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ARCHIVED FORUM -- April 2007 to March 2012
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This is the first Archived Forum which was active between 17th April 2007 and 1st March February 2012

 

Latest post 02-19-2008 1:37 PM by Ericvr6. 57 replies.
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  • 01-27-2008 1:43 PM In reply to

    Re: Now when the war is over ...

    ....mr anders(son)

    Yes also what I'm told. Dual setup...

    The Dane

    Maybe this is as good as it gets... BV7-40 MKII, BL9, BC2, BL6000, MX4000, Beosound 3, HDR1
  • 01-27-2008 1:44 PM In reply to

    • AT
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    Re: Now when the war is over ...

    "... and Blue Ray is the winner"

    Are You sure?

    I agree in one term - It seems to me also, that the war is over. But I think: all HD disc formats are lost against to the DVD, and mostly: Against to DivX, and ... (HD) downloading.

    Take a look to the figures.

    For example, You can see in the audio business, that the only audio source you can purchase in the near future will be the CD, because currently all the rest is less then the 1% of the CD selling rate. And, if You check the quantity of the CD selling then You can also see, that it's going down day-by-day, and for example the Single CD production is closed due to unconcern. 

    This is also the same in the DVD business. If You check the numbers, than You can see, the the following:

    1.) The HD selling is so outnumbered by the DVD, that to say any HD can won, it's a little bit strange to me. For example, if You check the selling figures of the "Pirates of the Caribbean" in the DVD market, then You can figure out, that there were more then 10 million of DVD sold from just this film in just days - but only less then a 20% of this number was the total HD selling Worldwide, until today from the beginning. Please notice: The real battle was not between the new formats, but between the old and the new formats. 
    2.) There is not even a ONE(!) BR film/player rate, not even ONE(!) BR film/PS3 rate, which for me clearly shows, there was absolutely no interest for this format. Not even if somebody has the ability to play BR films!
    3.) After Warner made this very strange decision (the figures at that time was 50:50%, and HD indend to have a big lead in a short period!), against to the big words - the total selling of the HD formats gone down. Currently it's less, then it was during the "war".
    4.) And, if You check the figures for example on Amazon - You can see, there is only ~500 HD films are exists in the top10000(!), and only  ~300 from BR. There are approximately 50.000++ DVD on the market today, and I don't think there will be so many BR film any time. 
    5.) Just between us, both of Us know, that not even the DVD quality used most of the time. The BR mostly NOT uses the possibility. So, what do You think, how many films exists, which has a real better picture on a 1m diamater TV against to a DVD?

    So, IMHO, the war is lost - the CD and the DVD won, and they will remain until the online downloading will take over the market. The BR/HD DVD will go up to to the shelf, next to the SACD/MD/BETA.

    IMHO, if I were in Toshiba's place I used to say today: Yes, the war is over. From tomorrow, we will sell only HD DVD... for the price of a DVD.
  • 01-27-2008 1:57 PM In reply to

    • moxxey
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    Re: Now when the war is over ...

    jonnyb:

    So, er, what TV do you own?

    It's hard to have a discussion when you keep ignoring my main points...

    Oh come on - I talk daily about my BV7-40 MKIII. Let's drop the 24fps issues. Besides, you use a Sony LCD...

  • 01-27-2008 1:58 PM In reply to

    • AT
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    Re: Now when the war is over ...

    "Why don't you get a film on Blu-Ray and compare it with its equivalent on TV, sort your 24fps issue out... compare like with like and then come back to me?"

    Last time I did it with a top Panasonic 65", with a top BR player, and with a demo BR disc.

    The left side of the picture was the DVD version, the right side was the BR. In some(!) pictures, there was the difference of the better quality, but only, if You watched the screen from appriximately 1m. If You tryed to find the difference from 3-4 meters - sorry, in 99% You were not able to see it. And it was a super demo disc with the best BR quality, with a "demo" DVD quality... 
    with the top of the edge products.

    So, IMHO, the HD has a big advantage, if You have a 2m-3m diameter picture. At that size, there is no question, the HD is better. But in less than a meter diameter? A plasma/LCD quality against to a B&O MX or Avant? I think, it's a LOL, because the feeling to watch these CRTs are still and real better then to count the pixels.

