Is not a TV's performance with HD only part of the criteria of what constitutes the "best TV"?

Given that most peoples viewing will be composed of SD material,should this not be brought into the equation when discussing the BV7's performance capabilities?

Incidentally,why no mention of Loewe when discussing LCD TVs?

j0hnbarker:

moxxey:

j0hnbarker:

Oh dear…..what a really lame post this is.

John, and I concur that your post is equally as 'lame' if you believe that the BV7-40 MKIII isn't a) a quality TV made of some of the best components and b) can be bettered with a HD-sourced signal.

FYI most Panerai's were based until recently on a standard off-the-shelf Swiss ETA movement which was a <$200 component. You could argue that the markup on these watches was excessive. A PAM 111 was over £2500 in the UK, yet was a standard Swiss ETA. Your argument about the finest components doesn't stack up.

My sole reason for mentioning this watch was *only* that many others have exactly the same discussion. It's the same with Leica cameras. Why buy this when a Panasonic, with Leica lens, will do the same job? Can the Leica really justify the cost? Is it really the best on the market? The reason I brought the watch in to the discussion was that people comments on the watch, the build, the style and so on....but then whinge and even laugh when you mention the price. The wonder how on earth it could be justified?

Its the same with B&O equipment such as the BV7. The biggest argument *against* the BV7 is the price. Even you admit this yourself. However, the price is not going to change, dispite all the whinging on here and discussions about it not being the best set on the market.

Just out of interest, apart from the price (!), what improvements would you add to the BV7-40 MKIII, if you were B&O? What could you do better - apart from price - to improve this TV and make it the very best set on the market?

Instead of claiming my post is 'lame', come up with some suggestions what could be done to make it the best TV on the market, in your opinion. Tell us what sets you've seen, with a quality HD signal, that better than BV7?

If your argument is - like others - based again on the price/value, don't bother with this discussion and do not bother buying the set.

Yawn.

Sorry if my use of language was too ‘street’ for you Moxxey, as you obviously seem to have taken umbrage with my use of the term ‘lame’. Having re-read your post again it all becomes clear. I have to admit that I don’t know much about Panerai, and was actually quite shocked to hear that they bought off the shelf movements, but then if you’re happy paying a premium price for one of their watches in full knowledge that the major components are sourced way below that point, then fair enough. Come to think of it, how much does the panel in the BV7 cost B&O? At least you’re consistent with your logic.

What really grated was your glib assertion that a discussion about whether to buy a B&O TV could not contain any serious dissenting voices, as the underlying motive for any criticism of the BV7 must be the envy of those who could not afford one as you can. You may be in such a lofty financial position that you can sail serenely above the masses, untroubled by piffling matters such as price/value when considering whether to buy a B&O TV (hang on, wasn’t this the original topic of this thread), but please don’t throw your toys of the pram with the infantile ‘you don’t like it cos you can’t afford it’ line. In a serious debate where the original poster wondered whether he should keep his 7k in his back pocket for the time being, rather than making the BV7 purchase, is there not room for any of us to question whether he would be getting good value for money? I certainly hope that there is. If you disagree, then fair enough as that’s your call, and I hope you keep on posting about how price/value is of little relevance to this debate.

Incidentally – how would I improve the BV7? Get a better panel. From a better manufacturer. 100Hz technology would also be nice (we’ve been here before, haven’t we?).

 

well of course  B&O did not need to search out the best partners or make much effort to make huge improvements- the reason?

There were enough customers that believed that the super high price for what was a (samsung panel which is one of the worlds budget manufacturers) was worth it and they were getting the best in picture quality.

