those satisfied with wireless link are few and far between, and any pathway forward is always just ahead of an increasingly crowded spectrum. I would be happy just to wait until "air traffic control" is better instead of constantly trying to "fly at higher altitudes." (best analogy I could muster!) 

    This is the kind of debate I love to have and most members like RussR, Camshaft, Soundproof, just to name a few, probably have some phenomenal insights which can't properly be fleshed out when the tenor of the dialog is so absurd.

    I'm sick of having to put all of my thoughts, opinions, insider tips, advice, etc. in some counter-rant format!  

     

     

    There is scarcely anything in this world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey. - John Ruskin

  • 06-07-2008 11:25 AM In reply to

    • 9 LEE
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    Re: Has Bang & Olufsen lost it's product MOJO?

    Trip - although i might not have thought your post added to the discussion, i'm not in favour of flaming you.

    Yes, the subject has been gone over and over - but i thought the OP was trying to get a different angle, that's all.  I too am a little bored of discussing wether B&O have lost their focus, let it slip, gone to the dogs etc etc, and to be fair i don't even read them any more. The simple answer is - wait and see.

    A lot of very valid suggestions have been made in the past that B&O could use, and we'll just have to see if they have noticed our ideas. Chances are, they thought of them before us though! LOL

    Trip - you just made some suggestions for questions that could each have their own thread. Why don't you go for it?!!

    Lee

    Smile

    BeoWorld - Everything Bang & Olufsen

  • 06-07-2008 12:51 PM In reply to

    • expoman
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    Re: Has Bang & Olufsen lost it's product MOJO?

    Trip,

     I think you may have missed my point.  But Yes, Brian Laursen the product manager for the Beosound 6 should announce at his next management meeting, We have lost our MOJO, we need it back.  The point I am trying to make is that Bang & Olufsen always has been and always will be a product driven company.  Sucessfull products are never created from a spreadsheet, because they come from taking risks. You can not create a formula in a spreadsheet for that risk.  This is the MOJO that created the products I listed in my original post.    So my point is B&O should look back at what made it sucessful in the past to better succeed in the future.  That's how it can get it's MOJO back.

     

    Apple lost it's MOJO in the early 1990's but they got it back because Steve Jobs brought them back to his original vision for the company.  To create insanely great products!  B&O just needs one.

     

  • 06-07-2008 6:31 PM In reply to

    • Russ
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    Re: Has Bang & Olufsen lost it's product MOJO?

    I think Trip may just be sleep deprived.  Bleating, mewling, and boy are his arms tired!

    First let me remind the group assembeled that mere days ago we were debating B&O' worst product/design.  Surely we recognize that B&O's portfolio sports a few klunkers.  In point of fact the earlier post listing iconic points on the modern timeline illustrates how rare those items really are.  There were 3 or 4, not dozens upon dozens suddenly ending in 2000.  So, are we really left without even the 'hidden gems'?  I think not!

    My beloved Avant/US and it's cousins (including AV-5) marked the end of the CRT era in a spectacular shower of colors and optical illusions. 

    BeoLab 5?  C'mon.  An engineering tour de force screaming to the world that B&O can still do high end products when it chooses.

    BeoLab 3 drops jaws in jut the way that BeoLab 6000 did 10 years ago.

    I can't speak to all of the variants available over there; but the BeoVision 7 40 MK3 sold here is shockingly good, and magical in person.

    I have a fovorite sports analogy for B&O's approach...but since it is based on the rather provincial basebasll it would take too long to explain here.  The short version is that B&O is at its best when it is swinging for the fences.  The down side is that if the miss, the result is embarrassing...but when the get the bat on the ball it is spectacular.

     BeoSound 5?  "Batter up!"

    Russ

    We kid because we love.

     

    Bang & Olufsen Tysons Galleria

    McLean, VA USA

  • 06-07-2008 6:55 PM In reply to

    • mason
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    Re: Has Bang & Olufsen lost it's product MOJO?