    IMHO, of course.
  • 01-27-2008 1:59 PM In reply to

    Re: Now when the war is over ...

    AT,

    I guess that VHS outbattled the DVD in the beginning and you could say the same about vinyl and CD's. 

    Even DVD users would buy an upgrade.. Either HD DVD or BR...

    The Dane 

    Maybe this is as good as it gets... BV7-40 MKII, BL9, BC2, BL6000, MX4000, Beosound 3, HDR1
  • 01-27-2008 2:06 PM In reply to

    • jonnyb
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    Re: Now when the war is over ...

    I haven't seen your previous posts about your TV - I'm so very sorry

    What's with the sarcasm about the Sony TV - at least it does 24p!

    In my initial response, I wanted to helpfully explain about the reason for the judder you were seeing on your technically incapable B&O but I'm quite happy to let you wallow in your ignorance now.

    Enjoy!

     

     

  • 01-27-2008 2:09 PM In reply to

    • jonnyb
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    Re: Now when the war is over ...

    AT:
    "Why don't you get a film on Blu-Ray and compare it with its equivalent on TV, sort your 24fps issue out... compare like with like and then come back to me?"

    Last time I did it with a top Panasonic 65", with a top BR player, and with a demo BR disc.

    The left side of the picture was the DVD version, the right side was the BR. In some(!) pictures, there was the difference of the better quality, but only, if You watched the screen from appriximately 1m. If You tryed to find the difference from 3-4 meters - sorry, in 99% You were not able to see it. And it was a super demo disc with the best BR quality, with a "demo" DVD quality... 
    with the top of the edge products.

    So, IMHO, the HD has a big advantage, if You have a 2m-3m diameter picture. At that size, there is no question, the HD is better. But in less than a meter diameter? A plasma/LCD quality against to a B&O MX or Avant? I think, it's a LOL, because the feeling to watch these CRTs are still and real better then to count the pixels.

    IMHO, of course.

     

    Sorry - you've missed my point - we weren't talking about SD compared to HD. We were arguing about HD TV broadcasts compared to Blu Ray 

  • 01-27-2008 2:11 PM In reply to

    • AT
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    Re: Now when the war is over ...

    No, there is a big difference. IMHO, it's a wrong comparisation.

    The CD and the DVD had a lot, and unquestionable advantage against to the LP/MC and the VHS. The only problem was the price of them at the beginning. 

    The HD formats has nothing against to the DVD except the better quality. And that's not a value today.

    So, this battle a lot more seems to me the former battle between the DVD-A+SACD against to the CD. Which was a total failure. But, am I right, that there was also Sony's hand which ruined the ideas, the market, and everything else?

    Ps.: And just for fun, because of the delay: The HDD capacity went up so high, that not even a BR, not even a HDDVD can give You a solution to use them for backup. So they can't get into that market... IMHO the CD is still the mostly used backup/install media in the computer market. 
  • 01-27-2008 2:13 PM In reply to

    • AT
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    Re: Now when the war is over ...

    "Sorry - you've missed my point - we weren't talking about SD compared to HD. We were arguing about HD TV broadcasts compared to Blu Ray "

    You are right, sorry, I really missed Your point. My apology :( ;)
  • 01-27-2008 2:37 PM In reply to

    • moxxey
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    Re: Now when the war is over ...

    jonnyb:

    I haven't seen your previous posts about your TV - I'm so very sorry

    What's with the sarcasm about the Sony TV - at least it does 24p!

    In my initial response, I wanted to helpfully explain about the reason for the judder you were seeing on your technically incapable B&O but I'm quite happy to let you wallow in your ignorance now.

    I'm far from 'ignorant'. I understand the issues revolving around bitrates, codecs and compression. I also understand that 24fps support would do little to avoid pixelisation issues with certain blu-ray movies, for example.

    I'd rather prefer to compare the BV7-40 MKIII with a blu-ray DVD compared to how it would display on your Sony LCD, 24fps or not. For your information, I lent someone my PS3 with a Sony 32" LCD, mid-week. The first thing I noticed that his TV couldn't decode the PCM-based audio (which is a key benefit for blu-ray). The overall PQ was far worse than the BV7-40, too.

  • 01-27-2008 3:12 PM In reply to

    Re: Now when the war is over ...