BnO wins the 'cool brand 'award and the ethos of the company changes to a type of arogance and the sales methods change from selling audio visual to selling a concept lifestyle in the same vein as say Ferrari , gucci, armani ect and many individuals aspire to that -if one was to be critical of this expense the stock reply would be- ah- you cant afford BnO! and yet in the field now of quality audio visual there are many better products that cost more and in my opinion make rather more of a statement about the individuals that own them- It shows they have made an educated purchase that is unque to them and that they 'know about audio visual products' Some of the comments on here really show that individuals should get out more and see whats out there.- High end products that can be updated by formware and softwre updates so that the product you purchased 6 years ago is the same as one off the production line now- doesnt that ethos make more sense when one is buying a very expensive product?

Bang and olufsen has the highest margins of any consumer electronics business- - how do they do that?? by putting the very best and latest panels in their expensive products?? The relationship with samsung indicates otherwise as does the attitude toward some existing products which have poor performance and  have progressively increased in price over the years- with no futher R&D input.

Clearly though, the BnO business model is not working anymore as even the most well healed customers take flight and sales dive.

The reponse from BNO is a very interesting one- they dismiss the CEO and then seek to appoint ' business development managers' in an effort to bolster the financial performance of flagging stores( there will be one near you!) in order to save them. Again this shows a lack of understanding of how critical the situation is for this business.

Many comments on here point to the fact that ' we underestimate the understanding that BnO has of its customer base' and yet the former instance and many others that I am not prepared to share on here indicate they still dont get it.

I actually like many products that made the company unique and I dont like constantly making posts that are very negative toward the brand - and this is because I feel that the management of B&O  and its actions equate more to riding a psychotic horse through a burning stable

We need to see more value- in technology- not price. And a return to the feeling that Bang & Olufsen actually care about the products that they are supplying to their customers- rather than the holy attitude which has evolved over previous years.

j0hnbarker:

You may be in such a lofty financial position..

Incidentally – how would I improve the BV7? Get a better panel...

John, FYI I bought my Panerai after my Father's death last year, as my Mother wanted us to buy something to remind us of him. It's not a case of being in a 'lofty position'. My example is justified - I was stating that people's perceptions differ based on what they believe is value.

John, you're coming across as spiteful. Looking through your recent posts, you can get a good example of why you seem spiteful. I don't know what you're being like that though.

Panel reference: if you believe you can better the BV7-40 MKIII with a HD source, then please let me know where this 'better panel' resides. I'm sorry, but you're very wrong. I don't see many TVs that better that picture, even without this missing 'better panel'. Also, how much added value would this missing 'better panel' add, exactly?

britops:

OT. I often skip long posts, anybody else? I'm sure a lot of effort goes into them but I don't have the time for a long read. I dive in and out of the forum several times a day. 

 

It's called TL;DR.  Too long; didn't read.  You see posted after long posts on forums where people with ADHD regularly hang out, like the World of Warcraft forums. 

moxxey:

j0hnbarker:

You may be in such a lofty financial position..

Incidentally – how would I improve the BV7? Get a better panel...

John, FYI I bought my Panerai after my Father's death last year, as my Mother wanted us to buy something to remind us of him. It's not a case of being in a 'lofty position'. My example is justified - I was stating that people's perceptions differ based on what they believe is value.

John, you're coming across as spiteful. Looking through your recent posts, you can get a good example of why you seem spiteful. I don't know what you're being like that though.

Panel reference: if you believe you can better the BV7-40 MKIII with a HD source, then please let me know where this 'better panel' resides. I'm sorry, but you're very wrong. I don't see many TVs that better that picture, even without this missing 'better panel'. Also, how much added value would this missing 'better panel' add, exactly?

This is getting way too personal. I've no idea exactly why you feel I'm being spiteful. I see this as an escalation of exchanges that has probably got out of hand now (and hijacked the thread, and will be boring to most readers). My only point is that I am tired of hearing the stock argument about B&O's critics not being able to afford their products. You peddled this. I reacted. I'm sorry if I offended you. Please don't conflate my comments about the purchase of your watch and your 'lofty financial position' with regards to the purchase of your BV7 though. You have taken these out of context, as they appreared in separate paragraphs in the post you quoted. I feel this level of manipulation of what I am saying is unfair. I have not done you a similar disservice.

