(To Whom It May Concern) You seemed to have proved my point.

Simon.

I'm not going to cover old ground regarding the original post on this subject.

One of the other moderators removed as it was really going nowhere as there are certainly no vested financial interests from anyone on Beoworld. However I do respect your opinions Simon and thought your above comment warranted a reply.

Chris.

Thanks Chris, I appreciate your response. Of course there is a vested interest, that goes without saying. Nobody sets something up for free at a cost to themselves, that purely isn't business practice, good or bad. Financial gain doesn't come into it, but all sorts of other gains do, such as being offered your own dealership and organising and heading trips etc. Lets not beat around the bush because I hate that and find it personally insulting. Happy Easter...

Simon.

The Beonic Man:

Thanks Chris, I appreciate your response. Of course there is a vested interest, that goes without saying. Nobody sets something up for free at a cost to themselves, that purely isn't business practice, good or bad. Financial gain doesn't come into it, but all sorts of other gains do, such as being offered your own dealership and organising and heading trips etc. Lets not beat around the bush because I hate that and find it personally insulting. Happy Easter...

Simon.

Frankly Simon I feel insulted your unfounded insinuations. On what do you base your comments? I have given my free time to this forum for nearly as long as it was founded - under the previous owner and the present one - and I can categorically state that I don't give my time freely to ANYTHING that that I don't feel is deserving of it. If you think otherwise then fine, you either think someone is "on the make" or that I am being made a fool of. I'm staggered that someone who has gained so much out of this forum feels so little empathy towards the the rest of the membership as you do.

Chris.

fao OP : don't judge other people by your own standards , you really are far too cynical

 some people actually do things for other people for no other reason than to give pleasure to others / spread some knowledge

 hard to believe in this modern age i know 

the mods on this site , partic. peter have been dipping in their own pockets to keep this place going for YEARS and bno as far as i know don't even acknowledge it's existence ( certainly not properly imo )

the forum at bno's official site is rubbish compared to beoworld

 we're all very lucky we have such a wonderful place to air our views! 

I must confess that I agree with Chris. I feel insulted by these insinuations. I have not received any jollies from B&O and have sponsored this site for some considerable time and continue to do so, all be it at a much lesser level than Lee now does. I am not and do not wish to be a dealer and sell no equipment on eBay. As a number of you know, I donate equipment to those who need it and also donate considerable amounts of my time to scanning and adding manuals as well as answering queries.

B&O do now acknowledge our presence but as far as information is concerned, we receive very little directly.

I am not sure why this member is making these remarks - as far as I am aware he has made good use of the forum and received impartial advice on a number of occasions. 

Peter,

I understand that you feel insulted by the insinuation made.

I am convinced that the majority of the users of this site feel completely different, it is really clear that you and the other moderators/owners of this site put in a lot of effort to make this site to what it is now. And this is highly appreciated! Please do not get your spirit down because of this individual opinion, because this would not be worth it!

Bieele 

Bieele:

Peter,

I understand that you feel insulted by the insinuation made.

I am convinced that the majority of the users of this site feel completely different, it is really clear that you and the other moderators/owners of this site put in a lot of effort to make this site to what it is now. And this is highly appreciated! Please do not get your spirit down because of this individual opinion, because this would not be worth it!

Bieele 

I totally agree with your view Bieele. I really enjoy this site and appreciate the time and effort that Lee, the moderators and the members put in to it. Keep up the good work.

Flappo The Grate:

the forum at bno's official site is rubbish compared to beoworld

 

Flappo, I do know what you mean. Although I think the people who post on the official site are more Cutomers than Enthusiasts. You don't get many members on the official site who seem to post reguarly. Apart from Peter that is.

Craig

I take everyone's points on board but do still hold the same opinion. Perhaps I have sounded harsh in stating it and that is a mistake.

I have received excellent advice through this forum, absolutly, and I am very grateful for that. However, I also know that I pay a subscription so I am paying for the services I receive. That cost may be justified by offering prizes in a draw but still it is a cost. I have benefited from sound advice, especially from Peter, saf, 355f and several others (mostly BV5 owners) in the early days more recently Moxxey and others.

Perhaps I am a little more hard nosed than most having the attitude that nobody sets something up for free. The initial owner of the site did. The current owner bought it therefore there was a vested interest of some kind and there are obvious benefits that go with that.

I am not suggesting for one moment that other users, particularly moderators are not offering their services (and in Peter's case money) for free. If they are then that is their choice to do so and for them individually perhaps there is no gain other than personal satisfaction, which is a commendable trait in this day and age as a member pointed out. But in contrast, let me draw on another example several months after the new site had been online for a while and Gold membership was slow. I remember seeing many posts about the prize draw that made constant references pushing people to join up or upgrade to gold membership. If you look back at these posts you'll note they were in fact quite forceful and made people feel guilty if they didn't join. Some of the posts were composed by the moderators on behalf of the site. Clearly these posts were written in that way because there was/is a vested interest, and that is the only point I am attempting to make.