    Goodness! Can we stop this silly argument now! I don't think either of you are ignorant at all! However not listening to each other could be a failing! Laughing

    I think we are comparing sheep and goats here. Obviously some Blu-ray discs are quite frankly poor - 300 seems to be a culprit. And some BBC HD broadcasts are very good - and they are. However to judge properly, the same material would need to be seen via both mediums. I am with Jonnyb on this one in that I would expect a Blu-ray Disc to be superior. However clearly moxxey is correct that the BBC HD version of Narnia eclipsed the discs he has seen so far.

    Moxxey has a BV7-40 Mk3 and has been the first to admit that SD broadcasts are not the best on this set. B&O admit as much themselves. Without comparing the Sony and the BV7 side by side, I would be unwilling to say which was better though I would hope that the BV7 would be pretty special with the correct signal.

    I think this argument started with someone trying to help the other rather than trying to be critical, so can we remember this  and remain courteous! Smile

  • 01-27-2008 3:14 PM In reply to

    Re: Now when the war is over ...

    Mildly ironic that the title of the thread is "Now, when the war is over..." Laughing
  • 01-27-2008 3:24 PM In reply to

    • ed7
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    Re: Now when the war is over ...

    Peter:
    Mildly ironic that the title of the thread is "Now, when the war is over..." Laughing

    i like that   lolLaughing

  • 01-27-2008 3:28 PM In reply to

    Re: Now when the war is over ...

    To Mr. Anderson's query concerning dual player or not from B&O.

    Was actually reported here. The B&O head of prod dev announced it at CES, following the news that a number of studios were pulling out of HD-DVD.

    You'll find more on this link, but you need to register: http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?p=493014#post493014

     

    For a good list of which transfers to HD are worth looking at, check out this link. You'll find that Ocean's 13 is ranked three steps down from the top quality:

    http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=858316
     

  • 01-27-2008 4:18 PM In reply to

    Re: Now when the war is over ...

    My dealer uses a PS3 to play Blu Ray movies on his BV9 in the showroom and the picture is spectacular. I also have a PS3 to play Blu Ray movies at home and I really enjoy the difference in clarity between Blu Ray and DVD. I don't know how we ever used to watch a VHS!
  • 01-27-2008 4:29 PM In reply to

    • cozza
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    Re: Now when the war is over ...

    Blueray players and discs are securely region coded at a fundamental hardware level. This film studio requirement means I won't adopt the format because the films I want will never be released locally, as has been the case with DVD. HDDVD has no region coding.
  • 01-27-2008 4:34 PM In reply to

    Re: Now when the war is over ...

    I can't be bothered with any of it anymore! Blue-Ray, LCD, Plasma, B&O... It's all a headache! Why didn't I just buy an Avant? It could have been so simple! Consumerism... look at the effect of it all. Happy Sunday!

    Simon.

    "We can rebuild him. We have the technology." 7-40, 7-2, 9000, BS3, BC2, LC2, BC6000, Beo5
  • 01-27-2008 4:46 PM In reply to

    • camshaft
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    Re: Now when the war is over ...

    Well in regards to a BR player, I think you should consider that when BR was newer, the PS3 actually had the highest quality playback.  I haven't bothered to check to see whether it'd still on top, but the point is we know it's good.  Sony knew from the start that the PS3 would be the major showcase of the new BR format.  They wouldn't skimp out on the BR playing aspects of the PS3 knowing that the future of the format was based on it.  Furthermore, my roommates and I were all science guys in college.  The lab my one roommate worked at needed high quality blue lasers for their optics/particle experiments.  They actually just bought a bunch of PS3's and cracked them open to get the blue lasers inside, because the quality was as good as the lab grade blue lasers which would have cost them more than the whole PS3.  I'm just trying to say, the PS3 is now slouch when it comes to playing BR.  And even if you don't play video games, you can use it as a media server from your computer.

     In regards to "the war" I'd be really surprised if BR didn't come out on top.  Have you guys seen how many major motion picture companies have already gone exclusively BR?
     

    In regards to picture frames, you guys also have to remember that some screen's will occaisonally show some stutter as they try to process 1080.  I'm not saying that's what's always causing frame rates issues, just that you can't immediately blame the movie recording.

