Picking up on a US posting [here] by Menahem, what is the experience in the UK regarding Arcam vs modern B&O for quality (and price)?

Even Richer Sounds sell some Arcam equipment (at a modest discount.)

Graham

EDIT See posts below regarding use/abuse of Bass & Treble

EDIT 2. See posts re component quality

All companies sell equipment that has a place in the market. The approach to the market varies and hence companies like Arcam. Linn, Sony and B&O can co-exist. Arcam products are, in my limited experience, excellent. The boundaries between products have blurred more and most companies will have good remote integration, some have multi-room facilities and some have the latest cutting edge facilities.

My opinion at present is that B&O are in transition: I think the BV10 will be an extremely important product - as it will be a very B&O product rather than looking like all the other flat set screens. The BV8 is different too but the ledge puts me off; too much of a dust trap. The next year should see development of Masterlink to bring it up to date and to make the BS5 more useful. These will allow B&O to differentiate themselves from the pack.

The quality of B&O products remains good - the finish is better than at many points in its history. We must be careful not to look at the past with rose tinted spectacles - remember double sided tape in the 80s! And red capacitors in the 70s.

My major complaint with sound quality is the way some dealers insist on demonstrating equipment. At a function the other night I heard a demo of Beolab 3s which made them sound bass heavy - I imagine a Beolab 2 was involved - but the effect was to remove detail in a cloud of overblown bass. No doubt loudness on and free standing switch despite being up against a wall. The last time I heard this, I went and changed it all, but frankly I couldn't be bothered this time. Made me leave pretty smartish though. Comparing the same tune through my vintage set up revealed detail and music, not boom. Very sad.

Peter :

My major complaint with sound quality is the way some dealers insist on demonstrating equipment. At a function the other night I heard a demo of Beolab 3s which made them sound bass heavy - I imagine a Beolab 2 was involved - but the effect was to remove detail in a cloud of overblown bass. No doubt loudness on and free standing switch despite being up against a wall. The last time I heard this, I went and changed it all, but frankly I couldn't be bothered this time. Made me leave pretty smartish though. Comparing the same tune through my vintage set up revealed detail and music, not boom. Very sad.

Many end users too. When I collect systems prior to sale they are almost always set on maximum bass  and treble and more often than not with loudness on as well!

The reason for selling is normally quoted as "upgrading"!

Not wishing to hijack the thread, but does everyone else notice this as well. The demo of the Beolab 9s has stuck with me and I can only think of them in this mode despite setting them up later properly. Only the Beolab 5 seems immune because it sets itself!

Peter :

Not wishing to hijack the thread, but does everyone else notice this as well. The demo of the Beolab 9s has stuck with me and I can only think of them in this mode despite setting them up later properly. Only the Beolab 5 seems immune because it sets itself!

I'll try to hijack it back (and edit the title!)

My (adult) children and nephews etc always seem to have max bass and treble set on equipment. This combined with the tendency for record producers/ broadcasters to record music loud and flat in the first place makes a mockery of quality Hi Fi equipment. Wrt  Arcam I notice that their latest AV receiver will detect and moderate high sound volume adverts on TV channels, so as time goes on quality manufacturers are getting cleverer with their products, the music makers are producing flatter louder music, and too many end users are happy with clipped downloads ramped up to max bass and treble. Are these trends all inter-related in some way?

Graham

The Arcam/B&O posting resulted in questions re abuse of Bass & Treble (see later posts above).

What is the general experience? Should we conclude that, in the hands of many, good equipment is abused (and is therefore a complete waste of money for some?)

Graham

Depends on your definition of wasted. I think most equipment is badly set up and compromised by the settings within which it is expected to operate. However if it gives pleasure and is appreciated by its owner, it cannot be wasted.

I use the Loudness function on my Beomasters 8000, 6000 Quad and 2000. I listen to a lot of guitar music and some hip hop, where having an accentuated bass sound is all part of the listening experience. B&O put these buttons on their amps - there must have been a reason, and surely it's not simply cos the cloth eared masses demanded it?

I tend to agree w/ j0hn here to a degree...

With little ones running about, most of my music is played at low volumes... at levels the LOUDNESS feature was designed to enhance. I use it!

I have no problem with tone controls and loudness buttons per se. I just dislike loud music being played with the bass and treble ramped right up as a demo to a crowd of people in a showroom. Makes the system sound awful to my ears. In one own's home, tone controls can be very useful to deal with compromised settings with lots of soft furnishings. At the nd of the day, people listen to music in the way they like and are quite right to do so. I expect dealers to be aware of how to demonstrate equipment to bring out the best to show it off to what should be a sophisticated audience.

I'm with Jeff

The Loudness function is just that. Enhanced 'loudness' at low volumes, that then disappears as the volume is...increased!

