355f:

I just dont believe the sort of the people that buy B&O -----

1. dont care what it costs at all- skys the limit. 7 times the cost 15 times the cost- not an issue

2 are oblivious to any other brands,  and the fact that they perform better for 1/7 of the price

3. dont care if its technically years behind ( in some cases)

From my experience of talking to various B&O customers around Bath, 3. is something that they don't really take in to account. However, as I've said many many times, the people who have made money and the people who know how to deal in money, generally are also the people who are most prudish with their spending. Yes, they might go out and spend £6K on an Avant CRT six years ago, but six years ago a top-end Sony CRT could cost £3K or more. Therefore, you might as well buy B&O and spend a few extra grand....as you knew that B&O meant durability and quality service.

However, in 2008, there are no CRTs. Most B&O customers do not want anything larger than a 42" screen. Most only want a 32". They see the ads in the Times, Telegraph and so on, from the likes of John Lewis, and see that a Sony 42" would cost them around £700. That's now the on-the-street ballpark figure they have in mind when they want to upgrade their old CRT (remembering that six years ago, the gap between a top-end Sony CRT and a B&O CRT, wasn't huge).

They walk in to the B&O store, check the 32" screens and find that the BV7-32 is nearly £7K, including the stand. The problem is that the price difference between a previous 'quality' brand such as a Sony - arguably the main competition in the CRT days, when the B&O customer last bought their TV - and 2008 B&O kit is massive. Almost 10x the price, compared to 2x the price in 2001.

I'll finish as I've started - people with money are prudish. That's why they have the money. My landlords won't replace anything in haste. They'll always repair and try and repair again, rather than replace (even if it's a washing machine). Yet these guys have a £2million property portfolio around Bath. I know for a fact that, when they wanted a 32" LCD for their new workout room, they were astonished to find that a 32" LCD in B&O started at £3K. They had expected to pay around £1.5K, tops. Even they read the papers :)

Alex:

Bingo:

moxxey:

Bingo:

Now they think they found out the wheel again with a camera on the new Beovision4 .

I saw a $7,500 dollar price mentioned for the 50 inch new Beovison 4 without speaker but if this includes the Beosystem 3 which was always part of the Beovision 4, there must be a dramaticly price-reduction on its'w way.

http://www.i4u.com/article13929.html

Erm, it doesn't. The price ($7500) is for the plasma screen only. So, repackaged Panasonic 50" for $7500, without the BS3. Gulp.

 

So you not even can connect a thing for 7500 dollar ?

That is exactly what will bring B&O into bigger trouble. They are out of the reality in A/V-land.

I doubt they will find dealers enough in the future who want to sell this hugely overpriced stuff.

 

The price of their top end systems isn't an issue, at least in the UK (the US market may be different). The kind of people who can afford a high end B&O system are willing to pay the prices.

Just look here for the answer

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/viewdetails-6584818.rsp?pa_n=1&tr_t=buy 

beolife:

Alex:

Bingo:

moxxey:

Bingo:

Now they think they found out the wheel again with a camera on the new Beovision4 .

I saw a $7,500 dollar price mentioned for the 50 inch new Beovison 4 without speaker but if this includes the Beosystem 3 which was always part of the Beovision 4, there must be a dramaticly price-reduction on its'w way.

http://www.i4u.com/article13929.html

Erm, it doesn't. The price ($7500) is for the plasma screen only. So, repackaged Panasonic 50" for $7500, without the BS3. Gulp.

 

So you not even can connect a thing for 7500 dollar ?

That is exactly what will bring B&O into bigger trouble. They are out of the reality in A/V-land.

I doubt they will find dealers enough in the future who want to sell this hugely overpriced stuff.

 

The price of their top end systems isn't an issue, at least in the UK (the US market may be different). The kind of people who can afford a high end B&O system are willing to pay the prices.