     Austin
     

    -Austin (resident audiophile skeptic)
  • 01-27-2008 5:11 PM In reply to

    Re: Now when the war is over ...

    Ultimate AV-Mag is not in a second's doubt as to the superiority of PS3 as a BD player.

    http://www.guidetohometheater.com/news/1207poty/ 

  • 01-28-2008 1:07 AM In reply to

    • Dave
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    Re: Now when the war is over ...

    moxxey:

    I'd rather prefer to compare the BV7-40 MKIII with a blu-ray DVD compared to how it would display on your Sony LCD, 24fps or not. For your information, I lent someone my PS3 with a Sony 32" LCD, mid-week. The first thing I noticed that his TV couldn't decode the PCM-based audio (which is a key benefit for blu-ray). The overall PQ was far worse than the BV7-40, too.

    A sony panel would want to be worse than the BV7 40, at 15 times the price Unsure

    Strange argument for a B&O forum lol! 

    Simon has got a whole in one in my opinion, lets all just buy an avant and enjoy superior AV at a fraction of the cost and complications.

    “Quality is never an accident; it is always the result of intelligent effort.”

    Your health and well-being comes first and fore-most.

     

     

  • 01-28-2008 5:29 AM In reply to

    • AT
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    Re: Now when the war is over ...

    Is the war really over? ;)

    Yes, maybe, but the fight for survival will start now...

    Just a day after my message, and the new free, and totally legal music downloading site is up, and running with an approximately 25 million songs:

    http://www.qtrax.com/whatsonqtrax.php

    I think, if it will be a success - and IMHO, it will be -, than there will be just a year or two, and You can download all the films You need, even in HD formats. So therefore there is no need for a new medium to hold Your films, because You can hold them easily on a hard disc, or in the near future: On memory cards. For even free, but mostly, legally.

    So, yes, the war is over. The free and legal downloading, and on line support won the battle in the audio. And because it's the same business, 
    IMHO it will happen very soon in the video business. 

    Ps.: Sorry, no Ipod support yet on Qtrax... but if You add the Itunes  to this site then You shell receive - no more new plastic media needed to play the music in the future.

    I think, it's the end of the mechanical players age.
  • 01-29-2008 3:13 AM In reply to

    • AT
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    Re: Now when the war is over ...

    The war is over. The fight has just began for the survival. There can be only one...

    The three studio denies the Qtrax agreement, but Amazon started to allow downloading all the music (not for free) globally..

    The show must go on...
  • 02-18-2008 3:25 PM In reply to

    Re: Now when the war is over ...

    So what do we do?

    I'm considering a new BV7-40 instead of my Avant DVD, but I don't want to have the the BR discs in a separate box, like a PS3. I guess i'll just wait and see then. The normal DVDs will work properly in the BR player, right? So when B&O replaces the DVD player in the BV7 with a BR player there is no negative aspects of this. Have I understood this correctly?


    BV10, Avant DVD, BL5, BL4000, BS2300, BV6-26, MX 4002, 2xBeocom 6000, LC2

  • 02-19-2008 2:54 AM In reply to

    • moxxey
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    Re: Now when the war is over ...

    I doubt you'll see an internal blu-ray drive in the BV7 as B&O would be the only manufacturer to ship a TV with blu-ray built-in. The format is not that secure and, as we know, B&O like to see how the market develops. At the moment, the primary source of blu-ray playback is through the PS3 or external blu-ray drive.

    A PS3 is a superb option. It's only £270, very quiet, you can use it as a media device (audio, photos, videos) and, of course, you can play top games such as Burnout Paradise. I'm no gamer, but this game has me hooked! First time I've played any game for years.

  • 02-19-2008 4:46 AM In reply to

    Re: Now when the war is over ...

    B&O need to get moving with this. As previously discussed they need to differentiate themselves from other manufacturers with considerably cheaper and arguably better Plasma/LCD screens. Adding a BluRay reader to the BV7 would enhance it's attractiveness. Quite frankly I buy B&O because it is a beautiful, I do not want a PS3 or any other box hanging off the side when B&O could integrate the BR into the set. They have had plenty of time to research this and so with format war now over it is time for action. B&O need to be a market leader not a laggard.
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