    Why the downer on the latest B&O designs?  I am confused at people comparing products of today with those of the 80's/90's. The harsh reality is that the design of any object is ultimately a result of the function. Todays products have been condensed – the technology is more refined – the physicality of the object doesn't rely on 3 or 4 media formats (phono/cd/tape/tuner) and hence the scale and form is different. Take plasma and lcd – essentially every manufacturer except our friends in Denmark produces a frame with a screen in it. B&O are still thinking laterally – the BV7 has stunning use of materials and beautiful detailing particularly with the dvd unit and the array of speaker options make for several interesting design variants. The BV8 is also a beautiful design – so what, its not aluminium – but show me any panel with an integrated speaker with sound quality to match. Again lateral thinking – extrude the speaker beyond the unit and make a virtue of it as a design detail. I think there are going to be many people disapointed with B&O (not me btw) because their designs (with the exception of speakers) will become more pervasive as technology evolves. Products will still be beautifully produced but by virtue of technology we will see less 'statemental' designs. I for one am pretty positive about B&O's direction.Also: does anyone have an idea as to why Jacob Jensen no longer designs for B&O?
  • 06-07-2008 7:00 PM In reply to

    Re: Has Bang & Olufsen lost it's product MOJO?

    TripEnglish:

    Can we please grow up?

    Hey, Trip - why don't you apply that logic to yourself? When you first appeared on here you weren't exactly honest about the fact that you were a B&O dealer and therefore had a vested interest in the topics you were discussing. Then you patronised Austin with your withering remarks about his age and immaturity. Sure, you make some valid technical points regarding new products and do contribute to the general flow of some threads, but why do you have to come across as such a *muppet* sometimes? 

    President, Beomaster 8000 Appreciation Society

  • 06-07-2008 7:08 PM In reply to

    • Alex
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    Re: Has Bang & Olufsen lost it's product MOJO?

    Very few people produce the actual panels themselves actually.

    Sony don't produce their own panels - they use Samsungs.

     Weekly top artists:                   

  • 06-07-2008 7:16 PM In reply to

    Re: Has Bang & Olufsen lost it's product MOJO?

    I think a fully voice activated system might be quite interesting.

    Something that you can set certain commands to certain recorded sound samples of your voice, and something that can recognise its you, only you, and no-one else.

    I think there could be quite significant advantages to this when you imagine N-Music, imagine not having to enter numbers or scroll with your remote, just tell your system to play a certain media instead of having to search for it through folders and files.

    You could even make this link over the phone - no need for a remote control any more too.You could have wireless link between your system and your mobile phone/mp3 player, no need for swapping memory cards, or connecting up to a port to swap your songs.

    I also think B&O really need to look into a fully digital distribution system instead of its own proprietry system. B&O is having some difficulty reinventing itself for the digital age.

     

  • 06-07-2008 11:16 PM In reply to

    • Russ
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    Re: Has Bang & Olufsen lost it's product MOJO?

    Not the thread to begin this discussion, I suppose...see Lee's remark to Trip above...but while the idea of voice activation keeps coming up, I wonder, really, if it is ever really thought out...simple example...spinning through my Motown collection, only to have it all come to a crashing halt when Diana Ross Sings 'Stop!' at the very beginning of 'Stop in the Name of Love'.  And, OK, Casdave has started down the path towards a solution by offering 'voice keying' as the basis for the interface...what happens when I have a cold?  What happens when my room mate wants to do something?  What happens when the phone rings during the exciting battle scene in the beginning of 'Lord of the Rings' and I am shouting 'Mute!' instead of speaking in the calm tones with which I keyed the system?

    As an example from real life...back in the exciting early days of the Cell-Phone business, Sony made an amazing 3-watt transportable phone, with a car kit that included 'voice keyed' operation.  A colleague of mine was driving around one night, with 2 lovely young ladies in the car with him when the phone rang.  He said "Don't answer it, it's probably my b#*&$ wife, and I don't want to talk to her."  The phone heard 'answer' and the wife heard the rest.

     Unintended consequences, my friends....

    At least give the Danes a bit of credit for not giving usthings which might not work out in the long run. 

     

    Russ
     

    We kid because we love.

     

    Bang & Olufsen Tysons Galleria

    McLean, VA USA

  • 06-07-2008 11:33 PM In reply to

    • expoman
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    Re: Has Bang & Olufsen lost it's product MOJO?

    It is rumored that Jacob Jensen stopped designing for B&O in the late 1980's for two reasons.  First B&O refused to allow his name to be promoted as the product designer.   B&O at that time believed the products were created by a team and the it was not considered proper in Danish society to promote the individual over the group.  It is interesting how this changed later for David Lewis as Jacob's protege became the primary designer.  

    Second you have understand that in Denmark product designers are compensated by being paid a royalty on each product the manufacture sells usually paid as a percentage of the price.  Jacob also wanted more money for each product he designed.  

  • 06-08-2008 4:09 AM In reply to

    • Alex
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    Re: Has Bang & Olufsen lost it's product MOJO?