Just look here for the answer

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/viewdetails-6584818.rsp?pa_n=1&tr_t=buy 

Great, but how many of B&O's customers live in virtually taste-free 5 million quid houses? It's naive to think that their core customers willingly throw cash at anything that's got a B&O badge on it simply because they can afford it. That said, what about 'the rest of us' who have to work and save to buy these products? Lose this market and B&O will be shafted.

j0hnbarker:

beolife:

Alex:

Bingo:

moxxey:

Bingo:

Now they think they found out the wheel again with a camera on the new Beovision4 .

I saw a $7,500 dollar price mentioned for the 50 inch new Beovison 4 without speaker but if this includes the Beosystem 3 which was always part of the Beovision 4, there must be a dramaticly price-reduction on its'w way.

http://www.i4u.com/article13929.html

Erm, it doesn't. The price ($7500) is for the plasma screen only. So, repackaged Panasonic 50" for $7500, without the BS3. Gulp.

 

So you not even can connect a thing for 7500 dollar ?

That is exactly what will bring B&O into bigger trouble. They are out of the reality in A/V-land.

I doubt they will find dealers enough in the future who want to sell this hugely overpriced stuff.

 

The price of their top end systems isn't an issue, at least in the UK (the US market may be different). The kind of people who can afford a high end B&O system are willing to pay the prices.

Just look here for the answer

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/viewdetails-6584818.rsp?pa_n=1&tr_t=buy 

Great, but how many of B&O's customers live in virtually taste-free 5 million quid houses? It's naive to think that their core customers willingly throw cash at anything that's got a B&O badge on it simply because they can afford it. That said, what about 'the rest of us' who have to work and save to buy these products? Lose this market and B&O will be shafted.

My point exactly, quite apart from the fact the house price boom is well over many dealers seem to think they can still survive on a few barking mad millionaires. Obviously BnO think this to- problem is they opened so many stores in the UK they are fighting for  amarket that doesnt exist 

One thing for sure Im pleased im not a BnO dealer because with management attitude its rather like riding a psychotic hourse through a burning stable

 

beolife:

Just look here for the answer

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/viewdetails-6584818.rsp?pa_n=1&tr_t=buy 

Actually, seeing this makes me less likely to buy B&O. I earn a better-than-average wage, thanks to hard work, but 99.8% of people are not in this bracket. The average B&O customer doesn't live like this. Yes, they might have a property portfolio and/or high disposable income. However, they didn't inherit this, they became this way through hard work, prudent spending and good investment.

Steve, I didn't quote you and you're attached quotes to save on space! You raise an interesting point but there are more than enough people with plenty of money ready and willing to splash out on B&O equipment, so this alone should be driving B&O to come out with better products.

Chris, it also depends on area of course so dealers in parts of Central London, Greater London including Surrey and Kent, Brighton, and where I am here in Bath are to name but only a few dealerships in the UK which will continue to flourish because of money in those areas. I am fairly new to Bath but there is a lot of money here and many parts of Bath and North East Somerset are afluent. My £12,000-£15,000 purchase on B&O was merely a drop in the ocean compared to many customers that walk into the Bath showroom. They are setting up people's homes with purchases between £50,000-£100,000 more often than you may think and I have been in the shop myself when such customers have been in ordering more.

You work in the IT industry. I know this sector well as I was a software tester up to my late 20s and had worked in IT since leaving school at 16. My brother also worked in IT for a lot longer than I did before he took over the family business in 2004. Salaries in that sector are high, particularly if you are contracting and it seems you are as you have mentioned in previous posts about getting ready to submit your tax forms. A lot of people work in that sector as you know; just as many work in banking, stock broking, people in highly paid retail positions such as Senior Merchs and Buyers and a whole host of other well paid jobs accross all kinds of sectors. They represent a large proportion of the workforce nationally so I really wouldn't start thinking there isn't a lot of money around. Perhaps people are a little more careful with their spending, but it isn't because of a lack of money.

And, Steve, believe me, many people do inherit. Of course a lot of hard work is done by people before them, whatever generation, but a lot are born into money. Philip Green who owns the Arcadia group and BHS; he was born into money. Richard Branson was born into money; David Ross (who setup the Carphone Warehouse, he was born into money. He is the son of Mr Ross who started Ross foods; all of the so called 'dragons' in the Dragons Den program were also born into money, they simply used it to buy/setup what they did. There are millions of these people worldwide.

