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ARCHIVED FORUM -- April 2007 to March 2012
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This is the first Archived Forum which was active between 17th April 2007 and 1st March February 2012

 

Latest post 08-25-2008 4:54 AM by steph. 201 replies.
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  • 03-02-2008 3:24 PM In reply to

    • Roger
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    Re: BS5 Any news???

    I will have to agree with BeoNut1/Mark until B&O proves me wrong. There is nothing stopping them from updating the BeoMedia 1 on a daily basis, as (most) customers have it connected through a broadband connection at all times - but do they? No. The improvements seen to the user interface since the Scandinavian-only prototype (BeoLink Media, two-box solution) to the last and current BeoMedia SW have left me with the same conclusion as Mark: B&O is not a software company, and will never be one.

    But as a dedicated fan I truly belive that the next product will sort all this out...

    But my wife gave up on the BeoSound 2 and BeoSound 3 products a long time ago - and converted to Apple: She can unplug that Apple thing and walk off with everything updated. The BeoSound 2 is sometimes not recognized by the BeoPlayer, sometimes it writes data to a full SD card that it claims is empty. I can work around this, but the rest of the family will not bother. Recently she pulled out the BeoSound 3 and the SD card was full of Xmas music, updating the SD card with a new playlist or new albums to took to much effort (using the BeoSound 2 as the editing device for the SD card is mainly to be blamed here) - and Apple won that battle as well.

    The BeoSound 5 will add some magic touches to the user interface and B&O will also put their "mechanical" signature on the product. But can the BeoSound 5 (or the new BeoMedia 1 sw) make me pull up Jeff Healey and the Feel This album in no time? I do not want the system to recommend albums based on what the previous user listened to.

    Roger

  • 03-02-2008 3:42 PM In reply to

    • BeoNut1
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    Re: BS5 Any news???

    Roger,

    We think alike.

    I'd like to add one more thing.  iTunes is an incredibly powerful piece of software that transcends both major computing platforms.  A large team of gifted programmers has evolved that piece of software in to what is arguably one of the finest pieces of code ever written (certainly so as it pertains to the Windows system).  B&O can never hope to emulate this accomplishment unless they're willing to employ teams of high-paid programmers for the next several years to try and do this same thing.

    Please B&O, wake up and use Apple's software.  Partner with Apple.  Concentrate on hardware.  Let Apple advertise for you with their brilliant software.

    Again, just my 2 cents,

    Mark 

    Mark D
  • 03-02-2008 4:01 PM In reply to

    • Russ
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    Re: BS5 Any news???

    RussR:

    Don't get me or the kittens wrong. We're major Apple fans, but the BeoSound 5 has convinced us that the experience is still best left to the pros. 

    That is all the kittens feel comfortable sharing right now. I will share more as memos are released from the basket.

     

    I think it rather clear that a couple of sets of kittens are comingling here.  I really need to remember to log off of BeoWorld when I'm at the homeless shelter.... 

     

    Russ

    (Only 1 kitten speaks to me) 

    We kid because we love.

     

    Bang & Olufsen Tysons Galleria

    McLean, VA USA

  • 03-02-2008 4:13 PM In reply to

    • Roger
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    Re: BS5 Any news???

    Please look after the kitten! We wouldn't want it to go on a Safari and meet a Tiger or a LeopardBig Smile

    Roger

  • 03-02-2008 4:20 PM In reply to

    Re: BS5 Any news???

    I would prefer B&O to remain just the same as they are and not partner up with anybody. They do a fine job being who they are and while other companies are masters in their fields, so are B&O in theirs. What they do suits me just fine.

    Simon.

    "We can rebuild him. We have the technology." 7-40, 7-2, 9000, BS3, BC2, LC2, BC6000, Beo5
  • 03-02-2008 4:20 PM In reply to

    Re: BS5 Any news???

    Today's Apple TV use in our household:

    My daughter and friends have watched two episodes of a US TV series, which they downloaded to harddisk and began watching within minutes.

    I watched the second half of a feature film I rented, while excercising - and have since listened to music, which the Apple TV is pulling in from a number of different sources (computers/harddisks in the house). The film was an HD-version which downloaded in less than an hour, and which played with 5.1 channel Dolby Digital and 1080i resolution on my television.