There are all sorts of other vested interests, which could include advertising your own business to undercut and successfully compete against others for financial gain; to gain market share; to claim ownership (albeit virtual) over a large community of users and be a spokesperson; networking and making links with B&O; allowing people to express views that can be to the detriment of B&O and their franchises. There is no doubt that Beoworld is a serious threat to the official B&O dealers and while some support it I know most don't. There is the fear that wrong information is spread through the forum and this ultimately always comes back to the dealer to have to explain and put right. The outcome of this of course is that it makes it harder for the dealer to sell a product when a potential customer has heard something 'wrong' about it. The BV7-40 is a recent good example. They also don't like it for other reasons and if you want to know what they are then talk about Beoworld with them on your next visit and ask their views about this site. This is why I used the term 'personally insulting' because the very fact that I need to explain this IS insulting! At least to me as an intelligent human being! Let us also remember that a vested interest means you have control over who you accept as a member, who you don't accept and keep out (such as competitors who own other second-hand B&O shops), what posts you allow to people to read and what posts you remove. Perhaps this one will be removed at some point if it starts to get more heated as we go along. Clearly I have started somemthing here that is going to evoke passionate responses and that makes for a good debate. Us Greeks are good at doing that. Many users are very protective of this site but I am not that sort of person. I am much more individual. I can like it and I can dislike it. I don't feel like I have to say wonderful things about Beoworld just because I am a member. I will say what I honestly think and believe to be true on whatever is being debated that interest me.

It is not my intention to spark fury or upset people. If my tone seems an ungrateful one in regard to the help I have personally received then that is certainly not my intention. I do have to be direct in order to explain my points so I hope this isn't seen as a personal attack to anyone particularly although I recognise it is a sensitive area.

Simon.

i've posted at beoworld since c. 2003 ( the good olde daze ) and i've never spent a penny on membership fees , so i don't know what point you're trying to make about posters being strong armed into buying stuff

makes this site the bargain of the century i guess ! 

The subscription you pay gives you access to the extensive manual section and automatic entry into the monthly draw.

You could (and would) have received exactly the same service and advise were you a bronze member (i.e. free), as Flappo points out. You can also join the monthly draw by application each month without paying the subscription if you wish. Most here pay the subscription to ensure the long term viability of the site, I certainly wasn't "herded" or pressured to subscribe.

(btw the original "free" site charged a fee to join the "Connoisseurs Club" where the maunals were stored, and regularly touted for donations to keep the site alive and so wasn't, in fact, free at all! If you join here as a Silver member you have all the same benefits of a "Connoisseur", without being asked for additional contributions throughout the year).

There are obvious expenses involved in running the site, it is maintained and hosted by professionals. (Those that remember the old site will also remember the frequent and frustrating downtime caused by poor hosting).

Additionally there are many, long term, members here who deal openly in second hand B&O without issue which would suggest to me that perhaps there were other issues involved in the case you highlight.

On the whole I don't see why you feel the need to have a go at the site or it's administration. I for one am always impressed by the fair and professional manner in which the site is run.

I have deleted the last couple of posts on this thread. This site is on the whole frequented by intelligent and generous individuals. I can understand strong emotions can be stirred by certain posts but please do not rise to these and post gratuitous insults.

Not to be flip about it, but it was exciting while it lasted.  Although I know this thread stirred up a lot of passion and emotion in the membership, I must say as a neutral observer I did find the discussion both honest and frank.  I have to say that I think it is really a testament to BeoWorld that it was allowed to happen in the first place and that it was allowed to last so long in the second.

Back to the music?

Tom

Well I have made a new friend through this site, Flappo the Grate, so I am extremely grateful for that. He is a 38 year old female from Uganda ( see http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=26652477 for further details) whose only interest in life is to be abusive through a number of online portals. My life would have been so empty without him, so a big thank you to Beoworld for that.

It has been fun and I know that I voice a great many views that people have but might not say. I like saying them because its honest and straight to the point, a Greek trait and one that I am proud of. All the best.

Simon.

Actually you don't seem to voice any of my thoughts at all. I personally find there is a big difference between honesty and rudeness. Clearly the line between them is something we all must find and decide. I am sorry that you have decided to leave Beoworld and hope that you have benefitted from some of the advice you have sought. This is essentially an information site and tries its best to avoid personal slurs so that all members can gain without being made to feel inferior or superior to anyone else. A lot of members on this site are actually extremely wealthy but give their time freely. Others have to save to indulge their passion for B&O. All in my view are equally valuable to this site and add to the extremely friendly nature of this site.

I will, at your request, delete your membership immediately. 