With regard to property, while many investors are English, most people with the larger portfolios are foreign, who invest in this country because it offers the best profit compared to anywhere else in the world. The English property market is stable, secure, safe and profitable. Many of the Asian communities own property. Anyway, I am dragging this on a bit but I really wanted to make the point that there is a lot of money in people's pockets.

Simon.

If this is B&O's market, then they don't need the stores -- they'd do wonderfully by going "underground" and supplying super high-end A/V to select customers, working through developers, interior designers, a/v customizers and their own bespoke services. (Which, by the way, is what Goldmund is doing.)

B&O would then only need a few flagship stores or demo-centres in specially chosen locations.

As pointed out above, there's a disconnect between the price-point of a number of the products, relative to what else is available in the market, and the large footprint of B&O today. Quite a challenge. They need products that are relevant to those who walk by their stores every day - given the high-street locations of most one can surmise that passersby will be weighted towards the higher-income segment in the total market, they still need to have value for money in order to attract enough new customers. (As we know here, B&O is not a brand you become instantly familiar with!)

 

 

I think, there is no doubt, that B&O's name still sounds good, and mostly if money is not a question. Because usually that class is not thinking, not looking about prices, and not looking personly for solutions, but leave the interior design to the stylists.

So I'am agree, there are several people who can spend ANY money to a/v products, but, they will not purchase some common thing, just like an Audi speaker(!), a Samsung mobile(!), when they can afford a Ferrari, or even the diamond based limited Nokias...

IMHO, there is no problem if B&O chooses this segment, but, in this case, B&O MUST forget the cheap products, and have to price their product a lot higher! But, it is only acceptable, if B&O has a solution for 
everything, and if B&O will be the market leader, and has the best products on the market. Just because, without this the owner will be a snob who purchase incredible expensive goods without knowing anything about the World.

What was the question twenty years ago? Q: Why did You purchased a so expensive B&O? A: Because it's the best, and amasing product on the entire human universe. 

What's the question today: Q: Can You afford it? A: Yes/No. 

Is it the same? IMHO no. Just like black/white, ying/yang, these arguments are totally the opposite.

And if the new owner will notice: There is no HDMI on the systems, no DAB, and so on, and he needs it, or will figure out, that there is no SACD/HD possibility, then - according the previous  - he will surely, and easily replace the whole system without any question. And if there will be only some of them, the B&O name will go lower and lower,  and it will be nothing else, but the "common, default factory standard a/v system", which MUST be replaced after purchasing something. 

And only some people in this area is enough to destroy the B&O name.

And why?

Because they can afford it. And if a brand can't fulfill their needs, than they will choose a different one. Even for a lot more money.

So, at the minimum: B&O must have at least a terrible, incredible highly priced solution for everything they need.  

Because, if the rumour will rise, that it's not the best, there are no solutions, and so on, than the name will be down in just months, not even years.

And, after this: Who will buy a B&O? Who can afford it - will not buy it, who can't, can not forever.

And, for last: If a house is on sale, which includes a B&O system (worth 1/20 of the whole price), is NOT the same, as to sell a GBP 100.000 system to somebody. IMHO who want, and can purchase a GPB 5M house, then he will not care about the B&O. If he likes the house, he will purchase it, even with B&O even with not.

So, I don't think, that nowdays a B&O system makes any difference in the decision to purchase a house, or not. 

BMW makes a 1 series.  People who buy it like to know they're buying a BMW.  It's a decent car for a good price and it lets people who normally would've been stuck with a GM, have something a little better.

BMW makes a 7 series.  People who buy it are buying a status symbol.  It's a pimped out car for a massive price that lets people who buy it say to the other people "suck it" because they have a great car that may or may not be worth it.  They didn't need to spend that much but they did because they can.

 

BMW has diversified to build up the widest and largest owner base that they can, which makes them money.