    I have also watched/listened to a couple of podcasts I subscribe to, while working in the afternoon/evening.

    Neither Microsoft, Sony or B&O will ever be able to put together what Apple has now done, through serendipity and forethought, with iTunes, iPod, iPhone, Apple TV, Mac OSX, QuickTime, etc - add the fact that their products are being used by content creators in any form of art you could think of around the world. It's a juggernaut, and either you work with it, or you recognize that you're 78 rpm and everything is passing you by. 

    BBC has 100 different podcasts on iTunes ... enter the name of your national broadcaster in search and you have their podcasts, within seconds, ready to listen to, subscribe to or download. At the click of a button, with a six-button remote.

    B&O can deliver the sound and the images, through products that breathe exceptional life into that content, and that help put it all together sensibly and within easy reach. There's no way they can play catch-up or hope to surpass what Apple is doing to the delivery of content, but they can help channel that content through screens, projectors and speakers that are second to none in quality. And B&O could even sign up for the delivery of exclusive content to its customer base, a trusted group of registered customers that could get early access and richer content access to what's available out there - around the world.

    But any effort at trying to create a rival platform to iTunes and the iTunes Store, as it exists today, will be too little and too late - work with it and drive it towards delivering lossless and super resolution content. 

     

  • 03-02-2008 4:37 PM In reply to

    • BeoNut1
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    Re: BS5 Any news???

    Soundproof,

    Eloquently put - I couldn't agree more.  I've followed your posts on Beoworld for some time and I find it reassuring that our views are similar despite my comparative lack of A/V knowledge compared to you (and I mean this in all sincerity).

     

     

    Simon,

    At the risk of appearing too rude, adversarial, or sarcastic, are you familiar with the concept of "the cheese being moved"?  If not, I could recommend a few books that you could read that will explain the concept.  In today's world, these premises are more true than ever before.  Please don't see those of us at odds with B&O's current technology decisions and philosophies as being anti-B&O.  I wouldn't be signed in to this forum (or for that matter, spending excessive sums of money on A/V hardware from B&O) if I didn't want B&O to succeed.

     

     

    Mark 

     

    Mark 

    Mark D
  • 03-02-2008 4:55 PM In reply to

    Re: BS5 Any news???

    >>ssentially it will offer contextualized access to your music collection and this will develop as more and more "metadata" is collected for access.<<

     I do not know how this would pan out legally, but take this a bit further. You could  share your library with others via some sort of a bit torrent model, where no local data is kept, just streamed over the internet. Based on what you have in your library it could suggest new music from other peoples libraries and stream it to your beosound.

    Pretty much what pandora.com is doing. I don't think this could be done across borders due to legal issues but I am expecting something like that.

    It could also be that it analyses content, you start off with a song and based on analyzing beats per minutes and maybe genre it picks and mixes in follow up songs, like an automatic DJ.

    It must go beyond what sonos has or a neat UI, they would not be so late to the party.

     

    JK 

      

     

     

     

    BS9000, BS2300, BC2, BL2500, BL3, Bl2, BS1, BV8, BC4, A8

  • 03-02-2008 5:22 PM In reply to

    • Munin
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    Re: BS5 Any news???

    @ Soundproof:

    Thanks for describing the enormous benefits of Apple's solution in such clear language. I often have the feeling that many in this forum simply don't get what it is all about. B&O will have absolutely no chance of surviving if they attempt to compete with Apple. They make fantastic audio and video products, and I'm so excited about the new BS5 ... but their only option is to make their products perfectly and seamlessly compatible with iTunes Music Store and the Apple TV. In doing so ... we could have wonderful AV products that will be absolutely future proof. By ignoring this B&O wouldn't be for long. Ignoring Apple is like trying to build cars and insisting on having steam engines. Works fine but where to buy the coal.
     
    /Munin 
  • 03-02-2008 5:23 PM In reply to

    • Alex
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    Re: BS5 Any news???

    Reinforces my opinion that B&O should stick to producing fantastic TVs and sound systems. They haven't been able to cut it in the digital field. Apple brings to digital media what B&O has bought to integration for me...

     Weekly top artists:                   

  • 03-02-2008 5:27 PM In reply to

    Re: BS5 Any news???