The Beonic Man:

Well I have made a new friend through this site, Flappo the Grate, so I am extremely grateful for that. He is a 38 year old female from Uganda ( see http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=26652477 for further details) whose only interest in life is to be abusive through a number of online portals. My life would have been so empty without him, so a big thank you to Beoworld for that.

It has been fun and I know that I voice a great many views that people have but might not say. I like saying them because its honest and straight to the point, a Greek trait and one that I am proud of. All the best.

Simon.

????

 Having read this thread with interest, I will declare here and now that I do indeed have a vested interest.

I own a B&O franchise in Manchester.  I ran a couple of events instore that some folks from these boards have attended.  I would like to think that everyone had an enjoyable visit, and that they were not unduly pressured into buying anything - (you'd have to ask them )  although bear in mind that it is, after all, a shop )  What I would say is it was an honour to host both events, and everyone who attended was a warm & friendly person - no exceptions.  But - I do use my shops name as a username here, so I suppose that is a form of advertising.  I have publicised a couple of evening - we even hosted a BeoWorld Prize Draw.  So, maybe I "used" the site for financial gain.

However - I can assure The Bionic Man that if Lee ( or anyone else ) wanted to cynically obtain ££'s via a website, there are far easier / more lucrative ways to do so - the level of detail, care, time, interest etc that is put into the BeoBrand via this site is way ahead of the bare minimum that could be done for similar financial return.

So the only possible conclusion is that extra time & effort is done willingly, for the shared benefit of the other members.  Not be all dewey -eyed about it - this is a great "fan site", but the reality is that Lee has overheads, and a living to make, so there needs to be some income - but to accuse the founder/members/mods of this site in such a way is simply not fair.  I am fairly sure that Beoworld alone would not even pay minimum-wage if it was a full time job - so why be so negative ??

Greek or not - what's with the aggression? I don't see that as fortright or candid at all. Just stirring the pot? Or arguing over how many angels fit on the head of a pin?

You write: There is no doubt that Beoworld is a serious threat to the official B&O dealers and while some support it I know most don't. There is the fear that wrong information is spread through the forum and this ultimately always comes back to the dealer to have to explain and put right.

How on earth can BeoWorld be a threat to the official B&O dealers? Wrong information? B&O are free to correct whatever information is entered here, immediately, as are all the dealers. If someone here points out that things could be better, or that a B&O solution may not be top notch, then that information is not wrong -- it may be inconvenient, but it could also be the truth. If not - correct it.
And B&O should thank its lucky stars that someone bothers with BeoWorld. Post a question at the official site and you'll get a pretty useless answer, after a long wait; post it here, and you'll get an informed one in a few minutes - which matches marketing claims against real world experiences. (In comparison, the B&O Wednesday chat sessions that Coolskin likes to post read like an absurd play by Pirandello.)
People are getting their systems working with ten minutes of assistance here, and are often spared having to wait for dealers to come and correct the problem.

This site practises instant correction or emendation. Just the other day I suggested that the Beomaster 6500 was one of the finest amp's in the stackable range, Peter voiced his doubts and raised the 5000 to championship level. That's how an enthusiasts' site works. Evaluate the information, consider it, do what you will with it.

B&O needs BeoWorld -- all premium brands need to have a strong and enthusiastic fan base, often critical and often reverential of what the brand's up to. Any brand that thinks it can operate in today's web connected world without giving its fans an independent voice is doomed to a hard time.

And isn't your example, which I have quoted above, actually the very proof you seek that BeoWorld is independent of B&O?

(Written by someone who's had extensive dealings with and contacts with B&O, but who is not presently directly involved with the company!)
 

Actually Beoworld runs at a loss. The subscriptions come nowhere near to covering the cost of running the site and it is only the small amount of advertising on the main site that makes us come close to solvency. No-one at Beoworld draws any money from the site - all the moderators are unpaid and always have been. The only person who has ever made any money from this site was the original owner.

There are a number of B&O dealers on site - and they are most welcome. Some are happy to post under their real name and others post under pseudonyms. Many offer excellent advice to other members on here and we are most grateful for this.

In addition, there are a number of re-sellers on site. They do not advertise on site as we have tried to make this site free of advertising as far as possible. You will notice that there is no advertising on the forum at all. This has caused some disagreements in the past and I dare say is not universally popular. However those of us who can remember the old B&O Message Board will remember that this became unusable due to unregulated advertising.  

There are other B&O sites but I think this one offers the friendliest atmosphere as well as the quickest and most helpful answers available.  Despite insinuations to the contrary, we are independent of B&O though clearly, as an enthusiast site,  we try not to damage the interests of B&O. We are not above criticising though and I believe that B&O value some of the more forthright posters opinions.

I will personally support the freedom of anyone to speak their mind as long as it is not insulting or damaging. If you have complaints about the site or any member, whether they be a new member or a moderator, do approach one of the moderators and we will try to address your concerns.