    A voice activated system would be the most horrific, deadly dull thing I could possibly imagine in a HiFi/AV system. As if music didn't have enough event to it already, it could be made even more 'no-need-to-think-about-it' with a voice activated system.

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  • 06-08-2008 12:24 PM In reply to

    Re: Has Bang & Olufsen lost it's product MOJO?

    Agree. I can see myself trying to yell louder then the BL5 at full power "DOWN" "VOLUME DOWN" "PLEASE" ..... I think that Remote Concept that we all saw ....  That is Mojo right there .... even though a bit flashy ..... I like the understatement that BL3 and BC2 have ... its simple clean and by far not cheap looking ...... Same is true for BV4. Its not just the Alu frame but also the glas what makes that package different.

     

    I think this is all a matter of personal taste ...   The only thing that I hold against them is the 1st release of the BC2 .... the Go Go pushing to start a DVD ... something like this should not go to market .....  

    BS9000, BS2300, BC2, BL2500, BL3, Bl2, BS1, BV8, BC4, A8

  • 06-08-2008 1:54 PM In reply to

    Re: Has Bang & Olufsen lost it's product MOJO?

    Now we're cooking!

    The voice activation concept for anyone who was ever a fan of Star Trek, has to be one of the hallmarks of "The Future." But excellent points are raised as to its inability to work in current conditions.

    This is a bit like the wireless conundrum, in that the idea is certainly representative of a potential benefit, but the technology's real-world shortcomings prevent it from expressing its potential.

    There's no question that the concept of the interface is going to be an exciting component to our ability to interface with a diverse offering of technologies. I can't imagine voice not playing some role in the house of the future, but when you think of the tremendous technological hurdles associated with making this concept viable, we can probably imagine you won't see it in Bang & Olufsen first.

    The touchless remote was certainly an interesting concept (especially considering that Touch is the new buzz-word in interface). However, this too presents more of an obstacle than an affordance in terms of use. I wouldn't want to perform an interpretive dance every time I wanted to change channels! Interesting to see where this Gesture type interface could lead us.

    Here's food for thought, though: if we look elsewhere in the wide world of tech, the most exciting interface to my mind has to be Thought. Look at the progress being made with prosthetic limb control and think to how this could generalize to interface in general. If I can think something on & off, up & down, that would certainly be a phenomenal experience! Of course this could be decades away from wider application, and I can imagine a great number of people would find being plugged in on that fundamental a biological level to be a bit too dystopian for them.

     

    There is scarcely anything in this world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey. - John Ruskin

  • 06-08-2008 1:58 PM In reply to

    • Alex
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    Re: Has Bang & Olufsen lost it's product MOJO?

    I'm not a fan of these kinda interfaces, it's just a way of making it even more boring to do. All you have to do is think of it and it's done. There's no 'event' to it.

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  • 06-08-2008 2:00 PM In reply to

    Re: Has Bang & Olufsen lost it's product MOJO?

    Good lord!

    I'm chuckling to myself as I realized I just posted about the potential for thought controlled electronics! I think we should worry about getting a second HDMI input on the BeoVision 8 first!Big Smile

    There is scarcely anything in this world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey. - John Ruskin

  • 06-09-2008 2:31 AM In reply to

    Re: Has Bang & Olufsen lost it's product MOJO?

    I do not think B&O have lost their mojo at all. I think the pure external design of any of their products is easily recognisable as B&O (bar the link equipment) from the 70's through to the current day.

    However, there are some instances whereby the ability to design something unique is rather challenging - flat TV's being one and MP3 players being another.

    If you look in terms of functionality and control, then there are products which stand-out more than others. All the ATL loudspeakers come to mind here - which is truly revolutionary. The BV7 in terms of its functionality is way better than the Avant (which the CRT had 40 years of development to rely on). Even the Serenata (which I absolutely love for what it is and does rather and what it does not do or pretend to be) has mojo. Then there is the BC2 which is fresh technology and not simply a reshaping of the BC9000 series products. In-fact, looking back from the late seventies to date, there are only one or two products throughout that a time that were revolutionary (i.e. at no greater frequency than today's revolutionary products). Many of the Beomasters, Beocords, Beocentres were reboxed over time with slightly different interfaces and with small incremental improvements or simplifications. The BC9000 for instance, is fundamentally the same control interface (and similar internals) from 1987 to 2000 over 5 products.

    I guess ultimately, and as read this continually on this forum, people want B&O to be like this product or like that one or have a feature that is the same as Apple's etc... which no doubt leads to disappointment when B&O don't copy, don't follow the mainstream or do something in their own way and gives the perception of a loss of direction.