    The question is where the train is going. To ignore digital media would be very risky if you look at a 10 year horizon.

    While some feel records sound better then CDs how hard is it today to be without CD player. Few years from now the same may happen with the CD. If they don't offer digital media solutions they may just disappear.

     It is interesting that B&O is the only company with an Itunes plug in. Maybe they are on the right track.

    BS9000, BS2300, BC2, BL2500, BL3, Bl2, BS1, BV8, BC4, A8

  • 03-02-2008 5:29 PM In reply to

    • Russ
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    Re: BS5 Any news???

    Roger:

    Please look after the kitten! We wouldn't want it to go on a Safari and meet a Tiger or a LeopardBig Smile

    Roger

     

    I don't want to sound alarmist, and I have stopped wearing aluminium hats, but I think there is a tiger in my computer, and it must have eaten the leopard that lived there before...I am tempted to make a joke about the jaguar burning itself to the ground, but that might be mixing too many references...and might offend the Brits here.

     

    As to the BS-5.  I think that with so many internet sources now selling DRM-free music (ITMS included), that there is a very good opportunity for B&O to do things with the UI that others have not yet really done.  I can easily see something that takes off from what Kalidescape has already done, and perhaps adds elements of something like the Glass Engine.  I'm surprised that TripEnglish hasn't mentioned that yet...I imagine that his kittens will be quite cross with him.

    http://www.philipglass.com/glassengine/

    Russ 

    We kid because we love.

     

    Bang & Olufsen Tysons Galleria

    McLean, VA USA

  • 03-02-2008 5:42 PM In reply to

    Re: BS5 Any news???

    This thread is far to intellectual for me but fantastic reading and very interesting. Keep up the great posts. Smile

    Never Mind The Ball-Cocks www.markmossplumbing.co.uk

    A labourer uses his hands
    A tradesman uses his hands and his head
    A craftsman uses his hands, his head and his heart

  • 03-02-2008 6:26 PM In reply to

    Re: BS5 Any news???

    Russ.

    The kittens wanted the Glass Engine to be a surpise.

    The kittens feel that bringing Philip Glass into a conversation is elitist.

     

    There is scarcely anything in this world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey. - John Ruskin

  • 03-02-2008 6:53 PM In reply to

    • BeoNut1
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    Re: BS5 Any news???

    Munin,

    I completely agree with your very succinctly expressed thoughts - i.e. that Apple is the elephant / 800 pound gorilla in the room and if B&O ignores or tries to compete against Apple, B&O will fail to flourish as it otherwise would if it cooperated with the future leader in media distribution software.

    I literally pray that B&O is reading these threads and takes note of it's loyal followers' impassioned pleas.

    I feel somewhat ridiculous seeing these things from the humble vantage point of an "informed consumer" and even mentioning these thoughts to a revered company in hopes of that company appreciating what is obvious to so many well-versed enthusiasts.  Yet, I believe that is the situation.

    If 5 years from now I'm proven to be completely wrong with regard to my opinions about B&O's corporate direction as well as my thoughts about where Apple fits in to these directions, I'd be more than happy to eat "humble pie".  In fact, I'd be elated to be wrong in these regards.  However, I've watched my suspicions unfold over the past several years, and I have no reason to believe that the vision that so many of us Apple users see will fail to come to fruition.

    Mark

     

    Mark D
  • 03-02-2008 7:00 PM In reply to

    Re: BS5 Any news???

    Here's my beef with Kaleidescape - and I'm criticizing something that to a certain extent I've done myself, using a server and DVD-Pedia. Let's say you're a premium Kaleidescape customer, with money to burn, and you buy 4.000 movies and have them transferred to harddisks, readily available in your yacht or mansion. Great - something for you and all your guests.

    But it's never going to be a mass product, is it? What if there are 400.000 movies, millions of tv-programs and tens of millions of radio programs and music downloads available, through the net -- and you just pick and choose what you want, when you want it? That's what Apple is doing. But it's important to realize that they are not generating content, they're just transporting it, making it available, and sorting out payment.

    Which is precisely what vinyl, tape and cd's have been all about. But a lot of middlemen and unnecessary effort's been taken out of the equation, while the warehouse is near limitless in size and it's at your fingertips. You'd have to be ultrarich to have all that content available to you, on your yacht -- but I can be a poor student and have access to all of it through iTunes and the internet. The genius of it is that it's a perfectly customizable product, you get only what you want while having access to everything yet you only pay for what you use - and it's available to anyone with a computer and an internet connection.