I'm actually very pleased you're pleased with your BV7. As I have stated quite clearly, I am not in the market for a new set at the moment. I have a large B&O collection, and have no axe to grind with you or the brand, but simply don't rate the set and am uneasy with the direction the company is taking. If you put your head above the parapet, you might attract a few arrows, therefore neither of us can take the moral high ground here based on what we've posted. Given the increasing levels of animosity, I would suggest we agree to differ and leave it at that. Fair enough?

 

dilznik:

britops:

OT. I often skip long posts,.... 

 

It's called TL;DR.  Too long; didn't read.  You see posted after long posts on forums where people with ADHD regularly hang out, like the World of Warcraft forums. 

Thanks, I'll use "TL;DR" next time. 

I'm off to check out the WoW forum. 

j0hnbarker:

Fair enough?

Fair enough John. Thanks.

English isn't my native language. So I tend to be brief.

I like the fact this discussion has reached up to 7 levels aready.

IMHO this is what a forum is made for. 

Coolskin:

English isn't my native language. So I tend to be brief.

I like the fact this discussion has reached up to 7 levels aready.

IMHO this is what a forum is made for. 

 

What's the record for most posts ?

 

Richard

 

a2bur:

Coolskin:

English isn't my native language. So I tend to be brief.

I like the fact this discussion has reached up to 7 levels aready.

IMHO this is what a forum is made for. 

 

What's the record for most posts ?

 

Richard

 

That must be the "Is Soundproof an idiot?" thread, which never seems to run out of illustrative examples.

Don't know, really. There have been some long ones. 

a2bur:

What's the record for most posts ?

Must be this one!

moxxey:

j0hnbarker:

Fair enough?

Fair enough John. Thanks.

Well done the pair of you! No moderation needed and what could have become intensely personal settled amicably. I think this exchange shows that we really do have a very grown up set of members who are aware of the sensibilities of others. I do think that we have to be aware that we are all clearly privileged individuals and although not all of us would wish to spend £15000 on a new TV, we all have considerably more than the vast percentage of the world's population.  

I love the article on the official site telling why, because of the new auto colour calibration function, your new BV4 will be the only plasma still working to a reasonable level in a few years time.

Bit of a sickener fro those who spent 15K on last years model then

I find it quite amusing to read this thread...

Why are so many people on the B&O forum negative to B&O?

Well, as far as I know there will always be improvements of televisions, cars, new fancy equipment etc. If you want to wait for the best picture, you will never get it.

Ok, you can buy a new television every year for a few years for the price of one BV7-40, but I for one doesn't want a Panasonic, Philips, Sharp or whatever TV. Taht would look ridiculous next to the B&O equipment. I care a lot for design and looks, and I have to settle down with the fact that I don't always have the best picture available.

I still have my Avant with DVD player, but will probably change it for a BV7-40 when it comes with integrated BluRay player.

thavn:

I still have my Avant with DVD player, but will probably change it for a BV7-40 when it comes with integrated BluRay player.

Me too. I think its crazy buying one without. 

Buying B&O technology isn't as crazy as people make out, as long as you seek out the right technology. Buy a BV7-40 now and it should have a reasonable trade-in value in a couple of years, even with the launch of a MKIV in early 2009.

If someone had told me that, in 2004, I could buy a BV7-32 and then trade it in for 60% of the original value, in early 2008, I'd have thought they were mad. Effectively, I was 'hiring' a BV7-32 for three years at a cost of around £2300. That's a hire cost of £766 a year. If you placed these economics in front of people, buying B&O seems far more reasonable than people would imagine. However, the biggest issue is the initial purchase price.

I couldn't have justified buying a BV7-40 outright, if I didn't have my original BV7-32 to trade-in. That made the new TV far more affordable with the thought that it should still retain a value for the next couple of years.