    10%

  • 06-09-2008 2:46 AM In reply to

    Re: Has Bang & Olufsen lost it's product MOJO?

    >>I wouldn't want to perform an interpretive dance every time I wanted to change channels! <<

     You would need 3 motions if there is s screen involved .... replicate what they do with the Beocom Wheel .......that would be far from beeing an interpretive dance ...... .... ahhh I managed not to mention the Fruit Company that release new products tomorrow ..... 

     

     

     

    BS9000, BS2300, BC2, BL2500, BL3, Bl2, BS1, BV8, BC4, A8

  • 06-09-2008 5:03 AM In reply to

    • moxxey
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    Re: Has Bang & Olufsen lost it's product MOJO?

    Mr10Percent:

    However, there are some instances whereby the ability to design something unique is rather challenging - flat TV's being one

    Completely correct. I think David Lewis mentioned that in a recent interview - people want their flat screen to be as flat as possible, but somehow they (B&O) have to design quality audio to complement their flat screen TVs. Dilemma. How do you make a screen completely flat, but at the same time give the user a great audio experience?

  • 06-09-2008 6:18 AM In reply to

    Re: Has Bang & Olufsen lost it's product MOJO?

    I would also like to add to this thread some of my own opinions regarding B&O and Mojo. Although many have said Apple is the best thing since sliced bread, I'm having real difficulty getting into it.

    I consider myself relatively young (young to what you may ask?), and have been buying B&O for 15 years now. I don't want to get involved in pay-per-listen, pay-per-view, and subscription anything (but I might think differently if I could get decent download speeds at home - another one of those run-before-we-can-walk technologies).

    I've seen the Apple TV and its integrated "systems" (I've had the misfortune of using one at a Manchester hotel for a week). The picture was lousy, downloads make the disk-start on the BC2 seem like "Quick-Fire McGraw" and it just feels so cheap and plastic-y.  Moving icons feels real "thin" and just could not get in to it!

    I despair at Windows Vista and all the garbage that comes with it, much preferring to have a totally trimmed-down XP with no bells and whistles and just enough functionality (and speed) to DO MY JOB! When I get home, I don't want to spend the next 8 awakening hours on the PC again playing with entertainment selections and choices.

    I think David Lewis hit a very important point home in the interview with Adam Smith; somehow, we lose a great deal of interaction with our media...the love and care that goes into an LP, keeping it in pristine condition, reviewing the cover art and storing it.

    We can argue that B&O has lost it's mojo but I think it is a case that the media industry has lost its mojo. Fully downloadable, fully connected soul-less compressed media. The only way to keep us interested is going to be countless new devices and formats every 30 seconds giving us something we want but really don't want.

    Oh and when Apple et al rule the world and want more money or to continue the epic share-price trend, there will be the invasive adverts every 2 minutes for us to cough-up and pay for.

    Call me an old f**t but to me B&O mainly make the things I want and make them work in the way I want to.  I hope they can find a way to continue to do that. I hope there are more old f**ts like me buying for the experience and simplicity and less really young whipper-snappers buying cheap and cheerful gadgets to keep them amused for the next five minutes as they are too old for Lego.

    10%

     

     

     

     

  • 06-09-2008 8:48 AM In reply to

    Re: Has Bang & Olufsen lost it's product MOJO?

    Call me an old f**t but to me B&O mainly make the things I want and make them work in the way I want to.  I hope they can find a way to continue to do that. I hope there are more old f**ts like me buying for the experience and simplicity and less really young whipper-snappers buying cheap and cheerful gadgets to keep them amused for the next five minutes as they are too old for Lego.

    10%

      I believe you have hit the nail square on the head there young fella...

     B&O's "thing" was always quality linked with ease of use, the whole "man being the master of technology" thing that used to be their strap line back in the day. The trouble, as far as I see it, is they tried to change their product range to attract a younger customer base. Fine, but it seemed to be a total change over. In just a very short period going into a dealer changed from  an exciting, allways worthwhile trip, to a gadget obssesed, iPod MP3 mobile phone nightmare!  Most of these "develpoments" seemed to be based on, if not made by, outside companies.

        As an old school B&O punter I am not interested in hooking an iPod to a pair of speakers or watching my mobile phone "erect" itself ... I think from what I read in the press B&O are a bit lost. They dont seem to have thei troubles to seek and I would like to see them return to their core values, if there is still time...

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