    There are a lot of others offering content downloads on the net, but no one has made quite as efficient a job of making it available as Apple - and also helping you organize and play it back. And now that tv-producers, broadcasters, radio stations and movie studios are lining up to provide content, it's definitely difficult to see how it's going to stop.

    It makes as much sense to ignore this as if you were a competitor to Philips in the 80s and didn't like the CD-format they co-developed together with SONY. Once established and made available, all manufacturers began creating CD-players and performers began putting content on CDs and later DVDs -- B&O was early with players then, and should be just as early with exploiting the digital opportunities fully.

     

  • 03-02-2008 7:03 PM In reply to

    Re: BS5 Any news???

    TripEnglish:

    Russ.

    The kittens wanted the Glass Engine to be a surpise.

    The kittens feel that bringing Philip Glass into a conversation is elitist.

     

    I checked with the puppies and they said the Glass engine is indeed brilliant and would be fun.  However I was purchasing a book on Amazon after my last post when I realized where all the online content and all the metadata may come from.  It was an Amazon moment.  I am looking forward to the Beosound 5 if only to see how it works and of course the design.

    However the Apple TV for the price might be better because it is easier and works right out of the box.  Soundproof's description of Apple TV use in the home is well done.  Apple TV does have an implementation of metadata and tags but it is not readily apparent.  Don't worry folks about this meta stuff.  All it means is they are tracking what music and video you buy to help you with future purchases.  Isn't this wonderful?

    I am the last person to bash B&O but digital is more of a work in progress than flat panel TVs have ever been.  After the lengthly discussion of the Beovision 7 in the past few days, one can only imagine the forthcoming discussions after the Beosound 5 is introduced.

    Beoworld continues to be lively. 

    Thanks, 

     

    Beosound 5 BL9 BC2 BL8000 Beovision 7 BL6002  BL11 

     

  • 03-02-2008 8:00 PM In reply to

    • expoman
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    Re: BS5 Any news???

    While this tread teases us with ideas of what the BS5 may or may not be, the one known fact is that is audio only.  The Apple with AppleTV is quickly moving into the video world.  Since the world we live in is quickly becoming more video driven, I for one see little or no need for a audio only solution.

    Lets quickly recap at how B&O has viewed the visual world.  The Beosound 2 was faulted from the start for not having a display.  (Keep it in your pocket, displays create too much heat and drain the battery).  Next the Beosound 3200 introduced us the the concept of 4 X 99 CD's recorded on a hard drive that needed to first checking the included little black book listing your recordings if you took time to fill it out to find that album you recorded six months ago.  The Beocenter 2 included a larger display but for what purpose.  It can not access anything interesting to display except maybe RDS.  Then there is Beomedia.  Here we have internet radio, photos, music, web pages and .  While the internet radio is much better than what is available from iTunes, who listens to the radio any longer.  The photo slide shows on the Apple TV have the wow factor B&O should have had, but doesn't.  Music without cover art is so "2000" I still can't get my Beomedia to do it?  Even Apple realized that web pages on a TV screen went out with Web TV.  (I am working on my laptop while I watch TV right now, its called multitasking and it never stops)  So where's the B&O magic that BS5 promises to deliver?  Do I really care that the drummer on the song I'm playing was in three other bands?  Or just because I have a Dave Matthews album do I need the Blue man group album with his song in it? 

     

     

     

     

  • 03-02-2008 8:49 PM In reply to

    Re: BS5 Any news???

    Lets see what they come up with. There was a little buzz when Apple introduced the shuffle, the smart little content function it had. 

    For the Apple TV, this works very well in the US. However Apple was not yet very successful rolling this out into other countries.

     I checked earlier today the German Apple TV, that is widely different from what I have in the US. Same is valid for the UK. You get few TV shows if at all.

     So something hot over here turns not so hot over there.

     That said, for me it makes sense that they do not go into an area where content becomes critical.

    If you stay legal, most will not have enough footage to make proper use of the A-TV. This is also where Kaleidescape comes in. In the US, their product doesn't make much sense anymore due to the prohibitive  cost. For other countries, if you want to stay legal it still has it's place.