Always sounds good to me :)

In the early days, loudness was sometimes called a "physiological" filter, because that is what it does - it compensates for the properties of the ear. At low volumes, the ear is less sensitive to lows and highs. Anyway, I still don't usually use it, as the effect is a bit too much for me with most equipment. Besides, I live in an apartment, and it is the bass (from Pentas...) that annoys the neighbours - I'll rather have less boom and a bit more overall volume.

Generally I keep my amps set up "straight", but during the last days I have been test playing a BM5500 I just repaired, with recently refoamed CX50's. To me, these sound the best when I turn on loudness and turn down treble a couple of notches. Simply cranking up bass doesn't give the same effect...

Peter :

I expect dealers to be aware of how to demonstrate equipment to bring out the best to show it off to what should be a sophisticated audience.

joeyboygolf:

When I collect systems prior to sale they are almost always set on maximum bass  and treble and more often than not with loudness on as well!

The audience ‘should be sophisticated’ (- the products are). However, in the real world (also) the sales/consumption of ‘sophisticated’ luxury, where B&O rather belongs, is quite often driven by rather unsophisticated money/motives, indeed…

It would be interesting to see how much the kind of a customers referred to by joeyboygolf actually contribute to B&O’s overall sales?! Hopefully, it’s not that some dealers just apply the cliché in sales that the customer is always right:  the reported cases of them ‘forgetting’ to set the sound adjustments back to where they are supposed to be after a product demonstration would then serve as a rather worrying clue.

Hi Graham and all,

A great thread which went off in all directions!!!

I get a few of the newer B&O in for service, and I see a lot of the passive components sourced from China or Korea. It's the passive components which determine long-term reliability of any electronic product, so all I can conclude from this, is that at B&O today, long-term reliability is not a priority.

Peter, you mentioned the ghastly red capacitors of the 1970's. Well, I look at it differently. In the 1970's, there was not the enormous choice of passive component manufacturers that there are today, and B&O had a limited choice.

The fact is, that they chose very good quality components (ROE or Philips), at the time. That the components did not last, is not really B&O's fault. In fact, it is testament to B&O's (then) philosophy of overengineering, that the BeoMasters survived (in spite of failing passives), and now with a complete capacitor change, and realignment, they can be brought back to life, to a standard even higher than then.

Today, B&O has a massive choice of suppliers of passives - Chinese/Korean garbage, or European/Japanese quality (even if actually produced in the Far East). They choose low-end quality. That disturbs me. They could very easily continue to source Vishay components (Vishay bought out most of the manufacturers which B&O used in the old days), and the increased cost on the BoM (bill of Materials) for each BeoSound, or BeoVision, would not be more than a few Euro's.

If you open up an Arcam unit, you will find only the highest-quality carefully selected Japanese/European passive components.

That to me, signals a totally divergent approach to quality-control, as compared to B&O.

When I restore vintage B&O, which I love doing, I get a tremendous amount of pleasure doing it. Part of that pleasure is in the freedom of choice I exercise in selecting the different types of passive components, according to their function in the unit, to bring out the most pleasurable sound for my customers.

From what I see on the PCB's, it's apparent that Arcam design engineers have that same freedom of choice, but their B&O compatriots definitely are restricted.

SHHHHHH - And keep this under your hats - the Arcam distributor in Tallinn - Estonia sells for about 20% under the UK price. Full factory worldwide warranty, but you have to go there to pick it up - seems like a nice excuse for a weekend trip!

And McIntosh, well, you other chaps have had your say !!!! Too many words spoil a good thread!!!!

And, yes, on my own stunning BM3400, the LOUDNESS button is permanently engaged (but I modified the circuit highly, so the sound is just so pleasurable).

IMHO, the most desireable BeoMasters are the BM4000, and BM4400's. I don't own one, but I have restored a couple for customers, and there is very little (at any price) which can deliver their powerful, clear, musical sound. Again, testament to B&O's long-dead built-in lifetime quality.

Long live vintage B&O!

Menahem

Thanks for some very interesting insights Menahem!

I am tempted to alter the first post heading again because there is so much more here than 'Arcam v B&O' or the 'loudness' issue. Let's hope someone in Struer picks it up!

Graham

burantek:

I tend to agree w/ j0hn here to a degree...

With little ones running about, most of my music is played at low volumes... at levels the LOUDNESS feature was designed to enhance. I use it!

Defining the "degree" I mentioned...

Had an opportunity tonight (first in a long time) to have an extended listen to my BL5000 system.

I turned off the LOUDNESS and had a very pleasurable evening! When re-engaging, it sorta' sounded "fabricated."

P.S. All tone controls were NEUTRAL...

I nearly always never really adjust or use bass, treble and loudness on my 6000,8000 and 6500 systems.

It depends on how good the source is recorded.

As long it sounds balanced its ok.

I had the option to listen the 180 gram vinyl of Dark side of the moon with Beogram 8002 and Beomaster 8000 + Beovox M150 on volume 5.0. It did not need any adjusment at all.