 

B&O has diversified to build up the widest and largest owner base that they can, which makes them money.

 

You know? 

/

dilznik:

BMW makes a 1 series. 

[...]

You know? 

To compare BMW to B&O is not a real good thing IMHO, just check the figures:

Revenue €49 billion (2006)
Employees 107,079 (2007)

I think, it's a totally different ligue...

So, IMHO Your argument at first time sounds good, but not for the second time.

I think, the BMW1 and the BMW7 doesn't represents the company, because the company also includes the Rolls Royce, the F1 BMW-Sauber team. Let's forget the rest ;)

As You can see, the BMW porfolio is a lot wider, because it's includes also the Mini as a trendi car, and also a Phantom, which is a really dreamcar. But will BMW ever 
let the Rolls Royce create a "Mini Rolls"? Never! Why? Because, You MUST specify the customers, 
to whom You intend to sell something. And if You intend to sell unique, and higly priced product, then there is no possibility to sell cheap products. Not a miracle that BMW left Rover alone, 
because they were not as good, as the BMW standard. 

In this way, a BMW1-BMW7 price range is nothing against to their difference to the Phantom. I don't think that a BMW7 has any real less in any paramater, against to a Phantom, but due to the brand name, a Phantom MUST be priced as high, as possible, and the BMW... to...

Reasonable.

In short term: The BMW1-BMW7 really differences in the size, but they are the same if You check the whole palette of BMW. And, if You check the whole pricelist, then You can see, that a BMW1 can be almost as expensive as a "cheap" BMW7... the total difference in the price is approximately 2-4 times. But, if You compare the BMW1 and BMW7 against to the opponents (in the same category of course), than You shell figure out, that they have very reasonable(!) prices, and they costs almost the same, 
as the opponents. Try to use the pricing on a BMW1 or BMW7 as B&O tryes to do it, and You shell see what will happen very soon: Nobody will purchase them.

And do You think, a "fan club" can save a brand like this: The problems are not correct, the only problem is, that You 
can't afford it? Who want a BMW, must to pay for it? For example 7x more, than a Mercedes AMG?!

No, it will surely not work.

So&IMHO a BMW1-BMW7 comparisation to B&O was available in the past, when for example a BS3000/BS3200's price was depended on what You intend to purchase, or when there was the MX3500-MX5500 possibility to get the SAME quality in different size.

But to put a Rolls sticker on a Mini... sorry, IMHO it's not a future, because nobody will purchase the "Rolls Mini" (or even for a short period, just to say, I own a Rolls - even doesn't know what ROLLS mean...), and nobody will pay the price for a BMW Phantom, because it will be not a premium brand any more.

Even it's the best on the entire planet.

But, if it's overpriced, and not the best - it's just takes a sort time to sell it to Tata... er... to sell it to Samsung.

IMHO.

AT:

So, IMHO Your argument at first time sounds good, but not for the second time.

Bingo:

The televisions are the trouble with their value in my opinion.

You cannot be believable and be taken serieous when you charge 16000 euro for a 50 plasma with a Panasonic screen nowadays.

Now they think they found out the wheel again with a camera on the new Beovision4 .

I saw a $7,500 dollar price mentioned for the 50 inch new Beovison 4 without speaker but if this includes the Beosystem 3 which was always part of the Beovision 4, there must be a dramaticly price-reduction on it's way.

http://www.i4u.com/article13929.html

i tend to agree here like giving someone a cheap diamond wrapped in the most expensive box

it is possible that becoming a 21st century well recognized brand like Aston Martin worldwide has allowed B&O managers to think that it was possible to add any indecent mark up to their products for there was an economic boom out there. Now things are changing and one cannot ask stupid prices anymore for what can be seen around.

B&O will have to adapt somehow soon...

 

But, just for fun: Aston Martin was the part of the Ford Motor co., so it was not a manufacturer in the last ten years, but only a brand name, which became successful only with the extraimly lots of support (tech(!) and money) from Ford.