    There was no information yet giving on how they will take BS5 beyond what Sonos does and I doubt we see something before launch since other companies could just quickly copy it. BS3200 was unique at the time it came out. For BS2 they underestimated how quickly memory card capacity would grow. There is no need for a display when using a 256KB card which was standard back then.

    JK 

    BS9000, BS2300, BC2, BL2500, BL3, Bl2, BS1, BV8, BC4, A8

  • 03-03-2008 1:04 AM In reply to

    Re: BS5 Any news???

    I think that this is the thread we should be spending a great deal of time with. Television technology (which has captured our emotions lately!) will sort itself out naturally. What remains less clear is where content will come from, how we'll get it, and what we'll be able to do with it once it's there. iTunes, iPod, Apple TV, and whatever may be next are fine products, but as DRM slowly disappears (as it is currently with music and television programs), brands like our beloved B&O can really get in the game and build competitive platforms. Much of Apple's advantage comes from their deals with movie and music companies as much as beautiful products. Admittedly they pushed the industry into a new way of doing business, but they admitted themselves that for consumers to receive the best experience, record companies and music studios would have to eliminate DRM so that consumers could live with their content in whatever ways were convenient to them.

    Aside from ripping our own discs, we can now buy digital music on Amazon with no DRM as well as a limited amount on iTunes. I think it's unclear how video will move. Right now you can watch TV for free (with some ad content) but can't easily move it onto your machine without buying it, and movies seem to be moving faster toward on-demand rental than a concise ownership model. 

    I guess what I'm getting at is that where DRM barriers don't exist, I think Bang & Olufsen beats Apple. I love my BeoMedia and my BeoSound 2 remains my portable music player after over 4 years even with an iPhone in another pocket. Not everyone may agree, but my preference illustrates that there will always be a market for competing products and platforms and Bang & Olufsen is in a much better position than Goliaths like Sony, as they only serve a niche market to begin with.   

    If I had to guess (or wish!) I see a future much like the current HD Tivo. Unlike past models that worked with cable boxes or raw feeds, you plug a cable card into this one so you get the full compliment of content, but you deal with it in the Tivo environment. As content becomes free to move about, an evolving BeoMedia-like environment would be capable of organizing and storing/accessing content.

    As far as this relating to the BeoSound 5, I think the future is wide open. It's essentially a big screen, so what appears on that screen can change based on what media channels become available, stable, and easily accessible; just like BeoMedia, being just a computer, can be changed and upgraded to accommodate different media (I'm watching video on mine!). No matter what, it's going to be an exciting next few years!

    There is scarcely anything in this world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey. - John Ruskin

  • 03-03-2008 2:03 AM In reply to

    Re: BS5 Any news???

    My problem here is that I already have a superb B&O music server - it is called my Mac and works through my B&O system throughout the house two way using an iTouch as a remote. It is not perfect; it is a little slow and at present I need a Beo4 to switch on and control volume, but I do have access to my entire music collection which I can browse in whichever way I want. 

    It is this system the BS5 will have to compete with and I am nervous that it will have problems. At present I don't stream video, but I dare say my present system could do this with the addition of Apple TV .

  • 03-03-2008 2:08 AM In reply to

    Re: BS5 Any news???

    BeoNut1:

    Dear Gang,

    Just to "throw a wrench" in to this thread.  I find myself underwhelmed by the rumored features of the BS5.  As I've expressed in prior threads, I love B&O, but I want them sticking to speakers and TVs.  I find their software solutions cumbersome at best when compared to the combo of their hardware coupled with Apple software / hardware.

    For instance, I've just ordered a BV8 which I'll hook to an Apple TV and then have a pair of BL3s attached to the TV.  Tell me how the BS5 will be better than this combo assuming I've put my music on the computer in "lossless" format?  I know that the BS5 will presumably have "optical out", but my BL3s don't have "optical in".  We'll be able to peruse our music library via the BV8 (with the Beo4) and have the sound come out in pristine stereo.

    I know this sounds like I'm slamming the BS5 (a product that I've never seen except in that brief video clip), but my reasoning for adding my input to this thread isn't so much to "pan" the BS5 as to point out how a much cheaper solution will (in my opinion) function better than the BS5 in terms of features and future upgradability and yet deliver equally good sound.