 

Across the internet there are many forums that are run by honest individuals with no ulterior motive that to help other individuals.

I am not a moderator here, but I am a moderator on a forum for children and adults with  Autism and their families and carers. You could say that I have a vested interest in that two of my children are on the Autistic Spectrum and it helps me to have that interchange of ideas witrh parents, but I give my time freely and if there is any potential for reward from moderating the forum  I am at a loss to think what it might be. The forum is enturely financed by the people who orginally set it up who have refused my repeated offers of financial assistance and the forum carries no advertising of any kind.

Likewise I have always felt that the people running this form are first and foremost B&O enthuiasts and they give their time freely becuase of that enthusiasm  and because there are some good people here. I would also suggest that if Lee is doing this to  make money he could find more efficient ways of doing it as I would guess that Lee doesn't make any money at all from Beoworld and the value of prizes probably exceeds subscription revenue by some margin.

I think  it sad that some people find it so hard to accept that there are good people out there who will do 'something for nothing', in that sense Beoworld is typical of many forums out there, and I am at a loss to understand why it has been singled out for all this unproductive sniping.

Simon
 

it's hard to believe , but some people can't accept that there are actually individuals that do things for the common good

they don't look for plaudits or financial recompense

they do it because they enjoy it 

and they enjoy other people enjoying it , too

it's a kind of 'feel good factor'

there's been something in the news recently about how giving things to others makes you happier than getting gifts yourself

that's what peter and his friends do for us ( peter is also a doctor - and they're wonderful giving people too in my experience )

they give without asking anything in return except we behave ourselves and we enjoy ourselves

how on earth can that be anything but  a wonderful thing ?

Peter :

Actually Beoworld runs at a loss. The subscriptions come nowhere near to covering the cost of running the site and it is only the small amount of advertising on the main site that makes us come close to solvency. 

I am very sad to hear that. I think hard work and quality should be rewarded. What would be wrong with the owner making a profit? I for one am happy paying my gold membership just for the automatic entry into the prize draw. I wish this site every success in the future and if that means a profitable one, then more the better.

Flappo The Grate:

they don't look for plaudits or financial recompense

they do it because they enjoy it 

and they enjoy other people enjoying it , too

it's a kind of 'feel good factor'

Flappo, I do believe you have just hit the nail on the head. Well said.

Craig

The Beonic Man:

It has been fun and I know that I voice a great many views that people have but might not say. I like saying them because its honest and straight to the point, a Greek trait and one that I am proud of. All the best.

Simon.

Simon

You and I might have differed over our opinions of the BV7, but I do understand where you're coming from with some (please note some means not all - for all the sensitive souls out there) of the points you raised here, and I would like to offer you some support. I don't know what was said in the deleted posts on this thread, and if it was a trade of insults then perhaps a quick visit to an exchange that Moxxey and I had a couple of weeks ago about the BV7 should be a guide to the best way to call it quits when things get too heated, but I don't see why you can't question whether a site that charges membership fees to those that wish to pay them is not completely 'independent' of any outside influences. It's a relatively straightforward thing to ask, and I know there is a fine line between questioning the notional 'independence' of the site, and that this does risk spilling over into questioning the honourable motives of many of those involved here, but every time this topic has come up since Lee bought the site we've had various members shouting down those who raised the question in the first place. Personally, I don't have a problem with the original post, and I find it disappointing that this thread will end up like all the others covering this topic. Lee himself has never stamped on these posts. Indeed, quite the opposite in most cases, where he has clearly set out the realities of running Beoworld at a loss from his own pocket with honesty and good humour. The stifling of this kind of discussion does make me question though whether I will renew my membership next month. I'm not involved with other discussion forums to the extent I am here, and perhaps any questioning of ownership/independence/moderation of posts would elicit similar responses elsewhere, but I have been thinking for a while that I might like to step back a little from participating here until my thoughts have become clearer, and the reaction to your post has certainly given me food for thought.

I have benefitted personally from the generous support, advice, and donations of equipment from many of the prominent members of this forum, but I for one am unhappy when a single poster gets shouted down to this extent. I have read most of your posts and though I have disagreed with some of the things you have said (BV7 - we'll have to agree to differ) I cannot think of any where you weren't pleasantly courteous to all involved (me included).

"It's a relatively straightforward thing to ask, and I know there is a fine line between questioning the notional 'independence' of the site, and that this does risk spilling over into questioning the honourable motives of many of those involved here, but every time this topic has come up since Lee bought the site we've had various members shouting down those who raised the question in the first place."

There was absolutely no reason why the question shouldn´t asked, (again), the way it was asked was to me offensive (as it directly questioned my motives in being a moderator on the site) and designed to have a go,  rather than enter a debate, vigorous or otherwise.

I think a certain amount of perspective is required here too. This is a web site / forum not real life.