Anyway, I think, the Aston Martin prices are reasonables, even if I can't afford it, but yes, I still say, they are fantastic cars. 

But, my problem with B&O is the total opposite, I can afford them, but I don't think, they worth that money, they asking for. 

AT:

As You can see, the BMW porfolio is a lot wider, because it's includes also the Mini as a trendi car, and also a Phantom, which is a really dreamcar. But will BMW ever 
let the Rolls Royce create a "Mini Rolls"? Never! Why? Because, You MUST specify the customers, 
to whom You intend to sell something. And if You intend to sell unique, and higly priced product, then there is no possibility to sell cheap products. Not a miracle that BMW left Rover alone, 
because they were not as good, as the BMW standard. 

In this way, a BMW1-BMW7 price range is nothing against to their difference to the Phantom. I don't think that a BMW7 has any real less in any paramater, against to a Phantom, but due to the brand name, a Phantom MUST be priced as high, as possible, and the BMW... to...

 

Things are never what they seem to be.  In 2009 or 2010, Rolls Royce is coming out with a smaller Rolls based on the BMW7.  It will be about 168000 euros. 

linder:

It will be about 168000 euros. 

I do remind you the title of this thread is 'Value for money!' 

Henry:

linder:

It will be about 168000 euros. 

I do remind you the title of this thread is 'Value for money!' 

You are right.  I was trying to be facetious by pointing out there is a less expensive Rolls coming.  Car analogies don't really work well with A/V products. 

If I were looking to acquire my first B&O system, I think the best value with the most wow factor and terrific sound for the money is Besound 4 and Beolab 3s.  In light of the current situation, you cannot go wrong with that combination. 

"It will be about 168000 euros."

The Phantom's MSRP is $333,350, which is EUR 218,000. It's the same category IMHO.  It wil be not
cheap. And not the BMW7 price will be higher. They will share the technology, and parts. Of course, if they are the same company.

And, plans are plans, let's see it ;)

http://www.leftlanenews.com/rolls-royce-ceo-sheds-more-light-on-smaller-sedan.html

"That puts its MSRP around $215,000. The price is roughly $100,000 more than the 760Li sedan from parent company BMW. The price tag will position the new car squarely against the Bentley Arnage."

I think, it's not the same strategy, it's just the same as the MX3500 versus MX5500.

BMW try to fill the gaps in the palette, and made a deceison to run a Rolls against to a Bentley. But, IMHO, that is not a question, that the Bentley is a premium car also ;)

Anyway, if we try to compare the two strategy, then I suggest another comparisation:

Currently B&O used to try the following:

They intend to make some facelift on a BMW5, and race it against to an Arnage for a price of a Phantom. And, when somebody says, I think a BMW7 is a better choice, than this car, for a lot less price the fan club yield up immediately... You can't afford it, and that's the problem.

No, the problem is not here. The problem is the following:

Today, there are several A/V company which offers You full and wide range product range for a reasonable price. And You can easily get this information.

B&O tried to widen the product range, but in this way they made huge gaps, against to for example BMW, which against to it, perfectly filled all the gaps.

I think, they have to move back - less, but carefully selected products, which covers even only a small part of the A/V business. 

Please notice, I'am not against the price differences, because it is the normal way. Of course, fe. a larger TV costs more, then a smaller one. But I think, the premium category has nothing to do with the "cheap" thinking.

I should have posted this here but wented to the Torben - sacked thread. Never mind -

" I don't mind paying for what I know I'm getting - I understand the differences in tooling costs for casting tools, plastic injection moulding tools and engineering costs when the products are destined for low volume versus high volume markets, however I still think B&O are taking the mickey on their current TV costs (if not their entire product range). Costs can spiral to cover for weaknesses elsewhere in their business plan - if this is the case it is not healthy. If the costs are spiralling because they believe they have a customer base willing to pay then this is even more worrying for the future.

I know ther are those that will pay the price regardless, even for product that many think are weak but I believe engineering, features, design and quality will always sell - past reputations however will not!

Just my opinion!"