    Likewise, who do you trust to keep the software elegant and up to date, B&O or Apple?

    Oh, one other thing, my much cheaper solution also allows me to watch rented and purchased movies and TV shows on my BV8.

     

    Just my (controversial) 2 cents,

    Mark 

     

    P.S.  You might wonder why I stated B&O stick with "speakers and TVs" rather than other audio equipment.  Well, I obviously believe that physical media is going the way of the doo doo bird.  I'd be willing to invest in a BS5 if it offered more in the way of sound (i.e. if I'm wrong about some of the presumptions I'm making), particularly if it were compatible with an online, updatable audio visual media server software. 

     

    my sentiments EXACTLY , bno should stick to what theyre good at at and not be tempted to play with the BIG guys 

    popgear is grate™

  • 03-03-2008 7:11 AM In reply to

    • BeoNut1
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    Re: BS5 Any news???

    Simply out of curiosity I'd like to hear a counter argument to my original question (which as best I can tell has gone unanswered):

    How will the BS5 beat my BV8 / BL3 / AppleTV set-up?  With my proposed set-up (assuming music is encoded in "lossless" format from store bought CDs), what do I lose compared to the extra several thousand dollars I'd spend on a BS5?

    It seems to me that having a constantly updating and evolving computer in the background that manages my audio / video collection (wirelessly) makes my proposed set-up superior to any rumored incarnation of the BS5.  The BS5 may have a beautiful form factor with a large screen.  But, it won't have a prettier or larger screen than my BV8 displaying my content via the AppleTV.  Likewise, assuming use of the same speakers (BL3s), does anyone feel that the BS5 would trump my proposed set-up sound-wise (assuming a digital source going in to the BV8 via HDMI)?

    Mark 

    Mark D
  • 03-03-2008 7:46 AM In reply to

    Re: BS5 Any news???

    Based on what we know, you get a 2 way remote so there is no need to leave the screen on. You also get the ability to listen to your music in link rooms and you can take the remote with your. Apple TV in the US is nothing more then an outlet for Itunes, the content that is available for purchase overshadows your own. Ths is much different then what the Europeans have.  BS5 doesn't do video though.

     BS5 will add an "experience" based  component and I don't think we know exactly what that is. If it involves me sitting down adding multiple categories to my songs, that wouldn't be it. If it is doing that in a smart way then this could be very nice.

    I have 100s or so Cds ripped, problem is navigating that stack. Pop Rock Jazz doesn't cut it. Late Night Mellow, Sunday Morning, Upbeat etc added to the base category that could be it. Now it would have to find out on it's own what belongs where. Which i think it could based on beats per minute.

    That is where Apple's solution lack, they don't manage large volume very well. I mean heck we are in version 7 and you still have a hard time breaking your library out on multiple hard drives or different computers.

     

     

    BS9000, BS2300, BC2, BL2500, BL3, Bl2, BS1, BV8, BC4, A8

  • 03-03-2008 7:58 AM In reply to

    Re: BS5 Any news???


    Based on what we know, you get a 2 way remote so there is no need to leave the screen on. You also get the ability to listen to your music in link rooms and you can take the remote with your. Apple TV in the US is nothing more then an outlet for Itunes, the content that is available for purchase overshadows your own. Ths is much different then what the Europeans have.  BS5 doesn't do video though.

    AppleTV is a conduit for free and purchased iTunes content, but will also allow you to link to five different Macs, with their shared libraries, and to access these through the AppleTV. It also has AirTunes - and it's simple to move with you (or you can even have several, all swapping content.) I don't see the limitation you're seeing.

    Didn't know about the 2-way remote for the BS5 - that's important news. Link? Discussed here?

    That is where Apple's solution lack, they don't manage large volume very well. I mean heck we are in version 7 and you still have a hard time breaking your library out on multiple hard drives or different computers.

    Really? I have some of my music on my Powerbook, a lot on the home server, some on another Mac - and I'm accessing it all with ease, even before I got AppleTV. Are you referring to iTunes for WIndows? I don't know that at all.

    I hope BS5 will speak Apple with ease, as I'd need something outstanding to wean me of my Mac-habit.

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