Doesn't work with every piece of B&O kit though, but I think most people are safe with the BV7, BL2, BL3, BL9 and BL5's.

britops:

Me too. I think its crazy buying one without. 

No way. I don't agree at all. Blu-ray discs are very expensive and still not mass market. No other manufacturer is building Blu-ray drives in to their TVs (you'd have to be fairly sure you're doing the right thing to build it in - for instance, you need to have access to the Internet for sw updates etc) and you could quite easily pick up a PS3 or similar device and play your Blu-rays through that.

I think you'd be waiting a long time before the BV7 receives an internal Blu-ray drive. My guess would be a 100Hz panel update first, later this year.

Blu-ray will be a niche format. Downloads to harddisk are taking over, and fast -- in maximum two year's time this will be ubiquitous. (And Apple-TV users are enjoying the convenience today -- though there are many other providers offering their own downloads.)

moxxey:

britops:

Me too. I think its crazy buying one without. 

No way. I don't agree at all. Blu-ray discs are very expensive and still not mass market. No other manufacturer is building Blu-ray drives in to their TVs (you'd have to be fairly sure you're doing the right thing to build it in - for instance, you need to have access to the Internet for sw updates etc) and you could quite easily pick up a PS3 or similar device and play your Blu-rays through that.

I think you'd be waiting a long time before the BV7 receives an internal Blu-ray drive. My guess would be a 100Hz panel update first, later this year.

And that is why I am in no rush to get rid of my Avant. It may be obsolete but it has a built in DVD player, no different to the the newest generation BV7 and I'm pretty sure the picture quality of the Avant DVD is better than the BV7 DVD. 

Its like fitting a cassette tape in the new BeoSound 5. 

britops:

Avant DVD is better than the BV7 DVD. 

Not on a true HD source. That results in an outstanding image on the BV7-40. Even upscaled SD content through a HD channel is superb. General SD content - particularly football - will be better on the Avant. In fact, the Avant will be streets ahead on SD-based football.

However, whether there is a big upgrade from the Avant to the BV7-40 is debatable. Irresepective of the Blu-ray situation, I'd still hold on to your Avant for another year or so and see what happens with HD, 100Hz and so on. In a year from now, I'm sure the BV7-40 MKIV will be another step ahead of the current model, with HD.

Graham1982:

Reporter for MTV cribs: So David why did you buy a B&O Avant for your house

David Beckham: Erm because the people in the box open the curtains and face you when they speak. With my old TV I had to move my chair.

 

BTW, I am keeping my Avant before I can grap something that is worth in the B&O range.

Guy 

moxxey:

britops:

Avant DVD is better than the BV7 DVD. 

Not on a true HD source. 

I was only talking about the built in DVD player. Stating the case that an obsolete product can still outperform the latest BV7 when watching the same DVD in both machines, thus making it crazy to buy a BV7 until the player is updated to match the screen.

Yes, you're right. Indeed, SD-based DVDs are not great upscaled on the 1080p screen.

moxxey:

Yes, you're right. Indeed, SD-based DVDs are not great upscaled on the 1080p screen.

Full-HD is a miss, a shot in the dark. Only relevant if you have access to Full-HD sources, which from now on is Blu-ray discs. Downloading a fully enabled BD production, with full transparency audio channels, would require a lot of time, meaning the format is impractical for download.

Therefore, the only way of getting your Full-HD's worth of image is to buy BD or HD-DVD discs. And as the HD-DVD format is being discontinued, you're left with BD.

All broadcasts have set the limit at 1080i/720p, due to bandwidth constraints. This may change, thought it's very unlikely, given those constraints. For this reason, buying a Full-HD set really doesn't make sense, but since customers were clamouring for them, manufacturers were forced to build them. 

yes , it would have been better if they'd all standardised on 720p , imo that's more than good enough unless you go over 45 inches or so - and who has screens that big in their front rooms ?

the main problem as has been mentioned is that sd looks awful on 1080 but ok on 720

maybe bno were right all along ?